Sapere aude

[muhammad_isa]

The issue isn't common sense.

Then what is it?

You say "Human free will is just an emotion, that you feel. It doesn't actually exist."
That goes against common-sense, imo.

You imply that courts of law "have got it wrong".

 

[Naturalist]

Then what is it?

You say "Human free will is just an emotion, that you feel. It doesn't actually exist."
That goes against common-sense, imo.

You imply that courts of law "have got it wrong".

The issues are critical thinking and willful ignorance. Everyone has some degree of common sense...of course it depends on the topic.

There are a large number of phenomena that go against common sense, they're called counter-intuitive. That's why they are difficult to comprehend as most people only think in the world of common sense. But the evidence shows that these counter-intuitive phenomena are reality.

Free will is one example. Another is time. Common sense says time goes by at the same rate for everyone, but that's not true. Time is relative.

I'm not sure what you mean by courts of law have got it wrong....are you referring to lack of free will and judicial punishment or something else?

 

[Faithfulservant]

I just want to say that no two people on this forum believe the same things. They may have similar beliefs but never 100%. It's quite diverse here.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The issues are critical thinking and willful ignorance. Everyone has some degree of common sense...of course it depends on the topic.

OK..

There are a large number of phenomena that go against common sense, they're called counter-intuitive. That's why they are difficult to comprehend as most people only think in the world of common sense. But the evidence shows that these counter-intuitive phenomena are reality..

Right..

Free will is one example..

It is difficult for many to understand, yes.

Another is time. Common sense says time goes by at the same rate for everyone, but that's not true. Time is relative.

Indeed.

I'm not sure what you mean by courts of law have got it wrong....are you referring to lack of free will and judicial punishment or something else?

Quite .. if we do not have the ability to make decisions of our own free-will,
then why should anybody be held responsible for their actions?

 

[Naturalist]

OK..


Right..


It is difficult for many to understand, yes.


Indeed.


Quite .. if we do not have the ability to make decisions of our own free-will,
then why should anybody be held responsible for their actions?

I am not familiar with the UK justice system, but in the U.S. over the last few decades, a defendant's personal history has played a greater role in sentencing, because we know the defendant is a "victim" of the past. But this falls short of full acknowledgment of lack of free will.

There is ongoing discussions in many areas of academics, like philosophy, law, and psychology.

Here's an easy to read article: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/talking-apes/202007/can-we-have-justice-without-free-will

 

[muhammad_isa]

I am not familiar with the UK justice system, but in the U.S. over the last few decades, a defendant's personal history has played a greater role in sentencing, because we know the defendant is a "victim" of the past. But this falls short of full acknowledgment of lack of free will..

It makes no sense..
You say: "You make a choice, the choice is based on the past. If your parents didn't have sex you wouldn't even be here."

Driving a car, and what my parents got up to are different topics!

Nobody is saying that the choices we make aren't influenced by our past .. but "set" by them?
That goes against common-sense and intuition, and needs evidence, to show that free-will
is "just an illusion".

Here's an easy to read article: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/talking-apes/202007/can-we-have-justice-without-free-will

It assumes that free-will is an illusion, but has no evidence to show..

 

[Naturalist]

It makes no sense..
You say: "You make a choice, the choice is based on the past. If your parents didn't have sex you wouldn't even be here."

Driving a car, and what my parents got up to are different topics!

Nobody is saying that the choices we make aren't influenced by our past .. but "set" by them?
That goes against common-sense and intuition, and needs evidence, to show that free-will
is "just an illusion".


It assumes that free-will is an illusion, but has no evidence to show..

The word "Illusion" is used frequently, and I understand why, but I prefer the word "emotion". When you feel happy, you really feel happy, I wouldn't call it an illusion, it's a mental sensation. Likewise, when you feel like you made a free choice, you really feel it. That feeling is not an illusion, it's another mental sensation.

There are thousands of hard to comprehend papers on the subject, I gave you an easy to read blog post, to get you started.

In order to more fully comprehend the issue, you have to understand causal determinism, which really began with Aristotle's "Unmoved Mover". This concept was stolen by the major Abrahamic religions as a justification for God. Since everything has a cause, if you work backwards, there must be a first cause which has no cause, therefore God. Many problems with that logic, but that's another topic.

There's billions of pieces of evidence for causal determinism...when you are sick the doctor tries to find the cause. When there's a fire, an investigator tries to find the cause. When a plane crashes, an investigator tries to find the cause. Etc.

So if you want a taste of a more complex discussion, here's another link:

Causal Determinism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 

[muhammad_isa]

In order to more fully comprehend the issue, you have to understand causal determinism..

That is just another way of saying that the past is responsible for your choices..

There's billions of pieces of evidence for causal determinism..

Well, please show me them..

..when you are sick the doctor tries to find the cause. When there's a fire, an investigator tries to find the cause. When a plane crashes, an investigator tries to find the cause. Etc.

What has that got to do with free-will? Nothing, that I can see.

Causal Determinism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

That is just philosophical waffle .. not evidence.

 

[Naturalist]

That is just another way of saying that the past is responsible for your choices..


Well, please show me them..


What has that got to do with free-will? Nothing, that I can see.


That is just philosophical waffle .. not evidence.

You are a tough nut to crack!

Can you understand that for something to happen, something has to cause it to happen? Do you not observe that everyday of your life? A virus CAUSES some disease. An electrical malfunction CAUSES a fire. A loss of engine power CAUSES an airplane crash. You touching your keyboard CAUSES a character to display on your screen. Trillions of examples.

If you can't understand this, there's nothing more I can do on the internet.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You are a tough nut to crack!

Can you understand that for something to happen, something has to cause it to happen? Do you not observe that everyday of your life?

Yes, I understand that.
As far as I can see, we ALL contribute to the cause of things happening .. as well as other
things, that we take no part in .. the things that you consider encompasses all.

A virus CAUSES some disease. An electrical malfunction CAUSES a fire. A loss of engine power CAUSES an airplane crash. You touching your keyboard CAUSES a character to display on your screen. Trillions of examples.

If you can't understand this, there's nothing more I can do on the internet.

I can understand that.
I can also understand that there is a "me" inside, and a "you" inside, that makes decisions.
In order to believe in causal determinism, you pretend that there isn't, and that you are an automaton.

It is your BELIEF, and a belief that means that we are not responsible for our actions.
..then who/what is??

 

[Naturalist]

Yes, I understand that.
As far as I can see, we ALL contribute to the cause of things happening .. as well as other
things, that we take no part in .. the things that you consider encompasses all.


I can understand that.
I can also understand that there is a "me" inside, and a "you" inside, that makes decisions.
In order to believe in causal determinism, you pretend that there isn't, and that you are an automaton.

It is your BELIEF, and a belief that means that we are not responsible for our actions.
..then who/what is??

Good! We have to go step by step. You agree that casual determinism is the way the Universe works.

Now, do you understand that you are made of particles? Your organs are made of tissues, the tissues are made of cells, the cells are made of organelles, etc. We eventually get down to molecules and those are made of atoms.

So for something to happen to these particles, there must be CAUSES associated with those happenings?

If you can agree to all that, realize that your brain is an organ composed of particles, too.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Good! We have to go step by step. You agree that casual determinism is the way the Universe works.

Now, do you understand that you are made of particles? Your organs are made of tissues, the tissues are made of cells, the cells are made of organelles, etc. We eventually get down to molecules and those are made of atoms.

So for something to happen to these particles, there must be CAUSES associated with those happenings?

If you can agree to all that, realize that your brain is an organ composed of particles, too.

Yes, we know all that. I have a decent education.
..but you have not responded to the points I raise.

I do not believe that I'm not responsible for my actions.
In turn, that means that our actions are part of the cause.
It does not matter where our decisions originate .. brains or planet mars!

 

[Naturalist]

Yes, we know all that. I have a decent education.
..but you have not responded to the points I raise.

I do not believe that I'm not responsible for my actions.
In turn, that means that our actions are part of the cause.
It does not matter where our decisions originate .. brains or planet mars!

You are responsible for your actions in the sense that if you do something, it wasn't someone else who did it, it was you who did it.

But you are not responsible for your actions because you could not have chosen to do otherwise.

----------

So going back to earlier...if you know physics, you know we like to describe reality mathematically with equations.

Given some initial conditions, we solve an equation to determine the final condition. We do this with planets (large particles), we do this when we make weather forecasts ( a huge number of particles), etc. The math can be complex.

If the Universe was not deterministic, we could not do this. But the Universe is deterministic.

That means your brain works the same way, given an initial state, we can calculate a final state.

There is no possibility for you to change this outcome. Your "decision" depends on your initial brain state, which depends on its prior state, and again on its prior state. There's no room for free will to change the outcome.

The initial state of your brain is out of your control, and the final state of your brain is out of your control.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..you are not responsible for your actions because you could not have chosen to do otherwise..

That is just your belief. It is not a proved scientific fact.
Show me the theorem.

Given some initial conditions, we solve an equation to determine the final condition. We do this with planets (large particles), we do this when we make weather forecasts ( a huge number of particles), etc. The math can be complex.

If the Universe was not deterministic, we could not do this. But the Universe is deterministic..

Now you are trying to blind us with science.
There is no proof that the universe is deterministic .. quantum theory is not absolute.

That means your brain works the same way, given an initial state, we can calculate a final state..

That's no more than amusing, to me.
I doubt whether you could even determine the final state of my computer!

There is no possibility for you to change this outcome. Your "decision" depends on your initial brain state, which depends on its prior state, and again on its prior state. There's no room for free will to change the outcome.

You have your belief .. I have mine.
I AM responsible for my actions. I CAN choose otherwise, and I seek refuge with G-d,
that I choose that which pleases Him. Amen.

The initial state of your brain is out of your control, and the final state of your brain is out of your control.

Yes .. if satan is in control of it.

 

[Naturalist]

That is just your belief. It is not a proved scientific fact.
Show me the theorem.


Now you are trying to blind us with science.
There is no proof that the universe is deterministic .. quantum theory is not absolute.


That's no more than amusing, to me.
I doubt whether you could even determine the final state of my computer!


You have your belief .. I have mine.
I AM responsible for my actions. I CAN choose otherwise, and I seek refuge with G-d,
that I choose that which pleases Him. Amen.


Yes .. if satan is in control of it.

You previously agreed that the Universe was deterministic, you wrote, "Yes, we know all that. I have a decent education"

Now you're going backwards. I'm done.

 

[RJM]

The Anthropic Principle is a cop-out: "Things are that way because that's just the way they are."

Life is anti-entropic and man is much more than the sum of his parts, imo. Man is open to subtle but extremely powerful 'spiritual' forces and senses beyond his purely animal nature

The Earth itself is a living entity. There is far more to life than the carbon-based life forms which we as human beings are able to recognize.

Science deals with the mechanism, not with the origin or purpose. Science is not qualified to pronounce upon the origin or purpose

Science cannot judge upon the origin of the 'energy' from which all material things originate and to which they all return

In the end it's all just speculation

 

[RJM]

Gravity has no cause. Energy has no cause. The electron proton equality of charge has no cause.

 

[Naturalist]

The Anthropic Principle is a cop-out: "Things are that way because that's just the way they are."

Life is anti-entropic and man is much more than the sum of his parts, imo. Man is open to subtle but extremely powerful 'spiritual' forces and senses beyond his purely animal nature

The Earth itself is a living entity. There is far more to life than the carbon-based life forms which we as human beings are able to recognize.

Science deals with the mechanism, not with the origin or purpose. Science is not qualified to pronounce upon the origin or purpose

Science cannot judge upon the origin of the 'energy' from which all material things originate and to which they all return

In the end it's all just speculation

It's not. You are willfully ignorant.

 

[Naturalist]

Gravity has no cause. Energy has no cause. The electron proton equality of charge has no cause.

Gravity is caused by mass. Energy is caused by the Big Bang. The cause of. electron and proton equality of charge is conservation of charge.

 

[RJM]

Gravity is caused by mass

And which itself is energy

Energy is caused by the Big Bang.

Which came into being from no cause -- as does your supposed vacuum energy from no cause.

The cause of. electron and proton equality of charge is conservation of charge.

You need to explain more carefully why the charges just happen to be exactly equal and opposite, enabling atoms to form

No it is not. You are willfully ignorant.

The Anthropic Principle is childish. Life is anti-entropic in all practical sense.

The universe had no need to form. Especially not the universe that accommodates man. What's the answer?

Oh yes -- the Anthropic Principle -- just because, that's why. LOL!

You say on one hand it's all deterministic, on the other hand it's all random chance. Man isn't just a bag of meat. I'm not wilfully ignorant for ignoring the fact