Injustice, Anger and Forgiveness.

[EricPH]

So much injustice happens in this world, that never seems to be put right. This can lead to anger, but anger is like picking up a burning coal, with the intention of throwing it at the person who angers us, but the person who gets burnt the most is me. Often, we don't get the chance to throw the burning coal of anger, we hold onto it, the anger becomes hotter and hotter, and it eats away inside our soul.

Should we forgive, should we try and let go of the pain of injustice, are there conditions to forgiveness?
Is forgiving part of a healing process?
If we forgive, who benefits the most?
Should we forgive, if someone is not repentant?
Are there different levels to forgiveness? Is there a difference forgiving someone who has stolen £10, or someone who is responsible for the death of a child?

 

[JustGeorge]

So much injustice happens in this world, that never seems to be put right. This can lead to anger, but anger is like picking up a burning coal, with the intention of throwing it at the person who angers us, but the person who gets burnt the most is me. Often, we don't get the chance to throw the burning coal of anger, we hold onto it, the anger becomes hotter and hotter, and it eats away inside our soul.

While I don't think running around angry all the time is helpful to an individual, I don't think many choose to be angry. They just are(sometimes for valid reason, sometimes because its an aspect of their personality they struggle to control). Telling someone not to be angry(without offering them a resource out of it, or time to recollect), usually isn't helpful.

Should we forgive, should we try and let go of the pain of injustice, are there conditions to forgiveness?

Forgiveness is a personal thing. I don't really do 'shoulds'. If a person feels like its time to forgive, then go for it. However, if a person doesn't feel ready, trying to force themselves because they feel they 'should' won't lead to genuine forgiveness. They may say they have for pleasantries, but if they're still unable to let go in their heart, there's no benefit.

Is forgiving part of a healing process?

It can be, yes.

If we forgive, who benefits the most?

In most cases, oneself. Though, sometimes individuals caught up in the situation(along with the person forgiven) benefit as well. This is especially true if the process of forgiveness starts a greater purpose/movement for the person doing the forgiving.

Should we forgive, if someone is not repentant?

Forgive, don't forget, in my belief. If someone steals from my wallet, I might forgive them, but it would be stupid to leave it sitting on the coffee table in front of them unless I was certain of a reformation.

Are there different levels to forgiveness? Is there a difference forgiving someone who has stolen £10, or someone who is responsible for the death of a child?

I would say its more the level of anger to be forgiven.

 

[EricPH]

While I don't think running around angry all the time is helpful to an individual, I don't think many choose to be angry.

With all the injustice, unfairness that goes on in this world, I think everyone has the right to be angry, at some point in their life.

The question then becomes, what do we do about the injustice and our anger?

I listened to Glen Fielder tell his story. He had grown up with David Beckham, and they had both been signed up to play football with Leighton Orient. He had a life of fame and fortune ahead of him. Shortly after he went to a night club and was stabbed in the back and beaten up. He spent a year in hospital and has been paralysed from the waist down; he has been in a wheelchair for the last 27 years. They caught the man who did this, he served four years in prison, he was then able to walk out of prison on his own two feet, and justice had been served.

By this time, Glen had learned to drive a disabled taxi, he tracked down his assailant, and then stalked him with the intention of running him over. Glen saw an opportunity to run his attacker down, but something stopped him. He said he came to understand that true justice could not happen. Justice is not that two people should be crippled, rather, it is that neither of them should be crippled. He knew he could never turn back time. He came to understand that he had to let go of his hatred; if not, he would become worse than his assailant.

He said he has to live with two diseases every day, being crippled, and the greater disease was the hate burning away inside him. Forgiveness and letting go of the hatred was a gradual process for his own benefit, his wheelchair has been a daily reminder of the past injustice.

Glen goes round the country talking about the need to let go of anger, and striving to be the kind and caring person that you want to be.

 

[JustGeorge]

With all the injustice, unfairness that goes on in this world, I think everyone has the right to be angry, at some point in their life.

The question then becomes, what do we do about the injustice and our anger?

I listened to Glen Fielder tell his story. He had grown up with David Beckham, and they had both been signed up to play football with Leighton Orient. He had a life of fame and fortune ahead of him. Shortly after he went to a night club and was stabbed in the back and beaten up. He spent a year in hospital and has been paralysed from the waist down; he has been in a wheelchair for the last 27 years. They caught the man who did this, he served four years in prison, he was then able to walk out of prison on his own two feet, and justice had been served.

By this time, Glen had learned to drive a disabled taxi, he tracked down his assailant, and then stalked him with the intention of running him over. Glen saw an opportunity to run his attacker down, but something stopped him. He said he came to understand that true justice could not happen. Justice is not that two people should be crippled, rather, it is that neither of them should be crippled. He knew he could never turn back time. He came to understand that he had to let go of his hatred; if not, he would become worse than his assailant.

He said he has to live with two diseases every day, being crippled, and the greater disease was the hate burning away inside him. Forgiveness and letting go of the hatred was a gradual process for his own benefit, his wheelchair has been a daily reminder of the past injustice.

Glen goes round the country talking about the need to let go of anger, and striving to be the kind and caring person that you want to be.

I like how he uses his anger as fuel for a better cause in the long run.

Anger isn't necessarily bad, or uncalled for. Its just when it burns without control...

 

[wil]

So much injustice happens in this world, that never seems to be put right

I see the world as steadily climbing toward cooperation, compassion and understanding.

It is that very climb which highlights injustice as we improve.

In regards to overt racism I thought Obama was gonna bring out the kkk attitude...but no it was Trump. The US while it has a long way to go has gone from slavery and 3/5ths to our civil war, voting rights, civil rights, BLM, and now CRT highlighting origins and issues with police and the changes while incremental and not enough....they are being put right.

I see the same changes from thacceptance of gender, sexual preference and fluidity....again a long way to go, but we have come a long way in my life.

Similar with the environment...the air was horrendous in the 60s when rivers were burning and smokestacks spewing.

Women's rights and equality, treatment of kids and adults with special needs, care of our elderly...again I am US centric but seems to me the whole world is slowly making changes.

Takes a long time to turn an aircraft carrier around and even longer for generational ignorance to die and societies to change.

 

[Modesty]

Takes a long time to turn an aircraft carrier around and even longer for generational ignorance to die and societies to change.

My generation (Gen Z) definitely is very radically left-wing but interestingly enough there are lots of people my age who are more conservative than our parents, myself included. It's not as prominent, but it's growing.

 

[Modesty]

Although more on point to the OP, I feel like we are a very angry generation on both sides. And forgiveness is not a virtue we possess in abundance.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

So much injustice happens in this world, that never seems to be put right. This can lead to anger, but anger is like picking up a burning coal, with the intention of throwing it at the person who angers us, but the person who gets burnt the most is me. Often, we don't get the chance to throw the burning coal of anger, we hold onto it, the anger becomes hotter and hotter, and it eats away inside our soul.

Good image.

Should we forgive, should we try and let go of the pain of injustice,

Yes, we should forgive if it is possible. There's no compulsion to forgive, but it is the best choice if it is possible.

are there conditions to forgiveness?

Yes. Forgiveness is fruitless if the action of the other is persistent, except in some cases when he or she tries to change but is not able to.

Is forgiving part of a healing process?

Yes.

If we forgive, who benefits the most?

Forgiveness can save much vain energy the victim or the person hurt would else invest in anger.
True Forgiveness is also beneficial to the person who hurt or sinned if he or she regrets.

Should we forgive, if someone is not repentant?

If the sin is massive or evident, and the perpetrator refused to repent: No. That person would not recognise the act of forgiving and feel encouraged to continue. Such person must be punished.
If a person doesn't understand why his action hurt, exchange is necessary. The attitude to be willing to forgive is precious in this situation, and it is good to forgive (or to understand the own misunderstanding or the own fault).

Are there different levels to forgiveness? Is there a difference forgiving someone who has stolen £10, or someone who is responsible for the death of a child?

Definitely. If someone has stolen 10£, you are not really hurt, it's rather a subject of correction that is needed and it is beneficial above all to the thief.
Someone who killed the child intentionally cannot be forgiven just like that. He or she must repent before.
Someone who is responsible for the death of ones child by accident or negligence should be forgiven. There is no other way of healing for either side.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

There is still another case: If we are not able to meet the person, be it because he or she is in an unknown place or a powerful person:
We can leave it to God to judge or forgive.
We can close up without our act to forgive or to claim punishment. We delegate to Him.

 

[juantoo3]

With all the injustice, unfairness that goes on in this world, I think everyone has the right to be angry, at some point in their life.

A person is about as happy as they make their mind up to be.

Show me anything in the real world, the natural world, that is fair or just. I would do with one non-human example.

Nothing in life is fair. Therefore, your premise is faulty to begin with.

 

[TheLightWithin]

In regards to overt racism I thought Obama was gonna bring out the kkk attitude...but no it was Trump.

I think it was a one-two punch.
There were horribly racist people who pretty much fainted dead away when we got a black president.
A hollering yeller like tRump was the bucket of cold water that woke them up so they crawled out of the woodwork and slimed down to the polls

 

[TheLightWithin]

I don't think many choose to be angry

I agree. Emotions are largely involuntary. How we react is where the choice comes in.

 

[JustGeorge]

I agree. Emotions are largely involuntary. How we react is where the choice comes in.

Sometimes. I see a lot of people who haven't yet mastered their reactions, and sometimes the mouth and body moves before the brain.

 

[TheLightWithin]

A person is about as happy as they make their mind up to be.

An old saying, and partly true at best I think

Show me anything in the real world, the natural world, that is fair or just. I would do with one non-human example.

The lack of fairness is not a valid excuse for overt injustice
Example of something fair? This one is not from the natural world, it's the efforts, which are what people are supposed to make when unfairness or its potential is observed:
The efforts in track and field to make sure each runner in a sprint travels the same distance (hence the staggered starts on a curved track) is an effort to be fair.

Non human example? When one of my current cats was a kitten, she looked at me in horror when I tried to respond to her biting my hand (playing) by putting an oven mitt on to protect my hand but kept playing with her. I thought it would allow her to let go and really attack like she wanted to. Instead she got up and left, scowling at me stunned, then came back around and very pointedly bit my wrist on the skin above the oven mitt. She was objecting to something she thought was not fair. House cat has an inherent sense of fairness and was disgusted with my morals (going after her while protecting my hand).

Current young cat we have has a lot of emotional intelligence, unlike one of the other cats. This little kitty will stand up for herself when harassed by the aggressive cat, but when she initiates play, she pays attention to the other cats' reaction and backs off if the overtures are unwelcome.

Little kittens I had (years earlier) would make way for each other at the food dish. They would wait for each other at the litter box.

Hard to know all their motives, other than sharing and cooperation to get along which is surely largely the root of inherent sense of fairness.

Nothing in life is fair. Therefore, your premise is faulty to begin with.

The frequency of unfairness is often observed. It's not accurate to say "nothing in life is fair"
If you're saying "nothing in nature is ever fair" -- even if you defend that, are you saying you don't think people should aim for fairness just because nature has failed to reliably provide it?
Don't you support some efforts to make sure rules are fair say, for competitions of some kind? For rule of law?
Saying that "life isn't fair" is one of those empty replies adults sometimes give kids or young adults who point out unfairness.
I really don't know what the point of saying things like that is, to anybody. What is the goal? What is the hope? To defeat both goals and hope?
People mostly know by kindergarten that things aren't fair by default. Someone has to DO something for things to get fair.
When an adult says "well life isn't fair" what they mean is "I'm not going to do anything about it"

 

[TheLightWithin]

Sometimes. I see a lot of people who haven't yet mastered their reactions, and sometimes the mouth and body moves before the brain.

They have work to do on themselves.
But, I always had trouble getting my head around that level of impulsivity. It's almost like they are claiming their actions are involuntary.
Generally, it's always easier to NOT do something than to do it. It takes energy to initiate an action.

 

[JustGeorge]

They have work to do on themselves.
But, I always had trouble getting my head around that level of impulsivity. It's almost like they are claiming their actions are involuntary.
Generally, it's always easier to NOT do something than to do it. It takes energy to initiate an action.

I'm around a lot of mentally ill people. I'm honestly more used to people that lose control than people that have control.

I'd say its a multi step process. Firstly, looking for triggers that make a person lose control. Secondly, looking for signs that they're headed down that road. (Outside intervention may be necessary.)

If a person is naturally energetic, it may indeed be more difficult to sit still! My uncle once offered my aunt some money if she could be still for 5 minutes. She said of course she could. Two minutes in, she got up and started putting toys in a box, not even realizing what she was doing!

I'm not that person, though. It definitely takes effort to get moving.

 

[TheLightWithin]

I'm around a lot of mentally ill people. I'm honestly more used to people that lose control than people that have control.

I'd say its a multi step process. Firstly, looking for triggers that make a person lose control. Secondly, looking for signs that they're headed down that road. (Outside intervention may be necessary.)

If a person is naturally energetic, it may indeed be more difficult to sit still! My uncle once offered my aunt some money if she could be still for 5 minutes. She said of course she could. Two minutes in, she got up and started putting toys in a box, not even realizing what she was doing!

I'm not that person, though. It definitely takes effort to get moving.

I work in the mental health field as well. It's been quite awhile though since I worked with low functioning individual who might "lose control"
I recognize that your tactics around recognizing triggers and intervening are correct.
I always pondered though what it meant to "lost control" Even in rare moment where I've experienced something like it, I'm always like, what does that really mean? Where does the action come from if not inside the person?
I've pondered this and taken part in discussions on free will. I'm more on team free will.
When someone "loses control" it seems more that they do what they want to do, rather than what others want them to do. It's not so much that they can't refrain from stealing or something, they just are not motivated by anything that says not to.
When someone is extremely compromised in terms of functioning, it's always more difficult to gain insight into what things look like through their eyes.

 

[JustGeorge]

I work in the mental health field as well.

I don't work in it, I live in it.

It's been quite awhile though since I worked with low functioning individual who might "lose control"

Got a few in the house that fit that bill. Well, maybe not always low functioning, but who do 'lose control'.

I recognize that your tactics around recognizing triggers and intervening are correct.
I always pondered though what it meant to "lost control" Even in rare moment where I've experienced something like it, I'm always like, what does that really mean? Where does the action come from if not inside the person?

I think its complicated. The person might, in the moment, want to do whatever, but after the action occurs, are horrified that it occurred.

I did have an ex that realized the next day that he hit me when he saw the bruises, but didn't recollect what happened, and was upset.

I've pondered this and taken part in discussions on free will. I'm more on team free will.
When someone "loses control" it seems more that they do what they want to do, rather than what others want them to do. It's not so much that they can't refrain from stealing or something, they just are not motivated by anything that says not to.

In the moment perhaps. But I've seen enough that, after coming 'down', are filled with regret(and sometimes shock).

When someone is extremely compromised in terms of functioning, it's always more difficult to gain insight into what things look like through their eyes.

It can be, especially if they don't communicate well, or if their memory during said episodes is compromised.

 

[TheLightWithin]

but didn't recollect what happened, and was upset

memory during said episodes is compromised.

Yes, I think that happens with manic episodes, and some other things like trauma flashbacks, or seizure activity. Or compromised by substances.
I have to admit I simply don't know whether not being able to remember something goes hand in hand with not being able to control it.
It think that without the memory though it's just hard to examine that with someone.
I used to think that the only way someone would be able to "not control" something is if they were in fact having a seizure.

 

[juantoo3]

An old saying, and partly true at best I think

A poor person can be happy, a rich person can be miserable. I've known grumpy Guses who couldn't crack a smile to save their life, and I've known folks with cheerful outlooks that couldn't be made miserable under the worst circumstances.

Laughter is the best medicine. What role does depression play in illness, injury recovery and disease?

The lack of fairness is not a valid excuse for overt injustice

Are you not conflating issues? I said nothing of injustice. Justice is a matter of law, which by its very nature is an artificial, manmade abstraction.

Example of something fair? This one is not from the natural world, it's the efforts, which are what people are supposed to make when unfairness or its potential is observed:
The efforts in track and field to make sure each runner in a sprint travels the same distance (hence the staggered starts on a curved track) is an effort to be fair.

If it is not organic, naturally occurring, then it is a manmade abstraction that does not exist in reality. It may exist in our created social existentialism as an unattainable ideal, but the concept is doomed to failure precisely because it does not exist in reality.

Non human example? When one of my current cats was a kitten, she looked at me in horror when I tried to respond to her biting my hand (playing) by putting an oven mitt on to protect my hand but kept playing with her. I thought it would allow her to let go and really attack like she wanted to. Instead she got up and left, scowling at me stunned, then came back around and very pointedly bit my wrist on the skin above the oven mitt. She was objecting to something she thought was not fair. House cat has an inherent sense of fairness and was disgusted with my morals (going after her while protecting my hand).

She saw her advantage was taken away, so she sought another opportunity for advantage. It is a military thought process, and coincides nicely with what I pointed out in my thread The Warrior Philosphe.

Current young cat we have has a lot of emotional intelligence, unlike one of the other cats. This little kitty will stand up for herself when harassed by the aggressive cat, but when she initiates play, she pays attention to the other cats' reaction and backs off if the overtures are unwelcome.

Little kittens I had (years earlier) would make way for each other at the food dish. They would wait for each other at the litter box.


Hard to know all their motives, other than sharing and cooperation to get along which is surely largely the root of inherent sense of fairness.

Nice, but nothing to do with natural fairness or equity.

The frequency of unfairness is often observed. It's not accurate to say "nothing in life is fair"

In the sense that I used an absolute, you are correct. I don't like to use absolutes, however, I have yet to find any clear example in nature of "fairness" that isn't anthropomorphistic.

If you're saying "nothing in nature is ever fair" -- even if you defend that, are you saying you don't think people should aim for fairness just because nature has failed to reliably provide it?

Are we talking religion, or are we talking propaganda?

Law, since the Code of Hammurabi (or whatever the preferred spelling is currently), has been predicated on the abstraction of fairness. If you build a house for me, it falls and kills my son, your son should be executed, legally and fairly. That is the Code of Hammurabi.

Show me anything that equates in nature.

Life isn't fair. Get over it. Make of life what you want it to be. Live your life for you. Be what you want to be (you will anyway, whether you are cognizant of it or not). If you are not happy with the situation you find yourself in, get out of it and start over. It isn't easy, but it can be done, all a person has to do is exercise their free will.

What I see promoted is surrender to circumstance. I'm disabled, so I can't do anything....I am my disability because the gummint and everyone else tells me so. Crabs in a bucket.

I *am*, me personally, disabled. I am *not* my disability. There are things I can no longer do. There are things I have to do differently. My brain still works, and I routinely outwork as many as 3 of my able bodied coworkers...even though I am disabled. My disability does not stop me, it only slows me down a bit and makes me think how to streamline my processes. I routinely think outside of the box, because all of the crabs are stuck in the box.

Don't you support some efforts to make sure rules are fair say, for competitions of some kind? For rule of law?

Conflation again. If playing a game, such as debate, then yes the "rules" should be for both (or all) parties involved.

But that is not the same as Law, and regardless, both are abstractions not found in reality.

Saying that "life isn't fair" is one of those empty replies adults sometimes give kids or young adults who point out unfairness.
I really don't know what the point of saying things like that is, to anybody. What is the goal? What is the hope? To defeat both goals and hope?
People mostly know by kindergarten that things aren't fair by default. Someone has to DO something for things to get fair.
When an adult says "well life isn't fair" what they mean is "I'm not going to do anything about it"

Perhaps in your experience, and I can't deny that possibility.

However, I have to look at reality. Reality is I'm short, with middle aged pudge, fixin' to retire, and sick of being dealt with unfairly in an increasingly reverse discriminatory environment due to DEI. I have been defrauded at work, and have lost any of the initial zeal and idealism that I began with, proving to me unequivocally that Rand was correct. I have sustained multiple injuries over time, and now I'm simply waiting for that chronic but mortal illness of old age to make itself known.

What about any of this is "fair?"

Justice is an altogether different matter. However, I will never see justice for the injustice I've already experienced, because I am not the correct gender, age, skin color, religion, etc etc etc - and lawyers (you know, those folks who practice the abstract Law as a profession) have sneaky ways of perpetuating my injustice.

I no longer have room in my religion for such abstractions. And I live my religion - daily.