You said:
"Times change, God changes Laws ... "
Implies God 'changes' – a temporal determination.
The Mystery of God’s Will Unfolding in this Matrix 2
- Thread starter Tony Bristow-Stagg
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"Times change, God changes Laws ... "
Implies God 'changes' – a temporal determination.
I rather think all you read is through the lens of Baha'i writings ... that's the point.
Any number of things are possible. Whether they stand up to analysis is another question ...
That, again, is an assumption that lacks credibility – that's retro-fitting the text to suit the circumstance.
OK, but it's not Abrahamic, that's my point.
Then I think you're labouring under a misapprehension.
Can you show me where in the Bible you see the human is created with a dual-aspected spirit, one divine and one satanic?
Again, where in any Abrahamic materials does it say that?
This is rather a dualist view, common to Hellenism (which influenced gnosticism), but not the Abrahamic perspective.
At every stage of the creation, the work of every day, God looked on what He had made, and saw that it was good (cf Genesis 1:4, 10, 12, 18, 21, 25) and looking back on the work of six days, God saw all that He had made, "and they was very good." (Genesis 1:31).
The Christian sees the world as a 'theophany', it's there in Judaism, and it's there in the Sufi teachings (as ever, orthodox Islam strictly preserves the utter transcendence of God).
There is no darkness inherent in human nature as such, rather our union with God was occluded (but not severed), by the Fall. Human nature is spoken of as wounded or corrupted, but not intrinsically evil or satanic – that is from without.
The idea of the material creation as a place of darkness, of punishment or privation, or even a divine pedagogy (a la Origen), is wrong from the Abrahamic viewpoint.
In fact not only the Abrahamic, but the Asian religions would likewise refute the idea of evil being inherent in the soul.
Here I think is a crucial distinction, with regard to how we see the 'light'.
In the Abrahamic Traditions, the Light is the Divine (thus no one, not even angels, can possess it.)
In the New Testament, Christ is the light (cf John 1:4)
In the text you cite, we have:
As to the fourth degree of spirit, it is the heavenly spirit, which is the spirit of faith and the outpouring grace of the All-Merciful.
The 'grace' of the All-Merciful is a Divine attribute conferred upon the individual – it's a Gift of God, and it is God.
This spirit proceeds from the breath of the Holy Spirit ...
Rather, it is the Holy Spirit. The 'breath' is not 'other than' – it was the life that animated humanity (Genesis 2:7).
... and through a power born of God ...
No, it is the Power of God, not something moved by the power of God.
Then when we get to the 'fifth degree of spirit is the Holy Spirit' – there's actually no real ontological distinction between the two – the teaching has interposed an artificial distinction to set humanity at a distance from the Divine.
... Whensoever it appears (the fifth, the Holy Spirit), the world is revived, a new cycle is ushered in, and the body of humanity is clothed in a fresh attire... it transports the world from one condition to another ... a new cycle is inaugurated.
The implication here is the Holy Spirit belongs only to the 'Messengers' as the Baha'i would have it, rather than all humanity, as the Abrahamics teach.
This is my main contention – the teachings raise a veil between the Divine and the human – it denies the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the soul of the individual which is the mark of faith and by which we cry "Abba, Father" (Romans 8:5).
It is an adage of the Fathers that "The Holy Spirit reveals the Son, the Son reveals the Father," and all this happens in the soul, the spirit does not 'reflect' the Son (who thereby remains at a distance), the Son does not 'reflect' the Father (ditto) – the Holy Trinity is immanently present in and to the soul, and makes it one unto Itself.
A very Christian way of putting it, but in principle this is what all the great Traditions say.
In the Hindu Tradition we have tat tvam asi, (Sanskrit: 'thou art that'), which expresses the relationship between the individual and the Absolute.
No, read again. I said with regard to one, two and three, there was nothing new or original, and this is one version among many. It ignores mineral spirit, for example, but I did not let that delay me.
It's when one comes to the distinction between four and five that it goes off the metaphysical rails.
Then you miss the crucial point.
Exactly. Which is not what the Questions Answered is saying – it's saying that only the Messengers have the Holy Spirit.
LOL, the number of times I've been told someone's 'looking outside the box' then they put Christian Mysteries back in the same old Hellenic-Gnostic box!
A general clue: Looking outside the box reduces the number of degrees between the Divine and the human, not multiply them, as you do.
I missed this – the crucial distinction in a nutshell.
In the Abrahamic Traditions (indeed, I would say all traditions) – there is no such intermediate state – it's 'I and Thou', it's 'Thou art It'.
Looking at the Abrahamics from a Baha'i frame of ref, I can see that.
Looking at the Baha'i interpretation of the Abrahamic, from within the Abrahamic, all I can see are theological errors and a radical failure to grasp the central Mystery and Infinitude of Divine Love.
+++
From time immemorial He hath been veiled in the ineffable sanctity of His exalted Self, and will everlastingly continue to be wrapt in the impenetrable mystery of His unknowable Essence. Every attempt to attain to an understanding of His inaccessible Reality hath ended in complete bewilderment, and every effort to approach His exalted Self and envisage His Essence hath resulted in hopelessness and failure.
Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings, No. XXVI, pp. 48--9/62/63
This is a tragic statement on so many levels.
And this is so wrong, demanding an everlasting dependence on the guru, rather than the guru guiding the disciple to learn to walk on his own legs and dependent only upon God, imo.
Thank you @Thomas this is the break-point imo
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Modesty
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I respect that this is what your religion teaches, but as an avid student of religious studies, I have to be honest; all religions are not compatible.
All religions are compatible but Baha'i is more compatible than others ...
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
That is 100% correct, they are the embodiment of the Holy Spirit. (I see that is what the Virgin Birth Tells us) Even though Jesus was born from the womb, the Annointed Ones are in Reality Born of the Holy Spirit, they are pre-existing, the First and the Last.
We who are human, are given a soul at conception and then must be born again into that Spirit.
We need Faith (the Spirit of) to be born again, into that Spirit thus the two positions are now reconciled.
Those that truly beleive can reflect the Spirit of Christ from the mirror of our hearts. When one says they beleive, it dies not necessarily mean they are yet to be born again. Funnily enough, I was going to start an OP on that this morning. How a declaration of Faith is nothing without truly being born again. (Thomas, that is also 100% applicable to Baha'i, that is why we also struggle to be true to Christ)
Now we are also starting to reconcile what is Heaven and What is Hell. Heaven is nearness to the Holy Spirit and all that it has Given us, Hell is remoteness from that Spirit.
The Anti-Christs are those that recognise the carriers of that Spirit, the Messengers, yet try to take thay power for themselves.
All the best and much happiness, Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
That is what you saw, I did not imply it Thomas. I can quote a lot on the changeless aspect of God, this short passage from Baha'u'llah will suffice.
"...This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future..." — The Kitáb-i-Aqdas
We are born in a world of change, a world that is cyclic, 4 seasons.
Now we can also reconcile that Faith also goes through seasons. Yet a 'Day of God' a Dispensation also goes through Springtime, Summer, autumn and winter before the cycle starts again. God's Covernant ensures we will never be left without guidance.
Abdul'baha said it very well I this short quote.
"..O Lord, Thou hast said in Thy manifest Book and in Thy great Glad Tidings with explicit statement: "God does not change that which a people have, until they change what is within themselves." "And when they forgot God, He made them forget themselves." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Bahá’í Scriptures, p. 407
That self is the Image we are made in, our potential of embracing Christ. When we consider our potential and what Abdul'baha said above, deep reflection is required. What is actually from our own self, and what is actually from the potential within.
Now the wisdom Muhammad gave, as to submission unto the Word and the Laws becomes manifest.
Now I can ask you a very honest question Thomas and we can ine and all reflect for our own selves as to the answer.
What does the Bible say in regards to Marriage and relationships outsideof Marriage?
How we respond to what the Bible offers, is also how far we are willing to submit to the Laws of God. Will we forget our own self, the Christ within, in preference to our material desires?
These are all massive subjects.
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
Thomas, have you analysed what Abdul'baha offered on this topic? Abdul'baha gives a talk on Daniel, Revelations chapters 11 and 12 and Isaiah 11. These interpretations are what Baha'is mostly draw upon.
A spoiler is offered.
Daniel
https://www.bahai.org/library/authoritative-texts/abdul-baha/some-answered-questions/4#340198067 (Daniel is mentioned after reference 20)
Revelation 11
www.bahai.org
Isaiah 11
www.bahai.org
Revelation 12
www.bahai.org
[\spoiler]
Regards Tony
https://www.bahai.org/library/authoritative-texts/abdul-baha/some-answered-questions/4#340198067 (Daniel is mentioned after reference 20)
Revelation 11
Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library
A collection of transcriptions of table talks given by ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá in ‘Akká between 1904 and 1906 in response to questions posed by Laura Dreyfus-Barney, an American Bahá’í resident in Paris, and first published in 1908. The new edition, extensively retranslated, was published in 2014.
Isaiah 11
Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library
A collection of transcriptions of table talks given by ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá in ‘Akká between 1904 and 1906 in response to questions posed by Laura Dreyfus-Barney, an American Bahá’í resident in Paris, and first published in 1908. The new edition, extensively retranslated, was published in 2014.
Revelation 12
Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library
A collection of transcriptions of table talks given by ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá in ‘Akká between 1904 and 1906 in response to questions posed by Laura Dreyfus-Barney, an American Bahá’í resident in Paris, and first published in 1908. The new edition, extensively retranslated, was published in 2014.
Regards Tony
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
What in offer is, that it has not been interpreted that way before, but the scriptures can and do indeed read that way, if you have that frame of reference.
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
Thomas, I see it in this verse, there are many verse about Faith.
Romans 1:17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
So in the material mind we are dead, we will be made alive by "Faith".
I see that is found over and over in the Bible.
Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
That we need Faith to be born again is vindicated, Faith is a gift from God, it is a valid explanation.
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
It is a magnificent statement, valid and true. Discussion on it is reqired. That statement is why we have persecuted the Messengers, as we make ourselves God with our own interpretations. I see it is supported in the Bible.
Exodus 33:20 But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”
John 1:18 "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him."
John 5:37 "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form."
1 Timothy 6:16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
If we are honest with our own selves Thomas, we are nothing in this creation, we are so small and insignificant, let alone all the Spiritual Worlds of God that are yet unseen.
Yet we think we know of God!
Now we need to be really honest, what do we know of God, but what Christ has shown us and told us, who of us has seen God?
We can see the Essence of the Holy Spirit is all the Morals and Virtues and that thus does define the Prophets and Christ, but scriptures support we have never seen God.
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
What our challenge is, is to sort the wheat from the Chaff. What is from God and what is from our own selves.
I see that takes an eye focussed on Oneness.
I wish you well on your journey of life.
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
Faithfulservant
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The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. -Albert Einstein
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
One can never know when the spark of faith is ignited, when God's gift is embraced.
History is full of such testimonials.
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
So who else has claimed to be an Annointed One RJM, other than the Ones God Annointed with the Holy Spirit?
There are many false prophets, we are told to be aware of those that claim a station in the Holy Spirit.
Thus this has naught to do with Gurus, priests, Imams, disciples, as none of them are Annointed, but some are a perfect example of being born again from the flesh into the Spirit and who by the Grace of God, are able to reflect Jesus the Christ, who was the embodiment of the Holy Spirit.
Now if we by the Spirit of Faith embrace the Holy Spirit that is the Mirror of Jesus the Christ, and remove from our heart the veils of this world, we too can reflect to a certain extent the Holy Spirit.
Regards Tony
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About a zillion other self-declared new messiah figures?
The real Christ works fine for me, thanks. Jesus doesn't need upgrading, imo
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