Sapere aude

Aupmanyav said:
Ah! When I ask for reason or evidence, you say God has closed my eyes.
Same for messengers and manifestations.
I can see the emperor's clothes only when I get my nose cut?

Yeah, I have no reason to believe in God and all these, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Bahaollah and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Also Joseph Smith. Give me a reason or evidence.
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Jesus said "A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.” And He left them and departed."
 
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
So Jesus is also saying that if you do not beleive in Christ, then you have also rejected Moses.
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Yeah, I have no reason to believe in God and all these, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Bahaollah and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Also Joseph Smith. Give me a reason or evidence.
muhammad_isa said:
You can't hear a radio station unless you "tune in" to it.
Are you tuning in? No .. you don't believe in this particular "station". 😐
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I searched the whole spectrum. There was no sound coming.
 
Faithfulservant said:
Jesus said "A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.” And He left them and departed."
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He too was running away from questions, because he neither had a reason nor any evidence of what he was saying. Why should you consider my generation (I am 81), or that of my son, or that of my grandson, as wicked. We have lived like any other people. The only difference is that I am an atheist. Do you think all atheists are wicked?
 
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muhammad_isa said:
Yes, and many people consider it to be irrational, for consciousness to exist without
reason.

I, for one, do not deem it rational for this universe to exist without reason .. without purpose.
..hence the concept of God .. and then we see the signs through history!
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Yes, there is a reason for consciousness, the brain and its 80 billion neurons and their axons and dendrites.
Yes, the universe also exists because of reasons, perhaps Quantum Mechanics. Science does not see any purpose, Even if universe and a purpose for its existence is there, that does not prove God (of Gaps). There have been no signs through history.
muhammad_isa said:
Umm, no .. there are PLENTY of stations .. people tune in to all sorts of different "isms".
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No 'ism' has ever provided evidence.
Theists, you are following a mirage.
 
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Thomas said:
What about this 'Godself' of whom you speak? This Greater Self, what has it achieved in the world?
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Realizing that the only god we will ever come to know will be our Greater Self (Consciousness/Psyche/Self) is a liberating force that enables us to side-step the delusions of the RHP religions and allows us to truly see life as it should be.
Thomas said:
What arts, what sciences, what humanities signify its existence as 'greater' than those arts, sciences and humanities that surround us?
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The Arts are the Arts . . . who said any are 'greater' than others?
Thomas said:
Why does it not make itself known, to save itself from this sorry mess it finds itself in?
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The GS is not concerned with humanity per se, It is concerned with Its lesser self.
The GS is conscious energy evolving and growing through the experiences of its creations. The physical body provides a vehicle in which the psyche can become aware of itself and then reach out toward the limitlessness of its conscious existence.

Thomas said:
What has been its contribution to humanity?
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Already answered this
 
Aupmanyav said:
Ah! When I ask for reason or evidence, you say God has closed my eyes.
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You quoted the Quran, and I have explained what it means.
I don't know whether God can guide you if you do what I described in my answer but you don't believe in God.
Do you do such exercises?
 
Aupmanyav said:
What motion (AristotleSt. Thomas Aquinas) are you talking about?
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The First of the Five Ways

If you look round the web, there are loads of people who claim to have shown how these 'ways' are undone by some inherent error.
And also, loads of people (less and usually better philosophers) who can answer the objections raised against them.

Arguing back and forth is like a tour of three thousand years of philosophy ...

So, in short, these are five ways to argue the thing we call God if you believe in God. If you don't believe in God, the argument is irrelevant – except that they can be used against the argument that God does not/cannot exist.

If, however, one believes in God in principle – this is the argument from philosophy, not revelation – then the Five Ways, as they are currently expressed, are reasonable, rational, logical, etc.
 
'Amir Alzzalam said:
Realizing that the only god we will ever come to know will be our Greater Self (Consciousness/Psyche/Self) is a liberating force that enables us to side-step the delusions of the RHP religions and allows us to truly see life as it should be.
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That's circular reasoning.

'Amir Alzzalam said:
The Arts are the Arts . . . who said any are 'greater' than others?
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I don't know. Not me.

'Amir Alzzalam said:
The GS is not concerned with humanity per se, It is concerned with Its lesser self.
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Is not the lesser self part of humanity? Is that not where the path starts?

'Amir Alzzalam said:
The GS is conscious energy evolving and growing through the experiences of its creations. The physical body provides a vehicle in which the psyche can become aware of itself and then reach out toward the limitlessness of its conscious existence.
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Or – in the absence of any evidence to the contrary – it could be complete self-deception.

'Amir Alzzalam said:
Already answered this
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Oh, I must have missed it ...

Again, not trying to disprove your path, just suggesting that people in glass houses ...
 
Thomas said:
That's circular reasoning.


I don't know. Not me.


Is not the lesser self part of humanity? Is that not where the path starts?


Or – in the absence of any evidence to the contrary – it could be complete self-deception.


Oh, I must have missed it ...

Again, not trying to disprove your path, just suggesting that people in glass houses ...
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Your argument is that Theism as well as the WLHP is subjective, correct?
 
Thomas said:
That's circular reasoning.
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How so?
Thomas said:
I don't know. Not me.
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Yet you accused me of saying it
Thomas said:
Is not the lesser self part of humanity? Is that not where the path starts?
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The lesser self is the mundane being, the WLHP starts with the Awareness of One's GS.
Thomas said:
Or – in the absence of any evidence to the contrary – it could be complete self-deception.
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It could be . . . however, when one experiences 'Self' examining 'self', it is obvious that it is not self-deception.
Thomas said:
Oh, I must have missed it ...

Again, not trying to disprove your path, just suggesting that people in glass houses ...
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I fully understand, and I find your line of questioning challenging and helpful in sharpening the sword so-to-speak!
 
Thomas said:
We need to be careful here, because if we attribute everything to God, then equally we absolve ourselves ... your argument could be used to infer all error is God's fault.
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Is it care needed, or is it just an understanding of what the purpose of the matrix is?

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Our free will is part of the plan, our choices are included in the plan God has for our rational soul.

Regards Tony
 
Thomas said:
Nor do they need to ... one suffices – it covers all the attributes.
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Unless it is part of God's plan for all the Names of God to be one.

I see it is more than Global, I see it is universal, multiversal, spanning all of God’s Worlds.

One of the most important attributes is Justice and it is not just to accept One Name of God and ignore all the others. All those Names are part of every Message given of God.

Regards Tony
 
Aupmanyav said:
He too was running away from questions, because he neither had a reason nor any evidence of what he was saying. Why should you consider my generation (I am 81), or that of my son, or that of my grandson, as wicked. We have lived like any other people. The only difference is that I am an atheist. Do you think all atheists are wicked
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There is nothing inherently “good” within any of us. There is nothing in us that could earn salvation, and on our own we have no ability to become worthy of God’s favor. We deserve only God’s wrath.

The sticking point to that verse I posted is that the sign of Jonah was that he spent 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the whale until he was "resurrected" or released. This is what happened to Jesus. That's the only sign for the generations to be looking for.
 
Aupmanyav said:
Yeah, I have no reason to believe in God and all these, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Bahaollah and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Also Joseph Smith. Give me a reason or evidence.
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I am not here to change your choices, just offer what is available.

Regards Tony
 
Faithfulservant said:
There is nothing inherently “good” within any of us. There is nothing in us that could earn salvation, and on our own we have no ability to become worthy of God’s favor. We deserve only God’s wrath.
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We are born in God's Image, that is in the Image that is Christ.

The potential is within all of us, yet we must be born again from the flesh into that Spirit that is Christ. Born from the edge of darkness, into the light. Left to our own self, we dive into the darkness of materialism.

Regards Tony
 
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