Tackling the hard questions and quandaries of Faith

25 Prophets in the Quran

Adam
Idris (Enoch)
Noah (Nuh)
Hud
Shaleh
Ibrahim (Abraham)
Lut (Lot)
Ismail (Ishmael)
Ishaq (Issac)
Yaqub (Jacob)
Yusuf as (Joseph)
Ayyub (Job)
Shu’aib (Jethro)
Musa (Moses)
Harun (Aaron)
Dzulkifli (Ezekiel)
Dawud (David)
Sulaiman (Solomon)
Ilyas (Elijah)
Alyas’a (Elisha)
Yunus (Jonah)
Zakaria (Zachariah)
Yahya (John)
Isa (Jesus)
Muhammad

"The Islamic definition of a Prophet is someone who has been chosen and favoured by Allah to convey his message to the people on earth and to bring them to believe in and worship him alone. In Islam there are two types of Prophets, Nabi and Rasul.

A Rasul was a messenger of Allah who was given a new Shariat (codes of law) from Him. And a Nabi was also the messenger of Allah, but he was not given any new Shariat and followed the shariat of earlier Rasul. “Every messenger is a Prophet [Nabi], but not every Prophet is a Rasul [Apostle].

A Prophet is always a Nabi by birth, but a Prophet become Rasul when he officially receives the post and declares it. For example Muhammad was Nabi by birth, but became Rasul when he officially got and delivered the message of Risalat at the age of 40.

The Rasul [Apostle] receives the message from Allah in many different manners such as, vision during sleep, direct communication with angels when he is awake. i.e., he can see and speak to the angels during communication of Divine message. But the Nabi [Prophet] differs from the Rasul in that he does not see the angels when awake but sees during sleep.

The Rasul is higher in rank than a Nabi."
 
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RJM said:
In the Absolute Truth thread you list: Muhammad, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Adam, Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha -- along with Jesus and Baha'u'llah. Probably the Bab too? Is this your full list of anointed messengers?
Paul would seem pass this test?
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Paul made no claim.

People have started putting lists together of possible Messengers. Here is one list someone has attempted.

Prophets - Bahai9

bahai9.com bahai9.com

Personally I see we need to be anxiously concerned with the needs of our age.

Regards Tony
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Is it possible, if the conversation is civil, to do this without a person being insulted?
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Entirely possible – scholars do this all the time. The religions do so at the highest level – invariably when we're in the bounds of 'social media' that problems arise.

It has even happened here often.

I can list the people to whom I listened, and who have taught me lessons ... @juantoo3 is one who is still around, Wil is another – and we had royal handbagging sessions in the past.

BobX was always able to offer documentary evidence that would unsettle my certainties.

As for 'challenges to faith' – the biggest challenges I faced were from theology lecturers on my degree course, who were unflinching in popping bubbles when it was necessary, and knew what they were talking about.

+++

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
If a valid answer is provided, one that challenges one's own faith, is it possible to just agree to disagree?
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Depends on whether the disputants seek harmony, or whether one or both are there to 'win'.

Sometimes IO is like 'Top Trumps' – I can agree with you as long as I can trump what you just said.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I see we can.
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I know we can, if we choose to.
 
Well look, Baha'i and Muslims have their beliefs, and that's for them to tell and me to learn. But when they outright attack my beliefs, and tell me to modify my beliefs -- the Trinity for instance because they say so -- that's for me to defend and sparks may fly -- especially Baha'i when they pay lip-service to respecting the beliefs of others? Then I will go in and point out the problems and inconsistencies with their own beliefs, as I perceive?

Leave my religion alone. Tell me about yours?
 
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RJM said:
Well look, Baha'i and Muslims have their beliefs, and that's for them to tell and me to learn. But when they outright attack my beliefs, and tell me to modify my beliefs -- the Trinity for instance because they say so -- that's for me to defend and sparks may fly -- especially Baha'i when they pay lip-service to respecting the beliefs of others? Then I will go in and point out the problems and inconsistencies with their own beliefs, as I perceive?

Leave my religion alone. Tell me about yours?
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Therein lays the Quandary RJM.

The process of telling a person of another faith and the foundation of its teachings, may indeed have the challenges you noted. One can openly and honestly discuss the challenge, or agreee to disagree.

Is it not our own pride that is being hurt if we react badly? Is it not our own perceptions that veil us from the light that others may be able to offer?

Regards Tony
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Therein lays the Quandary RJM.

The process of telling a person of another faith and the foundation of its teachings, may indeed have the challenges you noted. One can openly and honestly discuss the challenge, or agreee to disagree.

Is it not our own pride that is being hurt if we react badly? Is it not our own perceptions that veil us from the light that others may be able to offer?

Regards Tony
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Words alone aren't anything ... lots of words often say less, imo
 
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RJM said:
Fire my heart ...
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Reminded me of a poem

But a moth

I am but a moth smitten by thy flame,
If I want to dive in, can I be put to blame?

Flame devourers, ashes fall to the ground,
spirit released, now not mortal bound.

What can I say upon that very day?

T'was your love that called me in
Who am I to reject a whim?

I am but a moth smitten by the flame,
If only I could dive in again and again.

Oh would that thou let me choose this path,
To the lovers in Iran, would flee my heart.

TBS 2 June 2015 (But a moth) 🙏

Regards Tony
 
RJM said:
Words alone aren't anything ... lots of words often say less, imo
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Therein also lays the quandary of Faith and the Word we accepted is of God.

The Word becomes everything. Words that are as mild as milk to newborn babies, or as a sword as in Hebrews 4:12-13, "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.."

Regards Tony
 
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Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Reminded me of a poem

But a moth

I am but a moth smitten by thy flame,
If I want to dive in, can I be put to blame?

Flame devourers, ashes fall to the ground,
spirit released, now not mortal bound.

What can I say upon that very day?

T'was your love that called me in
Who am I to reject a whim?

I am but a moth smitten by the flame,
If only I could dive in again and again.

Oh would that thou let me choose this path,
To the lovers in Iran, would flee my heart.

TBS 2 June 2015 (But a moth) 🙏

Regards Tony
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There once was a lady who dressed in fine velvet and lay with her lovers on cushions of gold

Surrounded by music and elegant circus, she beckoned the wanderer to step from his road

Alone she embraced him in ivory chambers, where hummingbirds danced to a sandalwood sun

And sweetly the traveler squandered his history, bartering comforts for battles he'd won

Forgetting the highway that rolled past the window; forgetting the fact that he carried a name

A snowflake he fell to the warmth of her bosom, and died like a moth on the rim of her flame
 
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Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Hebrews 4:12-13, "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.."
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What is your personal take on the meaning of this passage? I don't take it to mean the spoken word of God via a book or messenger. It's not about words. I take it to mean God's presence 'closer than breathing.'

It is present and personal and ongoing spiritual guidance, every day

Do not be wise in your own eyes;
Fear the Lord and depart from evil.
It will be health to your flesh,
And strength to your bones.
Honor the Lord with your possessions,
And with the firstfruits of all your increase;
So your barns will be filled with plenty,
And your vats will overflow with new wine.
Proverbs 3:5-10

The name Baha'u'llah cannot reasonably be substituted, nor that of any messenger or prophet. It's not about words. It is the living and personal presence, imo
 
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RJM said:
What is your personal take on the meaning of this passage? I don't take it to mean the spoken word of God via a book or messenger. It's not about words. I take it to mean a personal relationship with God 'closer than breathing.'
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I see it is all about the Word of God which is the standard we are to live by and the judgement we face.

It is penetrating and finds the true intent of our heart, it judges our sincerity and our willingness to pick up the cross and follow Christ.

There are many other great passages about the Word of God.

Matthew 4:4
"But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

The Word is our spiritual sustenance and the Word of God always unfolds to fulfil its purpose ,Isaiah 55:11 "So shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it."

Regards Tony
 
RJM said:
The name Baha'u'llah cannot reasonably be substituted, nor that of any messenger or prophet. It's not about words. It is the living and personal presence, imo
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It is good to note that Baha'u'llah translates as the 'Glory of God', or "Glory of the Lord".

The Name itself has inexhaustible meanings, just as Christ does.

Regards Tony
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
is good to note that Baha'u'llah translates as the 'Glory of God', or "Glory of the Lord".
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Yup. He changed his old name and took the glory of God for himself, lol

I do believe you use the Bible only to try to make it confirm Baha'u'llah, not for any deeper meaning. That's just my own personal opinion, of course, but it's why I personally find it almost impossible to have a proper conversation with you.

So ... I'm out
 
I tried to do this in this in the "Christian response to ..." thread.

Claims were made about the doctrine of the Trinity
I responded to those claims showing where I thought they were wrong.
No-one actually argued in favour of those claims.
Thus, in my mind, the claims stand.

I think religions would serve themselves better if they leant on their own strengths, rather than attempt to destabilise others by claiming their doctrine is defective.

"We all believe the same thing, only my belief is slightly better than yours ..."
C'mon.
 
@Tony Bristow-Stagg has no other interest than selling Baha'u'llah. I'm not buying -- so there's no point going on within a closed loop, across multiple threads imo
 
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