Was Muhammad Really Talking to Jibril? (CLOSED THREAD)

[Naturalist]

No true Scotsman, bla bla.

It seems you don't understand the fallacy. I'm not committing it.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It seems you don't understand the fallacy. I'm not committing it.

Oh, I do..

To protect people of Scottish heritage from a possible accusation of guilt by association, one may use this fallacy to deny that the group is associated with this undesirable member or action. "No true Scotsman would do something so undesirable"; i.e., the people who would do such a thing are tautologically (definitionally) excluded from being part of our group such that they cannot serve as a counterexample to the group's good nature.

 

[Naturalist]

Oh, I do..

To protect people of Scottish heritage from a possible accusation of guilt by association, one may use this fallacy to deny that the group is associated with this undesirable member or action. "No true Scotsman would do something so undesirable"; i.e., the people who would do such a thing are tautologically (definitionally) excluded from being part of our group such that they cannot serve as a counterexample to the group's good nature.

I'm not protecting anyone from guilt by association. Hitler killed people (a fact) and he says he was Christian (a fact).

This doesn't mean all Germans killed or all Christians kill.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Hitler killed people (a fact) and he says he was Christian (a fact).

Correct..
..but "the Nazis" and Hitler are not synonymous.

Furthermore, it is not particularly relevant .. the majority of Germans identified as
Christians.

 

[Naturalist]

Correct..
..but "the Nazis" and Hitler are not synonymous.

Furthermore, it is not particularly relevant .. the majority of Germans identified as
Christians.

You wrote in an earlier comment, "..in fact, without religion, mankind would already be extinct.eg. Nazis and Communists annihilated each other."

Now you're stating the majority of Germans identified as Christians, and since Nazis were Germans, you contradict yourself.

With religion, some people kill. And without religion some people kill.

 

[muhammad_isa]

With religion, some people kill. And without religion some people kill.

Oh, I see what you are saying now..
..but I don't agree..

People kill with different intentions.
Murder is a major sin in Abrahamic religion.
Many atheists do not believe in sin.

 

[Naturalist]

Oh, I see what you are saying now..
..but I don't agree..

People kill with different intentions.
Murder is a major sin in Abrahamic religion.
Many atheists do not believe in sin.

First, it's not true that murder is a major sin in the Abrahamic religion. Look at the Crusades, look at Hamas, etc

God killed millions of innocent people in the Old Testament, and gave commands to his people to kill others for various reasons.

Second, one doesn't have to believe in sin to act a particular way. Many who claim to believe in sin, seem to sin quite easily, like the Nazis.

 

[muhammad_isa]

First, it's not true that murder is a major sin in the Abrahamic religion. Look at the Crusades, look at Hamas, etc.

No, no .. one does not look at "people" .. one looks at what the religion teaches.
We all KNOW that people are sinners.
Well, pious people do .. but as I say, many atheists don't acknowledge sin.

God killed millions of innocent people in the Old Testament..

G-d is not a person .. G-d gives life and takes life.
eg. we all die

Second, one doesn't have to believe in sin to act a particular way. Many who claim to believe in sin, seem to sin quite easily, like the Nazis.

Nationalism is undesirable .. it is an extremist ideology
i.e. that one tribe is better than another

It is unfortunate that mankind has a tendency towards sin .. but some people
TRY to avoid it, by remembering G-d.
Others get lost, and involved in evil.

 

[Naturalist]

No, no .. one does not look at "people" .. one looks at what the religion teaches.
We all KNOW that people are sinners.
Well, pious people do .. but as I say, many atheists don't acknowledge sin.


G-d is not a person .. G-d gives life and takes life.
eg. we all die


Nationalism is undesirable .. it is an extremist ideology
i.e. that one tribe is better than another

It is unfortunate that mankind has a tendency towards sin .. but some people
TRY to avoid it, by remembering G-d.
Others get lost, and involved in evil.

You can't look at what a religion teaches, because that requires interpretation, and one can interpret scriptures thousands of different ways. You have to look at how people behave based on their interpretation of religion.

Do you think "G-d" and "God" are meaningfully different?

G@d is whatever you imagine it to be.

Is your imagined G@d not capable of teaching people?

 

[muhammad_isa]

You can't look at what a religion teaches, because that requires interpretation, and one can interpret scriptures thousands of different ways..

A poor excuse .. we can learn a lot from Orthodox Rabbis/Priests/Imams.

You have to look at how people behave based on their interpretation of religion.

All you can learn from that is how ignorant people might be.

 

[Naturalist]

A poor excuse .. we can learn a lot from Orthodox Rabbis/Priests/Imams.


All you can learn from that is how ignorant people might be.

You wrote, "All you can learn from that is how ignorant people might be"

That's the same reply I would give to, "...we can learn a lot from Orthodox Rabbis/Priests/Imams."

 

[muhammad_isa]

That's the same reply I would give to, "...we can learn a lot from Orthodox Rabbis/Priests/Imams."

Ignorant of what .. their religion?
What about those who hold Doctor of Divinity degrees?
..I know who I think is ignorant.

 

[Naturalist]

Ignorant of what .. their religion?
What about those who hold Doctor of Divinity degrees?
..I know who I think is ignorant.

Yes, most are believers and not understanders. They are ignorant of their religion from the point of view of a scholar of religion.

Those who hold Doctor of Divinity degrees should ask for a refund.

 

['Amir Alzzalam]

..nor for your great grandfather, in your view of what constitutes evidence.

There is zero evidence to this day . . . if you have any let's hear it instead of just treading water!

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'm not interested in tittle-tattle.

 

[RJM]

There is zero evidence to this day . . . if you have any let's hear it instead of just treading water!

All over again, you mean?

Yeshua Never Existed . . . Change my Mind

There is no conclusive evidence much less objective proof that Yeshua (the son of god/or god himself) ever existed. Change my mind . . . By the first century A.D., the Jews were looking for strong, magnetic leaders who could deliver them from the wrath of the Roman Empire. The Essenes developed...

www.interfaith.org

And here, from Page Five:

Follow Christ but not Christian

Posthumous writing means nothing only text that was actually authored by Yeshua would count as HIs philosophy. I don't think many historians would agree with you there.

www.interfaith.org

There are other threads too ...

Did Jesus Exist

25 min Fair and open Imo, although as a believer in the Incarnation, I obviously disagree with the conclusion. These scholarly videos make it so much easier to grasp the essentials than reading hundreds of pages of writing

www.interfaith.org

 

[talib-al-kalim]

In Gospels of John, though not explicit, it is inferred that Jesus and the Father was one, and after his resurrection Jesus was going to ascend to the Father.

The Mysticists, both Christian and Muslim, also seek oneness with God, but they don't seek to be God.
John's Christology is complex.

The Nazis were Christian, see Hitler's Main Kampf.

You are not a Christian just by saying you are. See the deeds of Hitler and compare it to the teachings of Jesus in the Gospel accounts. Same for many others.

There are bad atheists and bad religious people, and there are good ones.

For sure. But bad religious people either don't understand essential messages or they are hypocrites

 

[talib-al-kalim]

First, it's not true that murder is a major sin in the Abrahamic religion. Look at the Crusades, look at Hamas, etc

Still, it is.

God killed millions of innocent people in the Old Testament, and gave commands to his people to kill others for various reasons.

True, in the interpretation of the Tanach writers.

Second, one doesn't have to believe in sin to act a particular way. Many who claim to believe in sin, seem to sin quite easily, like the Nazis.

You can believe in sin and stay true to it.

 

[Naturalist]

The Mysticists, both Christian and Muslim, also seek oneness with God, but they don't seek to be God.
John's Christology is complex.

You are not a Christian just by saying you are. See the deeds of Hitler and compare it to the teachings of Jesus in the Gospel accounts. Same for many others.

For sure. But bad religious people either don't understand essential messages or they are hypocrites

In polytheism, many gods have offspring which are also deities. Jesus was the offspring of El (or Yahweh) and went to join his father. They are both deities, not the same.

You are employing the true Scotsman's fallacy regarding Hitler and Jesus.

Religious texts are self contradictory and contradict other texts. People interpret them differently. That's life.

 

[Naturalist]

Still, it is.

True, in the interpretation of the Tanach writers.

You can believe in sin and stay true to it.

No, the texts haven't changed recently, they say what they say.

You can believe in sin, but you won't stay true it. What one has to do is concoct a "commentary" which provides an escape route to commit the sin.