on Faith

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

I see clearly there is more to Christ's offer than Baha'u'llah allows – partakers of the Divine Nature, not merely the exemplary 'attributes' of human nature evidenced in the lives of prophets, saints and sages.

I see the Divine Nature is in Essence the Holy Spirit and that is where all the attributes emanate from, they are not part of the human nature. The Divine Nature, or Holy Spirit is the First Cause, it is the all the Messengers, it is all their Names, it is all the Attributes, it is Love.

It is the evidence of God, Annointed to and given in the lives of prophets. The saints, sages, the Concourse on high have partaken of that, only by choosing to be born again.

Regards Tony

 

[muhammad_isa]

Does Islam discuss why Gabriel did not visit the fallen Adam with the noble Quran?

That is another issue.
That would be equivalent to asking "Why has G-d revealed different Scriptures in varying languages over time?"

The answer would be that the Scriptures revealed do not vary in core concept and message.
I think you know that G-d sent Messengers / Prophets to mankind over 1000's of years.
The evidence is there in the OT..
..and "what do you know", the same claim about Divinity of Messengers, was made in the past.
It's in our nature, I suppose, to concentrate on what we know .. our heritage and what-not.

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

And your assertion that by rejecting one you reject all is an error of (metaphysical) attribution. At the level of the One, all is One; at the level of Forms, of the world, they are distinct and diverse. Adhering to one is neither a rejection nor a negation, it's an embrace. One must respond "with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind" (cf Luke 10:27).

It is not my assertion Thomas, it was the Word of God as given by Baha'u'llah that imputes that to us.

In the Tablet of Ahmad

"....Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity..."

I see that Beauty is the Holy Sprit, it is The Essence of the Messengers, it is "Christ".

We both get to choose our path.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

If that were true, then you would embrace His word, and have no need of another. You embrace Baha'u'llah all the more.

It is true, they are all One and with God. I have personally chosen to embrace "The Glory of God", as God has, as God Chooses to do, fulfilled the promises given in the Tanakh and by Jesus Christ.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

As ever, that's not what the author means. Heaven forbid David Bentley Hart ever turning up here – he would excoriate you for suggesting such a short-sighted interpretatyion that founders on its own contradiction.

Suffice to say – in gentler terms – you've misconstrued his use of the term 'apocalypse'. The word derives from the Greek apokalyptein, 'to uncover, disclose, reveal'. The end-of-the-world 'cataclysmic' idea is from "Apokalypsis" (the last book of the New Testament).

In Hart, the term retains its proper meaning of a 'revelation' of divine origin that 'irrupts' – a breaking-into the world – without warning or foreknowledge, thus nothing like the apocalyptic millenarianism of some Christian and (I'm led to believe) Baha'ism.

It also refers to its aspect of an event that by virtue of its transcendent appearance is discontinuous with the past, and thus the element of surprise or even shock and upheaval for those 'traditionalists' with their eyes fixed on the past.

One such 'apocalypse' was the formulation of the Nicene-Constantinople Creed, another the Christological declarations of Chalcedon (425AD). It may well be that Vatican II might emerge, in years to come, as another apocalypse in the life of the living Church

Of course it is not what the author means as what was offered was in turn seen with a different frame of reference that is inclusive of all other faiths.

The apocalypse you describe is exactly as a Baha'i would see it, and it also has material dimensions.

The end of an Era happened in 1844. The rejection of the Bab and Baha'u'llah fulfills perfectly with your comments, quited below.

"It also refers to its aspect of an event that by virtue of its transcendent appearance is discontinuous with the past, and thus the element of surprise or even shock and upheaval for those 'traditionalists' with their eyes fixed on the past"

Regards Tony

 

[talib-al-kalim]

Then why not just follow Jesus?

Most Muslims, and most Baha'i have never read the New Testament

This is the Christian forum and Paul in Hebrews 11:1 is writing about Jesus. He's not writing about Baha'u'llah or any other new 'updated' Christ figure

Scholars mostly agree that Hebrews is not by Paul.

 

[RJM]

No one has seen the Father not even the Son

@Tony Bristow-Stagg
Am interested in your reference for the above^

Arguing about the Essence of God is fruitless, as no one, not even the Son Jesus knows anything about the Essence of God.

"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; he has seen the Father. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in me has everlasting life. I am the bread of life."
John 6:46-48 nkjv


“If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”

Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
John 14:7-9


All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Come to me, all you who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
Matthew 11:27-30

Scholars mostly agree that Hebrews is not by Paul.

Fair enough. I was responding to the quote from Hebrews in the opening post:
“Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not”

 

[Thomas]

You approached that reply in the light of your LOL Thomas.

I was trying to make light as you take offence so readily.

Gathering those passages was not an answer, it is evidence that the Trinity as a doctrine does not work.

Oh, but it does.

OK – show me how it doesn't.

Be warned – there a vast amount of scholarship out there. safer to say in your opinion it doesn't – I can see that. Your 'frame of reference' cannot allow it – and statements such as yours suggests a certain fundamentalism.
(It might be the case that there's a lack of insight and understanding.)

On the one hand we have the Trinitarian theology ranging across centuries of Christian thought.
We also have philosophical debates regarding the One and the Many, and the likes of Plotinus and Proclus coming up with analogous triune theories like the One, Intellect and the Soul; we have Hindu's Cit-Sat-Ananda (Being-Consciousness-Bliss) – and all necessarily prefigured in the One.

So the One is simple, a Unity without Diversity ... but now we're really pushing metaphysical bounds.

(In fact the evidence is compelling, when we consider the universe – a lower order of existence cannot possess a property that is not already in its Cause, nor can a Cause effect something greater than itself.)

So there is necessarily Unity in the One, and this is what the theological Trinity is all about.

The activity of the Divine Persons of the Trinity in the world is particular to this universe, and here we can have a hierarchy of Father and Son and Holy Spirit, in which the Father reveals the Son (who is always with the Father and the Holy Spirit) and the Son in turn reveals the Holy Spirit (who is always with the Father and the Son) – a vertical line.

Mystical assent is then by the reverse process – the Holy Spirit reveals the Son in and to the soul, and the soul cries "Abba!" (Father) in recognition (Galatians 4:6 and Romans 8:15) – the point here is the soul can only say Abba in a confessional sense; but when the Holy Spirit Indwells the soul, then the recognition is immediate and most intimate, the soul cries out with the Son's voice, as it were, being in union with Christ.

and that we need to look at the topic with new eyes and be open to hearing new ideas.

But your 'frame of reference' disallows everything unique and mystical in mine. It reduces mine to a banality.

When I read the commentaries of spiritual writers – and not Christian ones alone (I'm talking of the Traditionalist School within the Sophia Perennis), and indeed particularly a Sufi and a Tibetan Buddhist – then both have opened my eyes to new depths of understanding of my own tradition, without once having to declare that tradition corrupt or out-moded or mistaken or plain wrong ... whereas when I read Baha'i commentary I find it throttles the possible meaning of Scripture, shuts down insights and draws a veil over horizons ...

I was for many years a lapsed Catholic, and thought of Jesus as a teacher, a troublemaker, a wonderworker – all the New Age ideas – then one simple line from the pen of a Tibetan Buddhist, it was classically a statement of the 'blindingly obvious' that passes without notice until someone makes the point. And then the curtain slipped away, and I saw with fresh eyes.

One could call it an apocalyptic moment, a Damascus moment, an epiphany.

Sadly, when I read your interpretation of Scripture, the reverse is the case. Christ cannot be who I believe Him to be, but who you believe Him to be ... not the Incarnate Logos of God (it's a metaphor), not the Second Person of the Holy Trinity (that's just all wrong), nor the Resurrected Christ (another metaphor); the Holy Spirit is not the Third Person (metaphor again), and the Paraclete is not the Holy Spirit but Baha'u'llah (even though the text would be contradictory is such were the case – and besides, Islam beat you to that one) ...

Saddest of all, I cannot hope for a Participation in the Divine, except at some remove (more metaphors) Theosis is a metaphor, and metaphors are not realities ...

So despite who God is, despite what the Bible says, despite centuries of Christian witness, and despite my own experience .. all this stuff you disallow, and why? Because it has to be all about you.

Take Baha'u'llah out of the equation, and it's a New Age Romance (No doubt Baha'u'llah is King Arthur, too ...)

And everyone must worship like us ... If there was any message for this age, it is one of religious totalitarianism.

 

[Thomas]

Hey – @muhammad_isa, I asked if Mohammed (pbuh), 'visited' Adam ...

Well according to some (?) schools of Islam, he did. I happened upon it quite by chance (providence?) – that Mohammed was the Prophet from the beginning of the world.

So I apologise for my ill-informed remark, and for causing offence, especially at this sacred time for Islam.

Hopefully, you'll forgive me, إِنْ شَاءَ ٱللَّٰهُ!

 

[muhammad_isa]

Hopefully, you'll forgive me, إِنْ شَاءَ ٱللَّٰهُ!

Nothing to forgive

..but I think you asked about angel Gibreel (Gabriel).

 

[wil]

, I am a Christian that does not practice the rituals set by the church.

You ate a bahai that practices the rituals of your "church"....dude, really? Your holier than thou is really getting old and trite (and unfortunately....expected)

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

@Tony Bristow-Stagg
Am interested in your reference for the above^

The above is a key to what is offered below. (What I offered was in translations such as this).

"John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known"

"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; he has seen the Father. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in me has everlasting life. I am the bread of life."
John 6:46-48 nkjv


“If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”

Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
John 14:7-9


All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Come to me, all you who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
Matthew 11:27-30

Note passages such as this, there are many.

"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; he has seen the Father."

I see "Father" is interlaced with "God" just as the "Son" is also interlaced with "God".

I see the Son is the Father and the Father is the Son, just as this is so in this world, a son becomes the Father.

Both the Son and the Father are "Stations", Stations of the Holy Spirit, given of God.

So because both the Son and the Father are now known to us, they have both stated their stations given of God, we can read Matthew 11 in that knowledge.

"All things have been delivered to me by Baha'u'llah (the Glory of God), and no one knows Jesus Christ except Baha'u'llah. Nor does anyone know Baha'u'llah except Jesus Christ, and the one to whom Jesus Christ wills to reveal Him.

Supporting scriptures.

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. – Revelation 21:23

The lamb in this passage could very well be the Bab.

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. – Matthew 16:27

Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. – Mark 8:38

Many such passages can be seen in the light of what Baha'u'llah has offered to the Pope and the Bishops back in thr 1800's.

To the Pope.

"...The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty. Turn your faces towards Him, O concourse of the righteous!......This is the day whereon the Rock (Peter) crieth out and shouteth, and celebrateth the praise of its Lord, the All-Possessing, the Most High, saying: “Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!”

To the Bishops

"...O CONCOURSE of bishops! Trembling hath seized all the kindreds of the earth, and He Who is the Everlasting Father calleth aloud between earth and heaven. Blessed the ear that hath heard, and the eye that hath seen, and the heart that hath turned unto Him Who is the Point of Adoration of all who are in the heavens and all who are on earth..." Baha'u'llah, The Proclamation of Baha'u'llah, p. 93

It appears that Jesus did show Peter and the Disciples who the Father was.

Regards Tony

 

[wil]

Many such passages can be seen in the light of what Baha'u'llah has offered to the Pope and the Bishops back in thr 1800's.

Do you not mean rejected by the popes and bishops as non.christian?

Ooops...is this the bahai corral?

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

OK – show me how it doesn't

As you know, I also see Muhammad as an Annointed One, sharing with Jesus the same Station given of God, One in the Holy Spirit, with Abraham and Moses, to name a few.

Thus the Quran, is also the "Word of God" and Muhammad God's Messenger and Muhammad offered.

"4:171 O People of the Book! Do not go to extremes regarding your faith; say nothing about Allah except the truth.1 The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was no more than a messenger of Allah and the fulfilment of His Word through Mary and a spirit ˹created by a command˺ from Him.2 So believe in Allah and His messengers and do not say, “Trinity.” Stop!—for your own good. Allah is only One God. Glory be to Him! He is far above having a son! To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And Allah is sufficient as a Trustee of Affairs."

Muhammad warned us more than once.

"5:73 Those who say, “Allah is one in a Trinity,” have certainly fallen into disbelief. There is only One God. If they do not stop saying this, those who disbelieve among them will be afflicted with a painful punishment. 5:74 Will they not turn to Allah in repentance and seek His forgiveness?"

Those passages reflect the warnings God always gives us, enabling us to look at the topic in a new way, thinking with new frames of references. The painful punishment, I see is our inability to allow ourselves to trust in God, to move outside the box of traditions and see things in a new light. An example of extreme cases of this are that we still have flat earth protagonists.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

The above is a key to what is offered below. (What I offered was in translations such as this).

"John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known"

Note passages such as this, there are many.

"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; he has seen the Father."

I see "Father" is interlaced with "God" just as the "Son" is also interlaced with "God".

I see the Son is the Father and the Father is the Son, just as this is so in this world, a son becomes the Father.

Both the Son and the Father are "Stations", Stations of the Holy Spirit, given of God.

So because both the Son and the Father are now known to us, they have both stated their stations given of God, we can read Matthew 11 in that knowledge.

"All things have been delivered to me by Baha'u'llah (the Glory of God), and no one knows Jesus Christ except Baha'u'llah. Nor does anyone know Baha'u'llah except Jesus Christ, and the one to whom Jesus Christ wills to reveal Him.

Supporting scriptures.

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. – Revelation 21:23

The lamb in this passage could very well be the Bab.

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. – Matthew 16:27

Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. – Mark 8:38

Many such passages can be seen in the light of what Baha'u'llah has offered to the Pope and the Bishops back in thr 1800's.

To the Pope.

"...The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty. Turn your faces towards Him, O concourse of the righteous!......This is the day whereon the Rock (Peter) crieth out and shouteth, and celebrateth the praise of its Lord, the All-Possessing, the Most High, saying: “Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!”

To the Bishops

"...O CONCOURSE of bishops! Trembling hath seized all the kindreds of the earth, and He Who is the Everlasting Father calleth aloud between earth and heaven. Blessed the ear that hath heard, and the eye that hath seen, and the heart that hath turned unto Him Who is the Point of Adoration of all who are in the heavens and all who are on earth..." Baha'u'llah, The Proclamation of Baha'u'llah, p. 93

It appears that Jesus did show Peter and the Disciples who the Father was.

Regards Tony

Right -- so Jesus didn't say this:

No one has seen the Father not even the Son

But Jesus did say this:

“Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
John 14:7-9

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Do you not mean rejected by the popes and bishops as non.christian?

Ooops...is this the bahai corral?

Sorry that wording is not meaningful to me, it makes no sense.

I meant what I offered, it is what Baha'u'llah offered to the Pope and Bishops. How they saw it, or even if they discussed ut, was up to them.

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

Right -- so Jesus didn't say this:

Jesus actually said this:

“If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”

Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
John 14:7-9

My offering was because you see the Father as Always referring to God. It was a summary that needed clarification, which I note you partook of, did you consider the rest of the response?

Regards Tony

 

[Tony Bristow-Stagg]

You ate a bahai that practices the rituals of your "church"....dude, really? Your holier than thou is really getting old and trite (and unfortunately....expected)

Sorry that wording also does not make sense to me. (You ate a Baha'i?)

Holier than thou? That is far from my position in life.

Regards Tony

 

[RJM]

Hey – @muhammad_isa, I asked if Mohammed (pbuh), 'visited' Adam ...

Well according to some (?) schools of Islam, he did. I happened upon it quite by chance (providence?) – that Mohammed was the Prophet from the beginning of the world.

So I apologise for my ill-informed remark, and for causing offence, especially at this sacred time for Islam.

Hopefully, you'll forgive me, إِنْ شَاءَ ٱللَّٰهُ!

Muhammad (pbuh) met Jesus, John the Baptist, Joseph, Idris, Aaron, Moses, and Abraham and Adam, in heaven -- I think?

The Night Journey
There are different accounts of what occurred during the Miʿraj, but most narratives have the same elements: Muhammad ascends into heaven with the angel Gabriel and meets a different prophet at each of the seven levels of heaven; first Adam, then John the Baptist and Jesus, then Joseph, then Idris, then Aaron, then Moses, and lastly Abraham. After Muhammad meets with Abraham, he continues on to meet God without Gabriel.

It poses the problem of how Adam, Moses and Noah were resurrected from the dead for the meeting, because the resurrection of the dead is said to happen (only) on the last day

 

[RJM]

you see the Father as Always referring to God. It was a summary that needed clarification

You think it refers to Baha'u'llah?

Sorry that wording also does not make sense to me. (You ate a Baha'i?)

It's obviously a typo @Tony Bristow-Stagg
-- read 'are' for 'ate'