The Mystery of God’s Will Unfolding in this Matrix 2

[Thomas]

This statement stands out, as it is a Biblical sign of a True Prophet, note verse 2.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

I only offer this to you as you can see Baha'u'llah fulfilled the requirements of the confession about Jesus Christ, even if you do not accept He is a Messenger.

Read on, and you'll find the text refutes Baha'i teaching ...

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God.

It may well be. But suppose, just suppose, that that leprosy might also be the physical affliction.

Remember God created the world, and saw that it was good (cf Genesis 1). Healing a physical affliction is as much the work of God as much as the spiritual work.

It's an inherent dualism, IMHO, to separate the physical and the spiritual. Humanity is both, not one nor t'other. My own theology assumes that the physical miracles were just that, physical miracles, but that they also have a spiritual dimension ... otherwise, they're just abstractions that have only incidental impact in the material realm.

Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised.

Hmmm ... I'm not sure God gives up on us as your guy thinks He does.

We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.

How do 'we' bear witness, when there is leprosy in the world, and sickness, and infirmity ...

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

No need to guess, old fruit. Not everyone's an astronomer.

In the end, it depends if we were awake and looking. Most of us are not , I would not have.

Sorry early work today. I will look at yiu further responses later today.

God bless, Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

If by 'spirit' I assume you mean the human quality (eg 'the spirit of the occasion') then yes, that's a given in every tradition. That's 101

This is from a talk by Abdul'baha about the 5 levels of Spirit.

The Spirit of Faith appears to be the intermediary between the human Spirit and Holy Spirit. Thus I am looking at this topic with a different frame if reference, which I see does not conflict with Gospel acoount when thay fame if reference is considered.

The Five Kinds of Spirit

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Read Luke 1:17 – you've got the wrong end of the stick here.

I agree with Luke 17, so I am not sure why you would offer that.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Again, not the God of the Abrahamics, thankfully.

Our God is above time and temporality.

I think what you mean is, people try and change God to suit ...

Again, do not know why you offered that as I agree God is above time and temporality.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Read on, and you'll find the text refutes Baha'i teaching

Maybe with your personal interpretation that is the case, all I read has been reconciled with the Baha'i Writings. It is possible to see that Muhammad and the Message of Islam is also given in Prophecies.

It is logical the Bible has foretold of Islam, given that it is also an intrinsic part of the Holy Land as well now.

Regards Tony

 

[Thomas]

This is from a talk by Abdul'baha about the 5 levels of Spirit.

OK.

Thus I am looking at this topic with a different frame if reference, which I see does not conflict with Gospel acoount when thay fame if reference is considered.

OK, let me clarify.

First is the vegetable spirit ... animal spirit ... to the human spirit ...
Nothing ground-breaking here. Usually philosophers begin with the mineral world, then flora, then fauna, then human ...

But this human spirit has two aspects: one divine and one satanic—that is, it is capable of both the greatest perfection and the greatest deficiency.
This is not Abrahamic. (Zoroastrian, perhaps?) In the Abrahamic Traditions, human nature is created inherently good (but subsequently wounded), but most definitely not inherently satanic.

In the Bible, we are made in the image of the Divine (Genesis 1:26) and animated by the breath of the Holy Spirit (Genesis 2:7) – the satanic order belongs to the level of angels, and are themselves created (and subsequently fallen).

So this definitely conflicts with the Biblical reference.

As to the fourth degree of spirit, it is the heavenly spirit, which is the spirit of faith and the outpouring grace of the All-Merciful ... The fifth degree of spirit is the Holy Spirit, which is the mediator between God and His creation.
Here again a departure from the Biblical materials, creating an artificial split of the Holy Spirit into a fourth and fifth. There is no distinction – where the Holy Spirit is, the Holy Spirit is – it is not 'there, but at one remove' – this is theological nonsense.

Faith is the presence of the Holy Spirit, not some emanation of the Holy Spirit – Scripture is quite clear. Human faith is the preparation for the reception of the Divine Immanence, and when the Divine enters the soul, the soul is exalted and knows in a transcendent manner.

Luke 1:46-47 "And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my (human) spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour." Clearly the human soul cannot magnify God, what is meant is that the sense of the presence of God is magnified by the indwelling Spirit.

It is in the Holy Spirit that we can cry "Abba, Father!" (Romans 8:5) – because the Holy Spirit is of the Father and is in the Father – this is the doctrine of theosis (Latin: deification).

It seems to me the Baha'i teaching inserts a wedge between the human soul and the Holy Spirit.

Bahá’u’lláh ... through the power of the Holy Spirit, revived the souls and ushered in a new cycle.
I don't see how, when the doctrine puts an artificial separation between the soul and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Thomas]

In the end, it depends if we were awake and looking. Most of us are not , I would not have.

No, it really doesn't.

The point is whether a comet actually signifies an event, or just happens to be coincidental.

 

[Thomas]

Maybe with your personal interpretation that is the case ...

As I have said, I don't accept Baha'i teaching, so this argument fails.

You argue that your teaching endorses the Bible and the Quran, but I see irreconcilable differences – which you do not address – between what is asserted by Judaism, Christianity and Islam, and which is refuted by the Baha'i writings.

Really you need the courage of your conviction and stand on your own doctrine, not try and co-opt other people's doctrines into agreeing with or somehow bolstering yours. If it is true Revelation, it should stand on its own two feet.

The central thesis as I see it – your mirror analogy – is definitely not Christian, as it does not allow for the immanent Presence, nor deification.

 

[Modesty]

Really you need the courage of your conviction and stand on your own doctrine, not try and co-opt other people's doctrines into agreeing with or somehow bolstering yours. If it is true Revelation, it should stand on its own two feet.

I think this is one big flaw of Baha'i theology. It relies SO much on arguing that other religions are compatible with/support its revelations. I mean, yes Christianity and Islam have often done this before (such as with Judaism), but they have their own well developed theology that has nothing to do with other religions. It becomes even more confusing imo because Baha'i also claim religious figures like Zoroaster, Buddha, and Krishna which is baffling because the religious context these figures come out of has nothing to do with what Baha'i teaches. They're not compatible at all.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

OK, let me clarify.

First is the vegetable spirit ... animal spirit ... to the human spirit ...
Nothing ground-breaking here. Usually philosophers begin with the mineral world, then flora, then fauna, then human ...

The Spirit of Faith was to me a concept that is different. It explains to me how good and evil is perceived in this Matrix and explains how one is born from the human spirit into the Holy Spirit.

I see it reflected in the Bible.

But this human spirit has two aspects: one divine and one satanic—that is, it is capable of both the greatest perfection and the greatest deficiency.
This is not Abrahamic. (Zoroastrian, perhaps?) In the Abrahamic Traditions, human nature is created inherently good (but subsequently wounded), but most definitely not inherently satanic.

In the Bible, we are made in the image of the Divine (Genesis 1:26) and animated by the breath of the Holy Spirit (Genesis 2:7) – the satanic order belongs to the level of angels, and are themselves created (and subsequently fallen).

So this definitely conflicts with the Biblical reference

I see no conflict at all with those Bible references, that is exactly how I read the meaning from what is offered in the Baha'i Writings.

The connection on Human with the Divine has been explained in greater detail.

We are created on the edge of darkness and the beginning of light, the light is the potential in us, the image we are made in, which is the perfect man, an example is Jesus.

The darkness is the material, the light is the Spirit. We are, by our choices, the Good or the Evil.

I see the fallen angels are those that embrace the light, then take thay light for themselves without given authority.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

As to the fourth degree of spirit, it is the heavenly spirit, which is the spirit of faith and the outpouring grace of the All-Merciful ... The fifth degree of spirit is the Holy Spirit, which is the mediator between God and His creation.
Here again a departure from the Biblical materials, creating an artificial split of the Holy Spirit into a fourth and fifth. There is no distinction – where the Holy Spirit is, the Holy Spirit is – it is not 'there, but at one remove' – this is theological nonsense.

Faith is the presence of the Holy Spirit, not some emanation of the Holy Spirit – Scripture is quite clear. Human faith is the preparation for the reception of the Divine Immanence, and when the Divine enters the soul, the soul is exalted and knows in a transcendent manner.

Luke 1:46-47 "And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my (human) spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour." Clearly the human soul cannot magnify God, what is meant is that the sense of the presence of God is magnified by the indwelling Spirit.

It is in the Holy Spirit that we can cry "Abba, Father!" (Romans 8:5) – because the Holy Spirit is of the Father and is in the Father – this is the doctrine of theosis (Latin: deification).

It seems to me the Baha'i teaching inserts a wedge between the human soul and the Holy Spirit.

Bahá’u’lláh ... through the power of the Holy Spirit, revived the souls and ushered in a new cycle.
I don't see how, when the doctrine puts an artificial separation between the soul and the Holy Spirit

Ok so you said there was nothing ground breaking, but then grabbed hold of the ground breaking to refute it.

All I see is a great explanation of what the Bible already offers. Jesus said you must be born again and that takes faith as one has to pick up the cross and follow him. Jesus said let the dead bury the dead, so ine can be alive in the human spirit, but dead in faith. Obviously one needs Faith (now we know it is a divine Spirit) to embrace Christ, the Holy Spirit.

There is no conflict, just a new frames of references, looking outside the box.

Sorry I am not an essay writer Thomas. Time is short, I am off to work, I start at 6am here in far North West Qld.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I think this is one big flaw of Baha'i theology. It relies SO much on arguing that other religions are compatible with/support its revelations. I mean, yes Christianity and Islam have often done this before (such as with Judaism), but they have their own well developed theology that has nothing to do with other religions. It becomes even more confusing imo because Baha'i also claim religious figures like Zoroaster, Buddha, and Krishna which is baffling because the religious context these figures come out of has nothing to do with what Baha'i teaches. They're not compatible at all.

I would simply ask if you, or they have searched with the eye focused on finding the connections?

Mostly I hear people are just looking for the differences. We will find what we are looking for. I see that is the mystery of how God's Will unfolds, it is up to us ro embrace the Oneness, or look for all the differences that are reflected in this matrix.

When I read the Quran passages about the Bible, I do not see it conflicts with what is recorded in the Bible, I see the difference is in personal interpretations.

Regards Tony

 

[Modesty]

I would simply ask if you, or they have searched with the eye focused on finding the connections?

I think that most religions are more different than they are similar. Obviously Abrahamic religions will share a lot of similar ideas because they come from the same root source but they're still wildly different. Not to mention non-Abrahamic religions. It is eternally frustrating to me when non-Abrahamic religions get shunted to the side in religious discussion. I feel like Baha'i represents itself as respecting and incorporating previous religions, but it really only does that with the main Abrahamic religions.

 

[RJM]

I'm sure that all religions are not agreed in principle to accept the writings of Baha'u'llah and his family as the inerrant word of god for all humanity for the next 800 years to come, lol

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

This to me is a great sign that the Lesser Peace will be built and indicates how the Mystery of God’s Will Unfolds.

This is a great speech calling for unity by all Nations.

Zelensky speaks at the UN General Assembly in New York

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky addresses world leaders at the UN General Assembly in New York on Sept. 19. Read more: https://wapo.st/3PmVXMX. Subscr...

www.youtube.com

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I think that most religions are more different than they are similar. Obviously Abrahamic religions will share a lot of similar ideas because they come from the same root source but they're still wildly different. Not to mention non-Abrahamic religions. It is eternally frustrating to me when non-Abrahamic religions get shunted to the side in religious discussion. I feel like Baha'i represents itself as respecting and incorporating previous religions, but it really only does that with the main Abrahamic religions.

Your opening passage is 100% reflected in your closing remark.

Plain and simple, sorry now starting work.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I'm sure that all religions are not agreed in principle to accept the writings of Baha'u'llah and his family as the inerrant word of god for all humanity for the next 800 years to come, lol

This to me is a great sign that the Lesser Peace will be built and indicates how the Mystery of God’s Will Unfolds.

This is a great speech calling for unity by all Nations.

Zelensky speaks at the UN General Assembly in New York

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky addresses world leaders at the UN General Assembly in New York on Sept. 19. Read more: https://wapo.st/3PmVXMX. Subscr...

www.youtube.com

Regards Tony

The video I just posted, is a great example how God's Word eventually permeates the minds and hearts of humanity, how God's Will guides humanity.

Our waywardness eventually compells us to change.

Have a great day, I am now just about on the working day clock.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

It is eternally frustrating to me when non-Abrahamic religions get shunted to the side in religious discussion.

Good morning Modesty, I have a few minutes then off to work again. It is good to have a busy life.

Oneness is the key here, they are One with the Bible and Quran Prophets/ Messengers / Manifestations, they are all of God.

Some of the audience here struggles with embracing Islam as being a valid Message of God, what happens when one brings in Krishna, Zoroaster and Buddha? Also, it is worth considering that the older the Religions, the harder it becones to separate doctrine that has been spliced into and subsequently been recorded as the Word of God. I say that to address your observation that they appear to differ. At first glance there are teachings that are not compatible, but we really need to get to the source of those teachings, find what was said, what were they built upon.

The outward form of religion does differ, as it is suited to the age it is guven, it is the inner essence we talk of, the morals and virtues that guide us to unity. There is many thoughts one can pursue in regards to this. Another mystery of God's Will.

Have a great day, Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

This to me is a great sign that the Lesser Peace will be built and indicates how the Mystery of God’s Will Unfolds.

This is a great speech calling for unity by all Nations.

Zelensky speaks at the UN General Assembly in New York

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky addresses world leaders at the UN General Assembly in New York on Sept. 19. Read more: https://wapo.st/3PmVXMX. Subscr...

www.youtube.com

Regards Tony

What has already been offered is this.

"....The Great Being, wishing to reveal the prerequisites of the peace and tranquillity of the world and the advancement of its peoples, hath written: The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men. Such a peace demandeth that the Great Powers should resolve, for the sake of the tranquillity of the peoples of the earth, to be fully reconciled among themselves. Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories. This will ensure the peace and composure of every people, government and nation. We fain would hope that the kings and rulers of the earth, the mirrors of the gracious and almighty name of God, may attain unto this station, and shield mankind from the onslaught of tyranny.…"

“Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh”, pp. 249-250

As the days roll on, as the tyranny around the world escalates, as the cataclysmic natural disasters continue to unfold, the wisdom of what God has already offered us starts to become manifested in actions we need to Implement. The Mystery of God’s Will Unfolds.

All the best to all people. Regards Tony