The Mystery of God’s Will Unfolding in this Matrix 2

[RJM]

The Oneness of God requires us to embrace all God given faith in the same light, so your statement is not correct, but yes it does require a Christian to appreciate that Muhammad is indeed a Messenger of God.

Imagine a world where Islam and Christianity do embrace each other in the Light that is God.

Regards Tony

How is my statement not correct? You say it is not correct and then go on in the next sentence to confirm that it is correct.

For Christians to accept that Muhammad (pbuh) is not just a messenger of God but THE inerrant messenger of God requires them to accept the authority of the Quran over the New Testament, where the two books differ, and to accept the Quran Jesus over the New Testament Jesus.

It's been going on for 1500 years

And this is exactly why Islam and Christianity can never embrace each other: they are DIFFERENT.

They will never be the same. They just will never dovetail. That's not a problem in itself -- each to their own and God bless them all -- that's only a problem for those who want to make it one.

Whatever ... it's all just double talk to me. The emperor is naked

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

How is my statement not correct? You say it is not correct and then go on in the next sentence to confirm that it is correct.

It is not correct as one does not drop their Faith in Jesus the Christ, nor the Bible. They gain an Appreciation of Muhammad and the Quran in the same light as their own Faith.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

It is not correct as one does not drop their Faith in Jesus the Christ, nor the Bible. They gain an Appreciation of Muhammad and the Quran in the same light as their own Faith.

Regards Tony

Be honest, Tony

The only way for the New Testament to dovetail with the Quran is by mangling and distorting one or the other. And the choice of which one to distort almost always has to come down to the NT because the Baha'i believe the Quran to be the inerrant word of Allah. That is the name of the game, imo

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Be honest, Tony

The only way for the New Testament to dovetail with the Quran is by mangling and distorting one or the other. And the choice of which one to distort almost always has to come down to the NT because the Baha'i believe the Quran to be the inerrant word of Allah. That is the name of the game, imo

Honestly I do not see that is the case. They are complimentary.

Times change, God changes Laws to suit the age and people, but the basic foundational Morals and Virtues remain unchanged.

That is why you will find Millions of Christians and Muslims that just want reconciliation and peace, they want a fair go for everyone.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Honestly I do not see that is the case

I know -- you see what you see whatever the Bahai writings tell you to see. It's like a bulldozer rolling over and pushing aside everything that anyone else thinks or says, imo

They are complimentary.

Oh nonsense! Fudge and manipulate. While they may be complimentary in some aspects, the Quran Jesus is VERY different from the NT Jesus.

That is why you will find Millions of Christians and Muslims that just want reconciliation and peace, they want a fair go for everyone.

Of course. But peace in difference. Never by trying to make apples become oranges, imo

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Oh nonsense! Fudge and manipulate. While they may be complimentary in some aspects, the Quran Jesus is VERY different from the NT Jesus.

Only in people's chosen frames of references. That is another of the mysteries of God's Will unfolding in this Matrix, God allows our chosen frames of references, the Messenger give us the choice of new eyes and new ears, to look at Faith again as a child, learning for the first time.

That is just reference to biblical meditations, not a reference to any person on RF.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Of course. But peace in difference. Never by trying to make apples become oranges, imo

Good fruit, is good fruit, no matter the tree, God is the Gardener and it is God that gives us the varieties of fruit for harvest. Fruit we can share with each other.

Regards Tony

 

[Faithfulservant]

Honestly I do not see that is the case. They are complimentary.

Times change, God changes Laws to suit the age and people, but the basic foundational Morals and Virtues remain unchanged.

That is why you will find Millions of Christians and Muslims that just want reconciliation and peace, they want a fair go for everyone.

Regards Tony

Both Malachi 3:6 and Hebrews 13:8
declare that God is the same always and never ever changes. He is always good, always loving, always all-powerful. No matter how this world changes around us, we can trust God is consistent. He is the same yesterday, today, and Forever

God is not human, that He should lie, not a human being, that He should change his mind” (Numbers 23:19). “But you [God] remain the same, and your years will never end” (Psalm 102:27). “Your word, LORD, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens” (Psalm 119:89)

 

[Faithfulservant]

Good fruit, is good fruit, no matter the tree, God is the Gardener and it is God that gives us the varieties of fruit for harvest. Fruit we can share with each other.

Regards Tony

Oh I'm glad you bring up Fruit as this is a very fine biblical reference.

Romans 11:16​

16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches

Who is the root? Jesus

1 Corinthians 15:20
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep

Jesus..

James 1:18
18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created

Jesus ..

1 Corinthians 15:23
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him

Belong to who?

Hebrews 13:15 Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that openly profess his name.

Profess whose name?

John 15:16
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

Whose name?

Romans 7:4-5
4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death

Belong to who?

And the scripture you are manhandling

John 15:1-7

The Vine and the Branches
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener

Jesus is the vine

2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

Jesus is the vine

3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

Jesus is the vine and the logos

4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Jesus is the vine

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Remain in who?


6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

If you don't remain in who?


7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

There are many more but then I think I made my point

 

[RJM]

Oh I'm glad you bring up Fruit as this is a very fine biblical reference.

Romans 11:16​

16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches

Who is the root? Jesus

1 Corinthians 15:20
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep

Jesus..

James 1:18
18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created

Jesus ..

1 Corinthians 15:23
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him

Belong to who?

Hebrews 13:15 Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that openly profess his name.

Profess whose name?

John 15:16
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

Whose name?

Romans 7:4-5
4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death

Belong to who?

And the scripture you are manhandling

John 15:1-7

The Vine and the Branches
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener

Jesus is the vine

2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

Jesus is the vine

3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

Jesus is the vine and the logos

4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Jesus is the vine

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Remain in who?


6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

If you don't remain in who?


7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

There are many more but then I think I made my point

But Baha'i believe all these passages apply equally to Baha'u'llah as Christ the Father?

Yet if all messengers are equal, wherever did Muhammad (pbuh) claim equality with Christ, so that these passages would apply to him also?

Muhammad never dreamed of making that claim

It's a farce, imo

 

[RJM]

Baha'u'llah started out as thinking of himself as just a messenger and then elevated himself to the level of the Christ and then beyond Jesus the Son on to the higher station of himself as Christ the Father -- and then began the process by his later family and followers of trying to justify it by manipulating the Bible and looking for Muslim hadith, but neither of which in any way actually support that claim, imo

 

[Faithfulservant]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg i've been entertaining the idea that you don't study the Quran like you do the bible for validation of your religion. I don't see you quoting it. Do you not know it? Does it have something to do with your mom accepting Jesus as her personal savior? I just think there's something about this disparity that is worth questioning and I'm curious. We have a few active Muslim members that would probably participate in your discussions. I feel like I'm monopolizing all your best stuff as it's centered around who Jesus says He was.

 

[Faithfulservant]

I'm trying unsuccessfully find the post where it was mentioned how Baha'lu'llah was imprisoned and executed. I wanted to bring up that there are persecuted Christians that face this every day since the church was established. It's tragic. How does that differ for Baha'lu'llah? I do not believe what Jesus suffered on the cross can compare at all. That's my opinion based on scripture.

 

[RJM]

I'm trying unsuccessfully find the post where it was mentioned how Baha'lu'llah was imprisoned and executed. I wanted to bring up that there are persecuted Christians that face this every day since the church was established. It's tragic. How does that differ for Baha'lu'llah? I do not believe what Jesus suffered on the cross can compare at all. That's my opinion based on scripture.

The Bab was executed by firing squad.

Baha'u'llah was suspected of being part of a Babi plot to kill the Shah and tortured by being beaten on the soles of his feet with a rod then forced to walk miles in bare feet to a dungeon where he was chained up for several months until he was released when it was finally accepted that he was not part of the plot ... I think?

I'm not clear on the exact details. Whatever -- he was a brave guy and obviously drew people towards him by his personal charisma, imo

 

[RJM]

But without wanting to tivialize what he went through, it's obvious that all these type of new messiah people were very charismatic and magnetic and convincing in a way that attracted followers around them, often ready to give their lives for them.

And they all thought they were the new Christ ...

 

[Modesty]

I personally do not agree. This is something that my life has shown to me. Every choice, every thought, every action has consequences.

Hmm, I guess there's not much else to say. My faith and a lot of other people's faith doesn't include Baha'u'llah and I just can't agree with the suggestion that that is a bad thing, or damaging. I have a relationship with God outside of Baha'i (or any organized religion at this point), and I don't need Baha'u'llah's teachings to have a vibrant, beneficial faith in God.

 

[RJM]

Hmm, I guess there's not much else to say. My faith and a lot of other people's faith doesn't include Baha'u'llah and I just can't agree with the suggestion that that is a bad thing, or damaging. I have a relationship with God outside of Baha'i (or any organized religion at this point), and I don't need Baha'u'llah's teachings to have a vibrant, beneficial faith in God.

Love this ^

God meets every sincere soul where they are, regardless of time or place or religion or no religion, imo

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Both Malachi 3:6 and Hebrews 13:8
declare that God is the same always and never ever changes. He is always good, always loving, always all-powerful. No matter how this world changes around us, we can trust God is consistent. He is the same yesterday, today, and Forever

God is not human, that He should lie, not a human being, that He should change his mind” (Numbers 23:19). “But you [God] remain the same, and your years will never end” (Psalm 102:27). “Your word, LORD, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens” (Psalm 119:89)

Correct. This is what binds the Faiths and enables us to embrace the Oneness of God.

It is just a shift in our own frame of references, we can embrace the promise.

Zechariah 14:9 "And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one."

That can only happen with our own relative understanding of God and the Messengers.

Otherwise, it is business as usual.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Oh I'm glad you bring up Fruit as this is a very fine biblical reference.

Romans 11:16​

16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches

Who is the root? Jesus

1 Corinthians 15:20
20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep

Jesus..

James 1:18
18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created

Jesus ..

1 Corinthians 15:23
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him

Belong to who?

Hebrews 13:15 Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that openly profess his name.

Profess whose name?

John 15:16
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

Whose name?

Romans 7:4-5
4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death

Belong to who?

And the scripture you are manhandling

John 15:1-7

The Vine and the Branches
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener

Jesus is the vine

2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

Jesus is the vine

3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

Jesus is the vine and the logos

4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

Jesus is the vine

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Remain in who?


6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

If you don't remain in who?


7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

There are many more but then I think I made my point

You made a point valid for your frame of reference.

I can reply as to how all God given Faiths have the same fruits, as it is the fruits of Christ we speak of.

Peter answered your question as to who we remain in. Matthew 16:13-20 13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

So, Who is the root? Christ (An annointed One)

1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep

Christ, the first and the Last, the Holy Spirit, the flesh amounts to nothing.

James 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created

 Christ

1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him

We must remain in the fruits that are of Christ, the "Annointed One".

When Christ (An Annointed One) comes, it is up to embrace that Message and partake of the Fruits.

God bless, much Love, regards Tony.

 

[RJM]

is just a shift in our own frame of references, we can embrace the promise.

And supposedly everyone toss off their old beliefs and loyalties and submit mindlessly to the declarations of another self-declared guru new Jesus as God's inerrant truth for the next 800 years -- starting now, sign up and pay the temple tax, or else you're damning yourself and rest of the world to hell

Yup ...