Sapere aude

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

. . . and your proof is . . . ?

A rational and logical mind is my proof. That we can exist in the dream world without a body is proof enough of one world of God, NDE experiences also indicate the existence of mind outside the known senses and this reality.

We all have our blink in time in this matrix, then our heart stops and the brain dies and we awake to the worlds to come.

The proof of all this was been shown to a couple of people, they hastened their departure from this fleeting world, this illusion of the senses. Baha'u'llah gave them that vision as a meditation for us, and even though suicide is forbidden, they were forgiven for hastening their departure.

One could say it is good God does not show everyone what is to come.

Personally I want to fly as in some of my dreams, flight that is unhindered and embrace the light of the world to come, a love, a peace, a happiness and joy beyond description.

I need no other proofs, but the Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[Thomas]

There is no actual "proof" for God.

Mea culpa – I should have phrased it better.

St Thomas, following Aristotle, puts forward five arguments for the existence of God,
"I answer that, The existence of God can be proved in five ways. The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion... (ST 1a, q2, a3.)

Although "God cannot be proven in our reasoning", nevertheless there is sufficient reason to argue the existence of God – although it is clear that this 'God' is not the God of Scripture, and nor does St Thomas make that claim.

"The proofs of the existence of God of Thomas Aquinas all start from assumptions, which would need a proof as well."

Is not the First Way, the argument from motion, based on experience and argued from that?

Tony is right in that we follow the prophets, and our faith in God is based on the prophets (and our differences are about whom we accept as a prophet).

Indeed.

 

[Thomas]

Yes and no and I would have to explain the details of my current frame of reference Thomas.

I hope my response to @talib-al-kalim explains my frame of reference, in this instance the philosophical viewpoint, rather than a denominational perspective.

If using the Five Ways with logic and reason is a sure way to find God ...

It's a sure way to argue for the existence of God, but I don't think it's a way to find God.

Of course, some might find the philosophical argument sufficiently compelling in itself to begin looking for God, and thus necessarily turn to the Revealed Traditions, so one could argue that is can be a first step on a journey.

And, as the various testimonies evidence, we can find God in the most unexpected ways and unexpected places ...

If all the Messengers are from God, as offered by Baha'u'llah ...

If opens the door to a whole other range of questions outside the current discussion.

... then if we have not embraced them (the Messengers) one and all, then we still have not found a large part of the knowledge of God that has been made available to us.

This pre-supposes that a Revealed Tradition is in some sense deficient and incomplete with regard to the attainment of that of which it speaks. I would rather say that each Revealed Tradition is sufficient in itself, containing all that is necessary to attain its end.

 

[talib-al-kalim]

[2:7] Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.
[2:10] There is a disease in their hearts, so Allah added to their disease and they shall have a painful chastisement because they lied.
[2:39] And (as to) those who disbelieve in and reject My communications, they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide
[2:88] And they say: Our hearts are covered. Nay, Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief; so little it is that they believe.
[2:161] Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all;
[2:162] Abiding in it; their chastisement shall not be lightened nor shall they be given respite.
[2:170] And when it is said to them, Follow what Allah has revealed, they say: Nay! We follow what we found our fathers upon. What! And though their fathers had no sense at all, nor did they follow the right way.
(Allah or Muhammad? Misappropriation)

Read the whole at https://www.al-islam.org/alphabetical-index-holy-quran/disbelievers

Those who do not open their minds to God cannot be guided because this guidance is performed by the guidance of our thoughts. This may be in prayer (dua, bringing our thoughts before God, then let them go), contemplation (be attentive to the outside, seeking oneness with the outside in God) or meditation (be attentive to the inside, feel your self and let your thoughts and your will go). Those who do not seek such experience or are not open to receive cannot be guided.

 

[Thomas]

As an aside, in developing his Five Ways, St Thomas drew on Aristotle, Ibn Sina (Avicenna) and Moses ben Maimon (Maimonides).

 

['Amir Alzzalam]

A rational and logical mind is my proof. That we can exist in the dream world without a body is proof enough of one world of God, NDE experiences also indicate the existence of mind outside the known senses and this reality.

NDE are a product of neurological shut downs when the brain is dying . . . nothing more
Your mind, whether you believe it to be rational and logical, is not proof
Exist in a dream world? Exist in what way?

We all have our blink in time in this matrix, then our heart stops and the brain dies and we awake to the worlds to come.

You know this . . . how?

The proof of all this was been shown to a couple of people, they hastened their departure from this fleeting world, this illusion of the senses. Baha'u'llah gave them that vision as a meditation for us, and even though suicide is forbidden, they were forgiven for hastening their departure.

One could say it is good God does not show everyone what is to come.

Personally I want to fly as in some of my dreams, flight that is unhindered and embrace the light of the world to come, a love, a peace, a happiness and joy beyond description.

I need no other proofs, but the Messengers.

Regards Tony

Shown by whom? Why only a couple of people? If there is a god, and there is not, it would be in His best interest to make it known to everyone without a shadow of a doubt that He is God and this is what we should all be following. But He didn't. hasn't and won't . . . because there is no god.

Messengers? Do you mean the deluded individuals who have invented lies to make other men believe they are somehow divine/special?

You're evidence is weak and you have shown not one iota of proof for anything you believe is true

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Although "God cannot be proven in our reasoning", nevertheless there is sufficient reason to argue the existence of God

That is not logical for me Thomas. All we have is a rational mind, all we can do is reason with the given evidence and facts, to which God supplies to us.

Life is naught but subjective, it is based on our nature, nurture and subsequent search for truths.

The only sure thing we know is that our body dies to this world, but then there are many that see that not as a sure thing.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I would rather say that each Revealed Tradition is sufficient in itself, containing all that is necessary to attain its end.

I see that is sound reasoning. Yet it would be a vary rare person that can see all the Names and Attributes of God in each tradition.

Example of that is when Jesus said

John 5:46-47 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

So Jesus is also saying that if you do not beleive in Christ, then you have also rejected Moses.

Regards Tony

 

[muhammad_isa]

If there is a god, and there is not, it would be in His best interest to make it known to everyone without a shadow of a doubt that He is God and this is what we should all be following..

You can't hear a radio station unless you "tune in" to it.
Are you tuning in? No .. you don't believe in this particular "station".

G-d is there for those whose hearts are not closed .. why should it be otherwise?

 

[muhammad_isa]

That is not logical for me Thomas. All we have is a rational mind..

Yes, and many people consider it to be irrational, for consciousness to exist without
reason.
Science is the observation of phenomena in the universe .. but tells us nothing about
why it even exists.

I, for one, do not deem it rational for this universe to exist without reason .. without purpose.
..hence the concept of God .. and then we see the signs through history!

 

['Amir Alzzalam]

You can't hear a radio station unless you "tune in" to it.
Are you tuning in? No .. you don't believe in this particular "station".

G-d is there for those whose hearts are not closed .. why should it be otherwise?

There wouldn't be any other radio stations to tune into . . . other than DJ G0D
G0D is there for those whose Minds are Closed

 

[muhammad_isa]

There wouldn't be any other radio stations to tune into . . .

Umm, no .. there are PLENTY of stations .. people tune in to all sorts of different "isms".

 

[Thomas]

That is not logical for me Thomas.

Nevertheless.

All we have is a rational mind, all we can do is reason with the given evidence and facts, to which God supplies to us.

Some regard nature as evidence enough in itself to stand as a signifier.
The rational mind works by observation and inference.

We need to be careful here, because if we attribute everything to God, then equally we absolve ourselves ... your argument could be used to infer all error is God's fault.

 

[Thomas]

G0D is there for those whose Minds are Closed

Or ... God is there for those whose minds are open to something beyond themselves.

 

[Thomas]

I see that is sound reasoning. Yet it would be a vary rare person that can see all the Names and Attributes of God in each tradition.

Nor do they need to ... one suffices – it covers all the attributes.

 

[Thomas]

If there is a god, and there is not, it would be in His best interest to make it known to everyone without a shadow of a doubt that He is God and this is what we should all be following. But He didn't. hasn't and won't . . . because there is no god.

What about this 'Godself' of whom you speak? This Greater Self, what has it achieved in the world?

What arts, what sciences, what humanities signify its existence as 'greater' than those arts, sciences and humanities that surround us?

Why does it not make itself known, to save itself from this sorry mess it finds itself in?

What has been its contribution to humanity?

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. and even though suicide is forbidden, they were forgiven for hastening their departure.

So Bahaollah was a judge too? No need of a God?

 

[Aupmanyav]

The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion... (ST 1a, q2, a3.)

Although "God cannot be proven in our reasoning", nevertheless there is sufficient reason to argue the existence of God – although it is clear that this 'God' is not the God of Scripture, and nor does St Thomas make that claim.

What motion (AristotleSt. Thomas Aquinas) are you talking about? What does (ST 1a, q2, a3) mean? Are they links?
God cannot be proven either by reason or evidence. Your sentence is contradictory. Furthermore, it invalidates all scriptures.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Those who do not open their minds to God cannot be guided because this guidance is performed by the guidance of our thoughts. This may be in prayer (dua, bringing our thoughts before God, then let them go), contemplation (be attentive to the outside, seeking oneness with the outside in God) or meditation (be attentive to the inside, feel your self and let your thoughts and your will go). Those who do not seek such experience or are not open to receive cannot be guided.

Ah! When I ask for reason or evidence, you say God has closed my eyes.
Same for messengers and manifestations.
I can see the emperor's clothes only when I get my nose cut?

So Jesus is also saying that if you do not beleive in Christ, then you have also rejected Moses.

Yeah, I have no reason to believe in God and all these, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Bahaollah and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Also Joseph Smith. Give me a reason or evidence.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Ah! When I ask for reason or evidence, you say God has closed my eyes..

No need .. you are doing that yourself!