The Mystery of God’s Will Unfolding in this Matrix 2

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I'm confused by what you mean when you use the term Christ, because outside of its theological implications in Christianity, its just a Greek translation of the Hebrew word for messiah (if I'm not incorrect). How do Baha'i understand messiahship? Are the Messengers considered messiahs? Or are you talking about Jesus here specifically?

By Christ I use the Meaning of the Word, it is not a surname, but a title, "Annointed One".

So it would be Yes, all the Messengers are Annointed Ones, Annointed of God. It is they that are given the Messages for Humanity, given by God, they are the given Mouth and the Pen of God.

All the sheep will become one fold, with one shepherd, God, and His Name will be One.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

That's an interesting take, albeit one that seems a bit confused historically.

Note how historians are finding older and older civilizations. Some of those Civilizations having constructed objects / buildings that amaze us, as to how they achieved such precision.

Abdul'baha explained it like this.

"When a cycle comes to a close, a new one is inaugurated, and the previous cycle, on account of the momentous events which transpire, vanishes so entirely from memory as to leave behind no record or trace. Thus, as you are aware, we have no record of twenty thousand years ago, even though … life on this earth is very ancient—not one or two hundred thousand, or even one or two million years old: It is ancient indeed, and the records and traces of ancient times have been entirely obliterated.

Each of the Manifestations of God has likewise a cycle wherein His religion and His law are in full force and effect. When His cycle is ended through the advent of a new Manifestation, a new cycle begins. Thus, cycles are inaugurated, concluded, and renewed, until a universal cycle is completed in the world of existence and momentous events transpire which efface every record and trace of the past … – Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, newly revised edition, pp. 182-183.

You may wish to read a more detailed explanation by an individual.

The Recurring Cycle of Civilizations

The Baha'i teachings allude to ancient cycles that have taken place on our planet, comparing them to the vast spiritual cycles...

bahaiteachings.org

A thought is that we are at the beginning of a 500,000 year cycle, so what change awaits us in these early days!

Regards Tony

 

[Faithfulservant]

I accept the Bible is knowledge of the Attributes of God. This is but a distraction.

I would ask you to give me knowledge of the Essence of God that Christ has not shown in Word and Attributes.

If you are unable to expand on the Essence of God, then you too only know God via the Word and the example of Jesus Christ. This knowledge is not as annointed one, but as one who has faith in that Word and Christ.

Regards Tony

I told you already as a Christian I am anointed.

As Paul writes, “And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee” (2 Corinthians 1:20-22).

Who is he writing that to? The believers .

1 John 2:27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.

Who was John writing to? The believers.

I'm curious though as you spell anointed as annointed? Is that a deliberate misspelling??

As a Christian I believe Jesus is God and Jesus reveals The Father to us so He is very knowable. That's why I feel sorry for you. You are missing the most important thing as you scramble to justify your religion using our scriptures.

And..by your newest attack on Christian doctrine.. the Holy Spirit is God and He reveals Jesus the Messiah to us. But you've missed that by trying to justify your religion using Christian scriptures.

You would do better trying to justify your religion to us by using your own scriptures because as hundreds of posts have simply just revealed how foolish it is in the method you are using. Every scripture you use is out of context and you've essentially added to it with your mistranslations. You are not a teachable man. But.. keep reading our scriptures because hopefully one day the truth will be revealed to you.

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart” (Hebrews 4:12).

 

[Modesty]

it is not a surname, but a title, "Annointed One".

I know, that’s what I was saying. ‘Anointed one’ is the Greek title that is a translation of the Hebrew word for messiah.

So it would be Yes, all the Messengers are Annointed Ones, Annointed of God. It is they that are given the Messages for Humanity, given by God, they are the given Mouth and the Pen of God.

Fair enough, that answers my question.

If you are unable to expand on the Essence of God, then you too only know God via the Word and the example of Jesus Christ. This knowledge is not as annointed one, but as one who has faith in that Word and Christ.

Just want to point out that to Christians Jesus is God. So, to them, it’s not a case of only knowing God through a Messenger. Jesus is not a messenger to Christians, He is God. So by knowing Him, they are knowing God directly.

 

[Modesty]

not one or two hundred thousand, or even one or two million years old: It is ancient indeed, and the records and traces of ancient times have been entirely obliterated.

I can accept a cyclical view of religion, I know there are other religions that also view history this way. But we actually do have records of our ancestors millions of years ago. Hominids, through the remains we’ve found of them. We can’t know when they started to practice religion definitively.

 

[Faithfulservant]

By Christ I use the Meaning of the Word, it is not a surname, but a title, "Annointed One".

So it would be Yes, all the Messengers are Annointed Ones, Annointed of God. It is they that are given the Messages for Humanity, given by God, they are the given Mouth and the Pen of God.

All the sheep will become one fold, with one shepherd, God, and His Name will be One.

Regards Tony

Technically Christ means Messiah . Christ comes from the Greek word χριστός (chrīstós), meaning "anointed one". The word is derived from the Greek verb χρίω (chrī́ō), meaning "to anoint."[12] In the Greek Septuagint, χριστός was a semantic loan used to translate the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Mašíaḥ, messiah), meaning "[one who is] anointed".[13]

Messiah is also correct for His title

And interesting you use Shepherd and sheep as Jesus is the Good Shepherd. Is this another title you've stolen from Him?

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

Look! He is the shepherd AND the door.

John 10:7 So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

John 10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.

Not Bab or Abdul'baha... Jesus The Messiah.

And the warning

John 10:12-13 He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

 

[Thomas]

I have never said Love stops at the Manifestations Thomas.

Your doctrine does, however. By love I mean Union with the Divine, which is ruled out in Baha'i doctrine.

The key is, I see it is logical and reasonable to offer they are all we do know of God.

Logical and reasonable according to your frame of reference.

From an Abrahamic point of view, the frame is lacking a crucial element – the Immanence of the Divine and the Indwelling Presence of the Holy Spirit – it places a limit on the potential and possibility of the human to know God, which is the whole point of the Abrahamic Revelations.

(The same can be said with regard to the Hindu Traditions.)

The Baha'i doctrine limits that to a demiurgic order of being, higher than human, lower than God. It is denied the human as such.

God does not come to any other human but via the Annointed Ones, the Christ's. We embrace God by embracing Christ.

OK – let me for a moment compare doctrines, and by so doing perhaps I can show you what I mean.

Let's look at John 14.
v5: Thomas saith to him: Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?"
The question we both ask.

v6: "Christ said "I am the Way, the Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me."
That is what the Christian believes.
The Baha'i believes the same of all 'Manifestations' – but obviously that the Baha'u'llah is the key focal point – it is through him that you can see the others.

v8: Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us.
v9: Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also.
Again, here we two appear to coincide.

v16: And I (Jesus) will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever.
v17: The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you.

Here's the stand-out distinction, Baha'u'llah does not say that, does not promise that, and there is no place for it in Baha'i doctrine. The 'spirit' remains with the Manifestation – they best humanity can do is bathe in the reflected light.

In Christ however, it is not a reflection, but an indwelling:
v20: In that day you shall know, that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
v21: ... And he that loveth me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
v23: If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him.

There is no provision for this, as far as I can see, in the Baha'i doctrine.

God is outside of all of creation and creation is contained, God is Unrestrained.

Again, we all assert the transcendence of God, but we all assert the Immanence of God also – only you do not.

Now I ask honestly Thomas, if the Message of Baha’u’llah is as Christ, as are the Messages of Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha and Muhammad. That would have to change your frame of references, would it not?

In all honesty, Tony, if you compared the Messages of Christ, Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha and Muhammad – all which assert Divine Immanence throughout creation – you would see that the Baha'i message is deficient of the very thing I am talking about.

 

[Thomas]

If I can jump in on the point of 'words and attributes' –

"For both the Jews require signs (attributes), and the Greeks seek after wisdom (words), but we preach Christ crucified ..."
1 Corinthians 1:22

"O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding the profane novelties of words, and oppositions of knowledge falsely so called."
1 Timothy 6:20

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Your doctrine does, however. By love I mean Union with the Divine, which is ruled out in Baha'i doctrine.

That is not correct Thomas. All you are doing is imputing your perceived restrictions on to me.

The only difference is you see Jesus, the flesh Body was God, I do not, I follow scripture in that regard, the scripture that say "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing."

I pray to and Love God through the only references I have of God, the Christ, the "Self of God", not the flesh, not only one Name, but all the Annointed Ones.

I do not worship the body of the Messengers, but I do respect that they were chosen above all men to be the 'Self of God', that in turn elevates their dust above mine.

The start of a prayer said daily.

"He is the All-Glorious!

O God, my God! Lowly and tearful, I raise my suppliant hands to Thee and cover my face in the dust of that Threshold of Thine, exalted above the knowledge of the learned, and the praise of all that glorify Thee. Graciously look upon Thy servant, humble and lowly at Thy door, with the glances of the eye of Thy mercy, and immerse him in the Ocean of Thine eternal grace..."

I will bow out of this Thomas.

Regards Tony

 

[Thomas]

That is not correct Thomas. All you are doing is imputing your perceived restrictions on to me.

/
Nope ... I'm looking for evidence of the allowance of human sanctification and finding none ... still none.

The only difference is you see Jesus, the flesh Body was God ...

That's not quite right, but I understand why you'd say that – the limit you place on understanding: "And the Logos was made flesh and dwelt amongst us" (John 1:14)

I will bow out of this Thomas.

Probably for the best.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

That's not quite right, but I understand why you'd say that – the limit you place on understanding: "And the Logos was made flesh and dwelt amongst us" (John 1:14)

Do you understand? What limitations do you see? I see all the Messengers were the 'Self of God'. Krishna, Jesus, Baha'u'llah. I know when I look at Krishna, Jesus and Baha'u'llah in just the flesh, that I will not see God.

Probably for the best

Ha ha, I forgot I said that and went through the replies until I got to this. That is my weakness, do not know when to shut up.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Do you understand? What limitations do you see? I see all the Messengers were the 'Self of God'. Krishna, Jesus, Baha'u'llah. I know when I look at Krishna, Jesus and Baha'u'llah in just the flesh, that I will not see God.

I'm curious why you mostly use Christian scripture and not other "messengers" writings? I actually see you use more Christian scripture than Baha'i. I think you are drawn to the Christian faith.

I made mention that you speak familiar words but they aren't the same and how it was bizarre to me. I realized that you are using the same words but you are using a different dictionary. Now it's not so bizarre.

Ha ha, I forgot I said that and went through the replies until I got to this. That is my weakness, do not know when to shut up.

me too!!

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I'm curious why you mostly use Christian scripture and not other "messengers" writings? I actually see you use more Christian scripture than Baha'i. I think you are drawn to the Christian faith.

I made mention that you speak familiar words but they aren't the same and how it was bizarre to me. I realized that you are using the same words but you are using a different dictionary. Now it's not so bizarre.

The people replying are Christians. I would be happy to use all the scriptures, from all Faiths.

I see the Words of God can have many meanings, that would be a great topic.

Now I will restrain myself.

Regards Tony

 

[Niblo]

me too!!

I would never have noticed!

 

[Niblo]

Now I will restrain myself.

Regards Tony

Promises! Promises!

 

[Thomas]

Do you understand? What limitations do you see?

A Dogma or Doctrine of the Indwelling Spirit of God in the soul of the human person – That is, a theology of the sanctifying grace of God that makes the just man a Temple of the Holy Spirit.

I've outlined the doctrine below.

If you could direct me to an equivalent doctrine in the Baha'i teachings, that's all I'm asking for and in the absence of that, can only assume there isn't one – hence my stance on the matter.

+++

A summation of doctrine from The Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma


The Holy Spirit dwells in the souls of the just, not merely by means of the created gifts of grace which He dispenses, but in His uncreated Divine nature. Holy Writ guarantees the fact of the personal indwelling of the Holy Spirit –

"Know you not that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"
1 Corinthians 3:16

"Or know you not, that your members are the temple of the Holy Spirit (Hagios Pmeuma), who is in you, whom you have from God; and you are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body (soma), and in your spirit (pneuma), which are God's."
1 Corinthians 6:19-20

"And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
2 Corinthians 6:16

"And hope confoundeth not: because the charity of God is poured forth in our hearts, by the Holy Ghost, who is given to us."
Romans 5:5

"And if the spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead, dwell in you; He that raised up Jesus Christ from the dead, shall quicken also your mortal bodies (thnetos soma), because of His spirit (pneuma) that dwelleth in you."
Romans 8:11

The personal indwelling of the Holy Spirit does not effect a substantial, but only an accidental unification of the Holy Spirit with the soul of the just. As the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is an operation of God ad extra, (an 'external work' of God directed towards the world) and as the operations of God ad extra are common to the Three Persons of the Holy Trinity, so the indwelling of the Holy Spirit inevitably implies the indwelling of the Three Divine Persons.

Holy Scripture speaks of the indwelling of the Father and of the Son:
"If anyone love me, he will keep my word. And my Father will love him; and we will come to him and will make our abode with him."
John 14:23
(Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Dr Ludwig Ott, trans. Patrick Lynch DD, editor James Canon Bastible DD, The Doctrine of Grace, section 20, chapter 2, article 5, p259. Tan Books North Carolina, 1974)

 

[Thomas]

As said elsewhere, let's end this here, it's reached the point where it's no longer useful.

 

[Niblo]

A Dogma or Doctrine of the Indwelling Spirit of God in the soul of the human person – That is, a theology of the sanctifying grace of God that makes the just man a Temple of the Holy Spirit.

I've outlined the doctrine below.

If you could direct me to an equivalent doctrine in the Baha'i teachings, that's all I'm asking for and in the absence of that, can only assume there isn't one – hence my stance on the matter.

+++

A summation of doctrine from The Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma


The Holy Spirit dwells in the souls of the just, not merely by means of the created gifts of grace which He dispenses, but in His uncreated Divine nature. Holy Writ guarantees the fact of the personal indwelling of the Holy Spirit –

"Know you not that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"
1 Corinthians 3:16

"Or know you not, that your members are the temple of the Holy Spirit (Hagios Pmeuma), who is in you, whom you have from God; and you are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body (soma), and in your spirit (pneuma), which are God's."
1 Corinthians 6:19-20

"And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
2 Corinthians 6:16

"And hope confoundeth not: because the charity of God is poured forth in our hearts, by the Holy Ghost, who is given to us."
Romans 5:5

"And if the spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead, dwell in you; He that raised up Jesus Christ from the dead, shall quicken also your mortal bodies (thnetos soma), because of His spirit (pneuma) that dwelleth in you."
Romans 8:11

The personal indwelling of the Holy Spirit does not effect a substantial, but only an accidental unification of the Holy Spirit with the soul of the just. As the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is an operation of God ad extra, (an 'external work' of God directed towards the world) and as the operations of God ad extra are common to the Three Persons of the Holy Trinity, so the indwelling of the Holy Spirit inevitably implies the indwelling of the Three Divine Persons.

Holy Scripture speaks of the indwelling of the Father and of the Son:
"If anyone love me, he will keep my word. And my Father will love him; and we will come to him and will make our abode with him."
John 14:23
(Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Dr Ludwig Ott, trans. Patrick Lynch DD, editor James Canon Bastible DD, The Doctrine of Grace, section 20, chapter 2, article 5, p259. Tan Books North Carolina, 1974)

Excellent book. One of my favourites. Gifted to me decades ago, when I first joined the Carmelite Third Order.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

A Dogma or Doctrine of the Indwelling Spirit of God in the soul of the human person – That is, a theology of the sanctifying grace of God that makes the just man a Temple of the Holy Spirit.

I've outlined the doctrine below.

If you could direct me to an equivalent doctrine in the Baha'i teachings, that's all I'm asking for and in the absence of that, can only assume there isn't one – hence my stance on the matter.

We will not find a "doctrine", we will find explanations as to what in means, the Writings explain the indwelling of the Spirit in a different frame of reference. The passages given in the Bible are not negated by this frame of reference, they are just seen in a different light.

Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi use the word 'Indwelling'. Fristly Abdul'baha offered this in a talk on the Proofs and Arguments for the Existence of God

"......Thus, when man feels the indwelling spirit, he is in no need of arguments for its existence; but for those who are deprived of the grace of the spirit, it is necessary to set forth external arguments."

Shoghi Effendi in 'The World Order of Baha’u’llah' offered this

"....The indwelling Spirit of God which, in the Apostolic Age of the Church, animated its members, the pristine purity of its teachings, the primitive brilliancy of its light, will, no doubt, be reborn and revived as the inevitable consequence of this redefinition of its fundamental verities, and the clarification of its original purpose.
For the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh--if we would faithfully appraise it--can never, and in no aspect of its teachings, be at variance, much less conflict, with the purpose animating, or the authority invested in, the Faith of Jesus Christ...."

Note the end of that Quote.

"....For the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh--if we would faithfully appraise it--can never, and in no aspect of its teachings, be at variance, much less conflict, with the purpose animating, or the authority invested in, the Faith of Jesus Christ..."

Right after that Shoghi Effendi quotes another important teaching of Baha’u’llah, which attests to that Indwelling Spirit.

"....This glowing tribute which Bahá'u'lláh Himself has been moved to pay to the Author of the Christian Religion stands as sufficient testimony to the truth of this central principle of Bahá'í belief:-- "Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive and resplendent Spirit. We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified...

He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him."

As a Baha'i I embrace the Spirit that is Jesus the Christ.

Regards Tony

 

[Niblo]

Thank you Niblo, some observations given below.

This can be answered, as it is answered just prior to that "Quote"

Note Baha'u'llah is Quoting from a source (Bold is mine)

"In the “‘Aválim,” an authoritative and well-known book, it is recorded: “A Youth from Baní-Háshim shall be made manifest, Who will reveal a new Book and promulgate a new law”; then follow these words: “Most of His enemies will be the divines.” In another passage, it is related of Ṣádiq, son of Muḥammad, that he spoke the following: “There shall appear a Youth from Baní-Háshim, Who will bid the people plight fealty unto Him. His Book will be a new Book, unto which He shall summon the people to pledge their faith. Stern is His Revelation unto the Arab. If ye hear about Him, hasten unto Him.” How well have they followed the directions of the Imáms of the Faith and Lamps of certitude! Although it is clearly stated: “Were ye to hear that a Youth from Baní-Háshim hath appeared, summoning the people unto a new and Divine Book, and to new and Divine laws, hasten unto Him,”

Baha'u'llah was quoting what was written elsewhere.

Regards Tony

Good afternoon, Tony.

I trust you are well; and ask that you forgive my delayed reply.

Your reply is in response to Post 87, in which I offer a quote from Baha’u’llah’s ‘Kitáb-i-Íqán’:

Here is the quote, in its setting (my emphasis):

‘It is evident unto thee that the Birds of Heaven and Doves of Eternity speak a twofold language. One language, the outward language, is devoid of allusions, is unconcealed and unveiled; that it may be a guiding lamp and a beaconing light whereby wayfarers may attain the heights of holiness, and seekers may advance into the realm of eternal reunion. Such are the unveiled traditions and the evident verses already mentioned. The other language is veiled and concealed, so that whatever lieth hidden in the heart of the malevolent may be made manifest and their innermost being be disclosed. Thus hath Ṣádiq, son of Muḥammad, spoken: “God verily will test them and sift them.” This is the divine standard, this is the Touchstone of God, wherewith He proveth His servants. None apprehendeth the meaning of these utterances except them whose hearts are assured, whose souls have found favor with God, and whose minds are detached from all else but Him. In such utterances, the literal meaning, as generally understood by the people, is not what hath been intended. Thus it is recorded: “Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá’im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth.” He also saith: “We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.”

This paragraph is on the final page of the ‘Iqán’; a little above Baháʼu'lláh’s list of reference notes.

In total, there are such 186 notes; none of which refer to the ‘Aválim’.

The fact of the matter is that the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) had only three sons (Qasim; Abdullah; and Ibrahim). All three died in infancy.

I repeat: Was Baháʼu'lláh not aware of this; or, being aware, why does he lie?

How do you square this behaviour with your claim that Baháʼu'lláh is a ‘Self of God His Manifestation in His Creation, His Sign among His creatures’?

Blessings.