Injustice, Anger and Forgiveness.

[talib-al-kalim]

So then, you do not believe in evolution as applied to humans?

Humans are not just another animal?

Yes, I do see us as a species of animals. I don't see why you think I don't.
What I want to point out is that the rules for wolves, lions, elephants, dolphins, craws (to give some examples of animals that have quite a set of social rules) are also different from each other

It is an unattainable philosophical ideal,

Yes

set up to fail,

which is common to all ideals

used by the "strong" to herd and corral the weak.

don't think so. The ideal often mobilises the weak to fight together against the unjust/unfair strong

Just ask Amir, I'm sure he can tell you all about it.

I thought you are a Christian. I think neither Christians nor Muslim can share his view as we believe that there's Greater than our higher self.

That doesn't dismiss embryonic morality in herding and pack animals in the wild, but it is embellished with an impossible ideal.

don't get you there...

Get past the impossible ideal and make the world the best you can for you. If you can help others raise themselves along the way, great! But you are not responsible for others outside of your charge (meaning you are responsible for your minor children, and those under your command in a military or employment situation), so if others can't or won't see the reality and apply it accordingly, that isn't on you.

Yes, we have to face our limits. We can't care for the whole world.
We need the courage and power to change what we can change, the serenity to accept what we cannot change and the wisdom to discern the one from the other (Reinhold Nibuhr)

Says who?

Myself

Since fairness is an impossible ideal, it is used on the masses to confuse and confound (and assuage with false promises).

Who's false promises do you refer to?

Which tells me that the entire concept of fairness is so vague as to be meaningless.

And you are being so unfair!

Is this then a compliment in your eyes?

It is an ideal, and to a point perhaps encouraged, but it isn't something to get my knickers in a twist if things don't go my way. If things don't go my way, I either let it go and work around it, or hire an attorney. Either way, I choose which in order to create the life I wish to live.

Do you wish to live a life where the people around you because you take advantage of them?

 

[talib-al-kalim]

Have you?

I have. I think it addresses the complexity of fairness, illness, righteousness the activity and the inactivity of God. I see in it a masterpiece of religious philosophy, not a prophetic writing. The entire dialogue is important, not only the (fictive, imo) answer of God.

 

[juantoo3]

Yes, I do see us as a species of animals. I don't see why you think I don't.

If "(f)airness is bound to the species, and our notion of fairness may not be applied to other species," then the concept is not founded in the animal world of reality.

What I want to point out is that the rules for wolves, lions, elephants, dolphins, craws (to give some examples of animals that have quite a set of social rules) are also different from each other

Irrelevant. That none of these other social animals carp on about "fairness" and "equity" and "equality" should be cause for consideration. I know I have.

don't think so. The ideal often mobilises the weak to fight together against the unjust/unfair strong

*After* perceived injustice has been done. Where is the hue and cry before, or more importantly, when the criers are the perpetrators???

I thought you are a Christian. I think neither Christians nor Muslim can share his view as we believe that there's Greater than our higher self.

I am an enigma.

don't get you there...

Not really surprised. Having attempted to equate animal morality with a human contrived unattainable ideal, I can see clearly the confusion, and I'm not in a place mentally to spell it all out. You are most welcome to peruse my old threads here, Morality within Evolution would a good place to start.

Yes, we have to face our limits. We can't care for the whole world.
We need the courage and power to change what we can change, the serenity to accept what we cannot change and the wisdom to discern the one from the other (Reinhold Nibuhr)

I understand the author to be St Francis of Assisi, Nibuhr must have "borrowed" it.

Myself

So I should disregard the sages and believe you instead?

Who's false promises do you refer to?

The false promise of fairness, doled out generously by those in positions of power to hoodwink the masses. That is the subject under discussion, no? Or has someone changed the subject and neglected to inform me?

Is this then a compliment in your eyes?

It is a statement of incredulity...

Do you wish to live a life where the people around you because you take advantage of them?

Syntax is broken, not sure what you mean as it sits. Show me anywhere here, where I "take advantage" (your words) of anyone. Until then, I expect a retraction of this false accusation.

 

[EricPH]

Oh, poor kid, he's had such a hard life. His two siblings and he all have different daddys, none of which are around. He never did his homework or schoolwork, and the teacher had the nerve to fail him with straight Fs, but the school graduated him anyway. He got fired from his job at the carwash, can you believe the boss fired him because he didn't show up for work for two weeks? OMG, the nerve of some people, can't they see what a rough life the kid has had. And now he's gone and shot that little girl, she shouldn't have been standing where he was shooting at the other teenager that bombed out of school and just got fired from KFC for not doing his job. What's the world coming to these days, can't they see the poor kid has just had such a rough life...

Tragically,thousands die every day as the result of starvation, grinding poverty and preventable disease. It amounts to a holocaust each year. Millions never get an education, millions go to bed hungry, millions are trapped in war torn areas, etc.

How can these people deal with injustice, anger and forgiveness?

 

[juantoo3]

Stateside? Nah.

Africa maybe.

Clearly you didn't read the articles I linked. Keith Moses did not grow up in a war torn environment. So your sad attempt at conflating issues doesn't work on a thoughtful, rational, critically thinking person...like me.

 

[juantoo3]

@Modesty if all you have is ridicule, you don't have much to stand on

 

[Modesty]

@Modesty if all you have is ridicule, you don't have much to stand on

I'm laughing at the completely uncalled for rudeness and arrogance.

 

[EricPH]

Stateside? Nah.

Africa maybe.

Injustice is injustice, whether it is Stateside or Africa.

Clearly you didn't read the articles I linked. Keith Moses did not grow up in a war torn environment. So your sad attempt at conflating issues doesn't work on a thoughtful, rational, critically thinking person...like me.

You gave one example of injustice, I gave another.

 

[juantoo3]

Injustice is injustice, whether it is Stateside or Africa.

You gave one example of injustice, I gave another.

I provided a specific example (two actually). You provided a rhetorical tug on heartstrings.

I provided fact, you provided opinion.

I looked at the matter clinically and judiciously, you approached the matter with a foregone conclusion based in propaganda.

You gave no example. You gave opinion. Perhaps you don't fully grasp the concept of evidence (example)?

As for injustice, I see varying degrees. Murder is far worse than something like name-calling or condescension based on a differing opinion.

 

[juantoo3]

'you're only as happy as you allow yourself to be' because I don't believe it is true.

Good, I don't believe that either. That is NOT what I said or meant.

Someone "searching for a new religion" really isn't in a place to scold me, especially when they don't even comprehend what it was I actually wrote.

Religion is one size fits all (well, maybe two sizes). The only difference is the color or flavor.

I've known the essence of what I know as a very young child, since before I entered school. Religious faiths that I explore are to assist me in understanding what I already know, and allows me to convey those thoughts and principles to others because I cannot convey the direct experience.

I've earned the right to be an old codger. I've been here off and on for almost 20 years, 12 of them moderating this very site, keeping peace between rivalling factions when often I was at odds with both sides. This site is what it is in large part because of me.

Now I'm just a grumpy old man who has earned his stripes and bears them proudly. Lecture me again sometime when you catch up to where I am at. I will not be silenced, I have earned the right to speak my truth, quietly and clearly, and unapologetically.

 

[Modesty]

Good, I don't believe that either. That is NOT what I said or meant.

I was paraphrasing. The gist of the message is 'happiness is a choice'. You knew exactly what I meant.

Now I'm just a grumpy old man who has earned his stripes and bears them proudly.

Nope, you’re a just straight up mean person. I really don’t care how long you’ve been here, because my complaints have nothing to do with the site, but your behaviour. Nothing can give you the right to be an awful person.

 

[juantoo3]

You've made your opinion of me crystal clear from early on your arrival here.

Let's just say I'm reciprocating.

From here out you have nothing to say I wish to hear, as I'm sure you feel the same.

 

[Modesty]

You've made your opinion of me crystal clear from early on your arrival here.

Let's just say I'm reciprocating.

From here out you have nothing to say I wish to hear, as I'm sure you feel the same.

Yeah, because pretty much the only thing I've seen you do is be mean to people lol (although I joined almost two years ago and never interacted with you at all before recently, by the way). But that's fine with me! Next time I see you bullying someone I'll just ignore you and report you instead. Because I'm not going to not do anything when I see people being aggressive to people for no reason, my conscience doesn't allow it.

 

[EricPH]

juantoo3 said:
Oh, poor kid, he's had such a hard life. His two siblings and he all have different daddys, none of which are around. He never did his homework or schoolwork, and the teacher had the nerve to fail him with straight Fs, but the school graduated him anyway. He got fired from his job at the carwash, can you believe the boss fired him because he didn't show up for work for two weeks? OMG, the nerve of some people, can't they see what a rough life the kid has had. And now he's gone and shot that little girl, she shouldn't have been standing where he was shooting at the other teenager that bombed out of school and just got fired from KFC for not doing his job. What's the world coming to these days, can't they see the poor kid has just had such a rough life...

This sounds like a colourful account of events that could have happened.

I looked at the matter clinically and judiciously,

We have a different understanding of 'clinically'.

Had you said the boy shot the girl, and grazed her arm, we could make judgements? Or did he kill her? Was it premeditated? Even if we had these details, it would be for a judge and jury to decide.

There is injustice if the girl was shot, and if she is still alive, she is the one who has the right to be angry, or to forgive. Her parents and family could feel the injustice, but if they were not directly injured, do they have the right to be angry, or have the right to forgive on the girl's behalf?

I have earned the right to speak my truth, quietly and clearly, and unapologetically.

If it is only your truth, then I don't see how anyone else should take notice. I believe truth should be used to change ourselves, truth should not be used as a weapon against others.

Just my 2c.

 

[juantoo3]

This sounds like a colourful account of events that could have happened.

Injustice, Anger and Forgiveness.

Ever notice how so many (the proverbial "everyone") wants to stand out in a crowd...by being just the same? After so many tattoos, piercings (in atypical places) and primary colored hair, it all just blends into a chaotic mess. C'est la vie, not for me.

www.interfaith.org

Did happen, it appears you conveniently disregarded the links I posted to a current, ongoing story...not the first and likely not the last, sadly.

If it is only your truth, then I don't see how anyone else should take notice.

I don't want to appear as though I am picking on you...just remember this sword cuts both ways.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

Syntax is broken, not sure what you mean as it sits. Show me anywhere here, where I "take advantage" (your words) of anyone. Until then, I expect a retraction of this false accusation.

Sorry, yes, syntax is broken. I intended to ask,

"Do you wish to live a life where the people around you are angry with you because you take advantage of them?"

responding to that you said, you want to live your life...

I didn't intend to accuse you. Sorry if you understood it like that. I rather expected you would feel a "no" and understand better what I mean.

 

[juantoo3]

Sorry, yes, syntax is broken. I intended to ask,

"Do you wish to live a life where the people around you are angry with you because you take advantage of them?"

responding to that you said, you want to live your life...

I didn't intend to accuse you. Sorry if you understood it like that. I rather expected you would feel a "no" and understand better what I mean.

Fair enough, and thank you for the clarification.

Since I am not in the habit of deliberately taking advantage of others, the thought doesn't even cross my mind. That is not to say I haven't done so inadvertently, I suppose it could happen without intention.

I cannot live another person's life for them. I will not allow someone else to live my life for me. I seek the wisdom to guide my life, others may not and do not always grasp wisdom in the same manner or with the same understanding. I need to "work with" the Divine in order to guide my life, and make my own mistakes along the way. I have to allow others the same opportunity.

That is how I can disagree, and not sit in judgment. I have to tolerate, I do not have to accept.

 

[TheLightWithin]

If you build a house for me, it falls and kills my son, your son should be executed, legally and fairly. That is the Code of Hammurabi

Legal perhaps, but the fairness eludes me.
Of course I'm more used to the idea of every individual being seen as an individual and having innate value and having personal rights. In my world and my understanding of it: My parents' actions in the world should not lead to myself being punished. I don't care whose children someone thinks they killed.

 

[juantoo3]

Legal perhaps, but the fairness eludes me.
Of course I'm more used to the idea of every individual being seen as an individual and having innate value and having personal rights. In my world and my understanding of it: My parents' actions in the world should not lead to myself being punished. I don't care whose children someone thinks they killed.

I agree, wholeheartedly. Law evolved over time as well. Even the Bible teaches a man is responsible foremost for his own self. There is guidance as well for children and those under one's responsibility (military, employee). But the Code of Hammurabi as far as I know, was the first written legal code, and they took equity literally.

 

[TheLightWithin]

A poor person can be happy, a rich person can be miserable.

There's more to it than that, surely (it being the topic of fairness, happiness, and whether one can choose to be happy or not)

Are you not conflating issues? I said nothing of injustice. Justice is a matter of law, which by its very nature is an artificial, manmade abstraction.

Just for fun, spell out your idea of the distinction betwixt fairness and justice, between fair and just.

Life isn't fair. Get over it

That's one of those things people like to say. Esp to kids, which just made me discouraged and disheartened as a kid, and later just irritated and distrustful toward those who said it. I never figured out how it was supposed to help to say "life's not fair" esp when everyone by kindergarten already knows it. I eventually figured out it just wasn't a good answer to anything and people said it when they didn't know what else to say and especially when they were trying to justify not taking action (for example on bullies or something else actionable).

What was even more loopy to me is when a cranky adult snapped "life's not fair" (I guess they think they are giving an awesome, tough love life lesson or something?? Not sure) I couldn't help be feel that I was being smart-mouthed. I, a kid, a good kid, too, who right next door to never smart-mouthed the adults, being smart-mouthed by an adult. Who was supposed to be an authority figure. Unreal. Simply flabbergasting.

the gummint

I've seen this word used as a replacement for the word government before.
Just for fun: Can you say what misspelling the word government is supposed to do?
Teach lessons? Persuade? Something else?
Just curious.