Tackling the hard questions and quandaries of Faith

[RJM]

Personally I think the Prophet was preaching against local polytheism, and also against I rather believe are misunderstood teachings of Christian doctrine

I think so too. But Muslims believe the Quran is the (direct) word of God?

As ever, you are free to believe what you believe, and I support your right to do so ... but when my beliefs are mis-represented, then I am right to point that out.

I hope you don't stop

 

[Cino]

Is it possible, if the conversation is civil, to do this without a person being insulted?

If a valid answer is provided, one that challenges one's own faith, is it possible to just agree to disagree?

I see we can.

Regards Tony

Some thoughts (these are my ideals, I aim for them but certainly don't reach them consistently)

My experience is that the best way to go about this (agreeing to disagree) is to use "I-messages" instead of absolutes.

And to be mindful of telltale words like "but" or "you", in such a context - upon noticing that I am writing a sentence containing these words, I've found it good to step back and really examine my motivation for writing such a sentence, and only post it if I still think it is a good idea to do so.

Also, I think there are at least two sides to exploring the quandaries of faith. One is to gain more understanding about my own doubts, and to be able to hold space for doubt. The other is to get the opinion of others, who might have some insight I am lacking.

In the past I have sometimes tried to convince others of things I was myself secretly doubting. Nowadays, when I manage to notice myself being really passionate about bringing across a point about some belief, I understand this as a useful pointer for myself that here is something I want to bring more attention and lucidity to, in myself. I need other people around me for me to notice this, poor them... but it's give-and-take and evens out in the end, at least I hope so.

 

[RJM]

I'm reading this Oxford translation of the Qur'an at the moment and getting a better sense of flow than my other Arberry translation

 

[Thomas]

Didn't always use to be like that, though.

In the old days of the Big Religions, there were Defenestrations, Cardinals storming out on each other and unilaterally changing single words here and there in the prayers... even the Buddha wasn't above arguing with opponents until their heads would literally explode, if the old texts are to be believed...

Nigh on all the popes of the middle ages were 'lawyers', they had that training ... which my theology lecturer said, "And if that doesn't set off alarm bells, you've got your eyes shut."

The schism between East and West was a real slanging match, by all accounts.

I don't know enough about individual cases, but I know when John XXIII was chosen in 1958 it was after 11 votes, he was a low-born commoner, a rank outsider, and regarded as a 'safe pair of hands' who wouldn't rock the boat, but sit in the chair until he snuffed it and someone more suitable came along.

Then, blow me down, he calls a Vatican bloomin' Council!

He said: "We were all made in God's image, and thus, we are all Godly alike." which is worth remembering.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Highly recommended.

How do you do that yourself, @Tony Bristow-Stagg ?

Which beliefs of yours are you questioning right now?

The questions I ask myself are not about Faith, but about how I share that Faith. There is much guidance on the topic and it all boils down to our own self.

How to balance the instructions to share the wisdom, against the instructions not to share with those that do not want to hear.

All that in the knowledge that the peace and security of humanity will not be found unless and until its unity is established and that unity cannot be established while the counsels of the Pens of the Most High are passed unheaded.

Baha'u'llah said the perversity of mankind will long continue. I am starting to consider this may be more hundreds of years, God help us all if it is, it's been 180 years since the dawn of a new day.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Some thoughts (these are my ideals, I aim for them but certainly don't reach them consistently)

My experience is that the best way to go about this (agreeing to disagree) is to use "I-messages" instead of absolutes.

And to be mindful of telltale words like "but" or "you", in such a context - upon noticing that I am writing a sentence containing these words, I've found it good to step back and really examine my motivation for writing such a sentence, and only post it if I still think it is a good idea to do so.

Also, I think there are at least two sides to exploring the quandaries of faith. One is to gain more understanding about my own doubts, and to be able to hold space for doubt. The other is to get the opinion of others, who might have some insight I am lacking.

In the past I have sometimes tried to convince others of things I was myself secretly doubting. Nowadays, when I manage to notice myself being really passionate about bringing across a point about some belief, I understand this as a useful pointer for myself that here is something I want to bring more attention and lucidity to, in myself. I need other people around me for me to notice this, poor them... but it's give-and-take and evens out in the end, at least I hope so.

God knows, (My wife as well) I am a very inpatient person, and God knows I am always tested.

Heck we live in a town of 1200 people and you still have to wait at an intersection sometimes to turn the corner, how frustrating, but then tourist season we may have to wait for 3 vehicles, maybe even 5 God forbid, it's infuriating.

I tell my wife I want to shake humanity and say get over it, we are one people on one planet, be loving, nice and kind to each other, stop raping the planet, let's look after each other and the earth. Heck, is it that hard, if it is, then let me out of here!

Does that reflect in my posting style?

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Then, blow me down, he calls a Vatican bloomin' Council!

He said: "We were all made in God's image, and thus, we are all Godly alike." which is worth remembering

In the context of the OP, there was a Pope in the 1800's that did not Tackle the hard questions of Faith, the challenge that Baha'u'llah sent to him.

Tablet to Pope Pius IX (Heck that is one powerful Challenge) "....Say: If ye deny this Revelation, by what proof have ye believed in God?....."

Now what happened to that Pope, what happened to the Christian Empire of that time?

The quandary the Christian can choose to consider, is if that declaration to the Pope was indeed God given, that the neglect of that Message unfolded in the events the Pope and the Church, (and humanity) as as a whole, faced in that day and then in the resulting explosion of many alternate Christian theologies, bringing about the 1000's of denominations of the Church. Heck I live in a town of 1200. There are 5 churches none go to each other's.

There is also 3 pubs, one with pokies, so that may explain it.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

So far, I had made my objections to a specific text. If you'd rather discuss another text, then I am open to suggestions.

If you can read the Tablet to the Pope in post 67 and reply to the challenge given by that tablet.

"Say: If ye deny this Revelation, by what proof have ye believed in God?"

(Edit, there is no compulsion to do so Thomas, but that Tablet drives my, repeat my, impatient urgency for change)

Regards Tony

 

[Modesty]

The questions I ask myself are not about Faith, but about how I share that Faith. There is much guidance on the topic and it all boils down to our own self.

How to balance the instructions to share the wisdom, against the instructions not to share with those that do not want to hear.

All that in the knowledge that the peace and security of humanity will not be found unless and until its unity is established and that unity cannot be established while the counsels of the Pens of the Most High are passed unheaded.

But that's the thing that makes it so hard to peaceably have these sorts of conversation. It seems to me that you're basically saying you think everyone should convert to Baha'i.

The questions I ask myself are not about Faith, but about how I share that Faith.

So you're not questioning whether your beliefs are correct, just how to get others to believe them too? Don't you think other people feel that way about their religion, that they don't want to question it? Maybe they've looked into Baha'i and decided they don't think its correct. Doesn't mean they haven't intelligently thought that through.

 

[Thomas]

In the context of the OP, there was a Pope in the 1800's that did not Tackle the hard questions of Faith, the challenge that Baha'u'llah sent to him.

Tablet to Pope Pius IX (Heck that is one powerful Challenge) "....Say: If ye deny this Revelation, by what proof have ye believed in God?....."

I should imagine he dismissed this as did everyone else it addresses, as another example of a self-declared prophet.

Let me offer this:
When I first came across, entirely by chance, a collection of essays in the spirit of the Perennial Philosophy, The Sword of Gnosis, I read one short sentence by a Tibetan Buddhist, and knew in my soul I needed more of this, it was luminous ... I purchased the book, read every essay, and in short time acquired the writings of René Guénon – a Sufi – a growing library of Frithjof Schuon – another Sufi – and found my way to Platonic Philosophy and the Fathers of the Church ...

Having got well over half way through the Tablet, I see no luminosity at all, just hyperbole.

Under the influence of Plato and Aristotle, I draw a distinction between rhetoric and sophistry ... and sadly I place this writing in the latter camp.

When I was doing my degree, a course tutir, reading an essay, said: "You write longer sentences than Augustine, and he wrote long ones. In Augustine's case, one got the sense there was something worth reading, in yours, I'm not so sure ..."

Accept my apologies when I say I feel the same way about the Tablet.

Keep them as a reference core text, to be sure, but get someone to edit it, strip out the histrionics, and write something short and succinct and makes the point. Lead with that in your proselytising, and leave the originals to the scholars and the converted.

The quandary the Christian can choose to consider, is if that declaration to the Pope was indeed God given ...

There's the rub. I'm not convinced it was.

... and then in the resulting explosion of many alternate Christian theologies, bringing about the 1000's of denominations of the Church. Heck I live in a town of 1200. There are 5 churches none go to each other's.

Blame that on America! You can spout any old nonsense, set yourself up, by law, as a bona fide religion, and off you go!

 

[Modesty]

In the context of the OP, there was a Pope in the 1800's that did not Tackle the hard questions of Faith, the challenge that Baha'u'llah sent to him.

How do you know he didn't tackle the hard questions? Maybe he read it and decided it was false.

 

[Thomas]

If you can read the Tablet to the Pope in post 67 and reply to the challenge given by that tablet.

Why? You want to shift the subject onto your terms?

Fair's fair, mine was first. And now I have answered #67, will you respond?

"Say: If ye deny this Revelation, by what proof have ye believed in God?"

Well as neither my revelation nor yours is not empirically 'proof', lets not start bandying that one about.

And I've given clear reasons why I think the arguments for your 'many mirrors' analogy is flawed with regard to Christianity.

Suffice to say I believe in Christ by virtue of His words and His deeds.

I can appreciate the luminosity of other sacra doctrina – I've been discussing the Bhagavad Gita elsewhere – there's a profound spiritual commentary – Oppenheimer aside – I dip into Buddhists texts from time to time ... I cannot find their near in Baha'i writings.

That's me ... sorry.

+++

The 'many mirrors' flaw – it's a logical fallacy, but I can't remember which one. But basically –

A: All prophets say certain things
B: Therefore all prophets are the same.

Logically, B does not necessarily follow A, so the mirrors analogy does not necessarily apply in every instance.

 

[Thomas]

How do you know he didn't tackle the hard questions? Maybe he read it and decided it was false.

There was a TV show in the UK – House of Cards. It went to the US.

In the Brit version, the central figure (Francis Urquhart) used to smile when questioned and say "You might possibly say that; I couldn't possibly comment"



(Although I rather spoiled it by commenting, but that was before I read your post – I wish I'd waited!)

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

But that's the thing that makes it so hard to peaceably have these sorts of conversation. It seems to me that you're basically saying you think everyone should convert to Baha'i.

That is difficult. Will that happen, maybe eventually, but it would not be for a long while. This key to a Lesser Peace is a unity in our diversity.

The challenge has been recorded, it was asked,

"Say: If ye deny this Revelation, by what proof have ye believed in God?"

I see that challeng would be impossible, for all people, of all Faiths, as to deny one, is the denial of all, to prove one,is to use that proof for all.

So maybe it will be that the Lesser Peace unity we need to be based on our agreed set of Faith born values. The problem we now face is, that Faiths (and no faith), inclusive of Baha'i have overwhelming put aside many Faith given values in the wave of a modern materialism, based on an unbridled freedom of liberty, that has veiled God given Councels.

It is written in prophecy, that humanity as a whole will try to do away with religion and ultimately find that does not work, that Faith is needed for unity. It is then that humanity as a whole will turn back to scriptures to find what teachings are more suited to this age.

I do not see any significant change will be made until that time. Meanwhile what else can be done? For me it is paramount to impart that the Baha'i Faith does stand out in that future choice, that what is recorded in the Baha'i Writings is as valid as any of the Holy Books. The arguments of Faith are as valid as any other.

As to a Unity in our Diversity, it appears it will need to be a unity in that we agree to disagree on many aspects of life but the God given Virtues and Morals. Our laws will have to again reflect those morals and virtues.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

So you're not questioning whether your beliefs are correct, just how to get others to believe them too? Don't you think other people feel that way about their religion, that they don't want to question it? Maybe they've looked into Baha'i and decided they don't think its correct. Doesn't mean they haven't intelligently thought that through.

From what I understand, if a person has with no predudices has intelligently thought that through, then it may be they are already following their Faith and are already a Baha'i.

I like this thought, Abdul'baha was asked by a reporter what it was to be a Baha'i in 1912, before the first world war and replied.

“To be a Baha'i simply means to love all the world, to love humanity and try to serve it; to work for Universal Peace, and Universal Brotherhood.”

If we practice a God given Faith, should we not already be practicing that?

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Having got well over half way through the Tablet, I see no luminosity at all, just hyperbole.

Whis is a quandary I see the Tablet has produced. A quote from that Tablet.

"...Beware lest human learning debar thee from Him Who is the Supreme Object of all knowledge, or lest the world deter thee from the One Who created it and set it upon its course..."

All the best Thomas. Know in life that I am for naught but peace, so maybe, finally, I will now bow out of many RF discussions on doctrine. But heck someone may ask a question of me or of faith! Quandary for me.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

How do you know he didn't tackle the hard questions? Maybe he read it and decided it was false.

Maybe. Do you think that is what happened?

Do you know what happened to that Pope? Baha'u'llah advised him to put it all aside.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Suffice to say I believe in Christ by virtue of His words and His deeds.

Exactly how Baha'u'llah asked you to judge Him and how the Bible askes us to judge.

Where does Baha'u'llah part from this judgement, in favour of Jesus?

Regards Tony

 

[Modesty]

Maybe. Do you think that is what happened?

I don't know what happened. But he was the head of the Catholic Church, obviously completely committed to his faith and as Pope, extremely well versed in Catholic theology and the justifications for being a Catholic. You're also obviously committed to your faith and have your strongly held reasons for being Baha'i- would one letter make you abandon your religion?

Do you know what happened to that Pope? Baha'u'llah advised him to put it all aside.

Yes, and I've heard people say it was a good thing that the Popes lost much of their secular power, which is corrupting, and now more rightly focus on the Church and the spiritual realm. Of course I know there are varying opinions.

 

[Modesty]

So maybe it will be that the Lesser Peace unity we need to be based on our agreed set of Faith born values. The problem we now face is, that Faiths (and no faith), inclusive of Baha'i have overwhelming put aside many Faith given values in the wave of a modern materialism, based on an unbridled freedom of liberty, that has veiled God given Councels.

It is written in prophecy, that humanity as a whole will try to do away with religion and ultimately find that does not work, that Faith is needed for unity. It is then that humanity as a whole will turn back to scriptures to find what teachings are more suited to this age.

I do not see any significant change will be made until that time. Meanwhile what else can be done? For me it is paramount to impart that the Baha'i Faith does stand out in that future choice, that what is recorded in the Baha'i Writings is as valid as any of the Holy Books. The arguments of Faith are as valid as any other.

I agree that the Baha'i faith is as valid as any other, of course. Thankfully, I also think there's reason to be optimistic about the fate of religion. I don't think we will ever abandon it. It's inherent to our humanity.