Aupmanyav
Be your own guru.
IMHO, only charlatans or physiologically impaired will claim of being 'returning Jesus' or being more than that 'a chosen manifestation of Allah'.
on Faith
- Thread starter Thomas
- Start date
But Jesus Christ is in two natures, Divine and human, and as far as I can see, you have no idea of the implication of that.
From the Christian pov, the Jesus of the Baha'i is reductive, it's an exoteric understanding that fails to comprehend the esoteric dimension – so that argument fails to carry any real value.
again, an exoteric view. The life and death of the Bab, from what I have read, does not tick the esoteric boxes, nor did the Bab achieve, by his death, what Jesus achieved by his crucifixion.
Again, an exoteric understanding.
Our vision of unity is not quite so draconian as yours – it was, I'll give you that, bit no longer. God willing, you will come top understand that the UHJ vision of unity is, in effect, spiritual tyranny.
Sorry, just to post the whole of the passage:
“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
My colour emphasis
Christ gives the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not overshadow or 'come upon' the Christ. Jesus is not just another messenger 'anointed' of the Holy Spirit.
There is no Christ 'in the station of the Father'
It's a contradiction in terms ...
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Yes – the descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
Down the ages since, a variety of explanations have been offered as to how the Scripture points outside of itself to another – you're the first to make such a claim, and so far you've failed to answer the contradictions inherent in your claim.
I wonder how you interpret Christ's words in Matthew 19:12 – "... and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven" – would do endorse that counsel and allow castration as a method of prevention of sexual impropriety?
How about: "... it were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and he were cast into the sea." (Mark 9:41, Matthew 18:6, Luke 17:2) – do we allow suicide? Or "And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out," (Mark 9:46, 5:29) – do we endorse such self harm, and the cutting off of hands, etc?
On the other hand, the exhortation to forgive the offender "I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven times" is generous, but hardly conducive to good order in society.
And with regard to the "woman taken in adultery" (John 8) – that puts the law-makers and the law-keepers in a very poor footing. In fact, "Judge not, lest ye be judged" (Matthew 7:1) would seem to require the dismantling of legal systems, including, I might add, the UHJ!
So explain those verses to me, and I will ponder our respective frames of reference.
Two things:
One: This is nothing new.
Two: The Baha'i claim that all Messengers are from the One God. Yet the messages are not the same. The message of Hinduism stands in stark contrast to the message of Buddhism. Judaism says the Messiah has yet to come. Christianity says He has. Islam predicts the coming of the Messiah – Issa, and the Mahdi. The doctrines are different, the dogmas are different ... and there are contradictions.
So either God is unreliable, or the messengers are unreliable, or there are a variety of Gods, each with their own messengers.
How do you resolve this?
Well that seems true in your case.
Wrong.
"The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men."
Nostra Aetate, 1,iii, Pope Paul VI, 1965
I can see how you make this mistake, but really it fails to comprehend the particular nature, mission and Revelation manifest in the Son – clearly Abraham was not Christ and His vocation was different. Nor was Moses another Christ. Nor was Mohammed (pbuh) – none claim Incarnation in the specific sense Christ does (the Avatar of Hinduism is somewhat comparable in principle).
You confuse the mission of the Holy Spirit with the mission of Christ.
That's a rather garbled interpretation of the Baptism of Christ, and to understand it in its proper context, the event has to be seen wiuth and alongside other significant events – Transfiguration, Crucifixion, Resurrection, and Ascension.
Here is the error: The Father is the One, Beyond all and above all, before all forms and beyond all comprehending – if the Father could come, then there would be no need of 'messengers'; to put it in world terms, the King sends a messenger, he does not go himself.
To confuse the messenger with the source of the message is a fundamental metaphysical error – it's a confusion of domain. So Christ can say "I and the Father are one" and moreover "who has seen me has seen the Father' but He does not say "I am the Father" or "I am in the Station of the Father."
The Baha'i claim to such points to the implicit suprematism of its doctrine – all messengers are one, but mine is superior to yours, and all yours will be obliged to bend a knee to me' – it's a dangerous road, Tony, that can only lead to conflict, and one you should examine.
Be a new religion if you must, don't don't make the same mistakes we have.
+++
I could provisionally accept the Bab / Baha'u'llah / Effendi as inspired poets, as mystics of sorts, given to ecstatic visions and hyperbole, but not as deities – I would regard him in the same light as, say, Kahlil Gibran (who was inspired by the Baha'i he met, but never became one).
Were the Baha'i writings more concise, and the metaphysics more rigorous and insightful, I'd say he might stand as a reformer, or even instituting a new branch of Islam, but the writings don't, I think, measure up to the same spiritual quality as an Ibn'Arabi – or rather, the florrid and archaic translations do them little justice.
Well the obvious question is, where is this fulfilment? What tokens? Two World Wars, the decline of religion worldwide, the threat of environmental extinction, the current threat of the collapse of the Middle East into war, the threat of a war with either Russia or China or both ... you speak of an age of unity and prosperity, and yet there is factionalism on the rise everywhere, and the gap between rich and poor grows exponentially wider ... you will tell me 'tomorrow', and I will say go tell it to the birds.
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
To the Nightingales of Paradise, I will indeed, tell it to the birds and in that, put my trust.
"Nightingale of Paradise, you sing of love
Flooding all the world with light
Heedless men hear not your song of life eternal
They’re lost in the dark of the night
Nightingale of Paradise, you sing of joy
Flooding all the world with love
Singing out your song of peace and brotherhood With hope for all from above'
All the best Thomas. Regards Tony
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Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
I see the Christ's have more than two natures.
Humanity have the two nature's the physical nature as inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature as inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is our immortal rational soul.
I see that the Manifestations of God have these two natures, but possess a third one that is unique to Their station. This third nature is the capacity to receive divine revelation and to infallibly transmit it to mankind, the nature of Christ, the Holy Spirit.
".. Know that the Holy Manifestations, though they have the degree of endless perfections, yet, speaking generally, have only three stations. The first station is the physical: the second station is the human, which is that of the rational soul: the third is that of the divine appearance and the heavenly splendor.
The physical station is phenomenal: it is composed of elements, and necessarily everything that is composed is subject to decomposition. It is not possible that a composition should not be disintegrated.
The second is the station of the rational soul, which is the human reality. This also is phenomenal, and the Holy Manifestations share it with all mankind.....
The third station is that of the divine appearance and heavenly splendor; it is the Word of God, the Eternal Bounty, the Holy Spirit. It has neither beginning nor end, for these things are related to the world of contingencies and not to the divine world. For God the end is the same thing as the beginning...(Abdu'l- Bahá, Some Answered Questioned, pp. 151-152).
Regards Tony
That is no answer to @Thomas' post, imo.
He has a valid point .. you quoted:
>>In the "Summons of the Lord of Hosts", in the Tablet to the Pope we read this.
"The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!<<
I suppose you will say that it means everybody is going to become a Bahai ..
.. one day .. one day .. far away..
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
I see the passage supports my comments, but I kept it out as it further supports Baha'u'llah, a position you do not except.
He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.
"...Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.
Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.
— Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, XXXVI
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.
Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.
— Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, XXXVI
Baha'u'llah received what was Jesus and showed it again unto us.
All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
All that is Baha'u'llah's is also Jesus Christ, they are the same Holy Spirit, so together Jesus as the Son, Baha'u'llah as the Father have taken that Spirit and made it known to us.
But remember, to only to those that receive Him.
There is a lot that can be produced as proof of this view, I hold lots back, that is available for all to read at Bahai.org
Regards Tony
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Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
Be fair, Is there any point to a detailed answer? I was showing that even being told where to go, to go tell the birds, there is an answer that can come from the Word of God.
What it means is that history shows that very few will accept a God given Message without momentous events changing the course of history.
We live in an age that these momentous events are becomming part of changing history, an event will happen that will change the direction of all humanity, as God has now given us the Universal Message that has been promissed in all past scriptures.
Every day I post, I do hope that people can view history and come ro terms with the stance they make about the exclusive nature of their faith. Thomas will say Christianity is not exclusive, but history has shown otherwise in practice.
Most likely me posting Herr has naught to do with helping anyone but my own self. Maybe I am learning that this is fruitless practice of faith, hollow words with no deeds.
Regards Tony
No .. that is not what was being discussed.
Well, the same can be said about Islam or Bahai..
..but it is what your faith teaches i.e. that the "coming of Bahai prophet(s)" has brought world peace.
It hasn't !
I hope it does help you..
No .. it might be a sign that evil forces want you stop .. devil(s) don't want
you to learn, or anybody else to learn, about the Divine.
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Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
The obvious reply is why did the Kings, the Rulers, the religious leaders and humanity as a whole not accept the Most Great Peace, One God One Faith?
Baha'u'llah brought the Word of God that contains the Most Great Peace and delivered it to humanity, just a God had given him to do.
This is a snippet of what Baha'u'llah offered to the rulers,
"... Thus We unfold to your eyes that which profiteth you, if ye but perceive. Your people are your treasures. Beware lest your rule violate the commandments of God, and ye deliver your wards to the hands of the robber. By them ye rule, by their means ye subsist, by their aid ye conquer. Yet, how disdainfully ye look upon them! How strange, how very strange!
Now that ye have refused the Most Great Peace, hold ye fast unto this, the Lesser Peace, that haply ye may in some degree better your own condition and that of your dependents.
O rulers of the earth! Be reconciled among yourselves, that ye may need no more armaments save in a measure to safeguard your territories and dominions. Beware lest ye disregard the counsel of the All-Knowing, the Faithful.
Be united, O kings of the earth, for thereby will the tempest of discord be stilled amongst you, and your peoples find rest, if ye be of them that comprehend. Should any one among you take up arms against another, rise ye all against him, for this is naught but manifest justice."
(“Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh”, pp. 253-254)
That was also rejected and is a process that will need to unfold before we can then uild the Most Great Peace.
The question is, why do we still reject a "Most Great Peace" and not even try to build a lesser peace? Every Faith has the spiritual teachings of Love amd fellowship that can acheive these aims.
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
I would predict we would face the same quandary of differing opinions again Thomas, if I offered my view, or if I offerd thoughts on what you asked from Baha'u'llah.
I will need to meditate on this hidden word.
"O SON OF DUST!
The wise are they that speak not unless they obtain a hearing, even as the cup-bearer, who proffereth not his cup till he findeth a seeker, and the lover who crieth not out from the depths of his heart until he gazeth upon the beauty of his beloved. Wherefore sow the seeds of wisdom and knowledge in the pure soil of the heart, and keep them hidden, till the hyacinths of divine wisdom spring from the heart and not from mire and clay."
The Hidden Words of Bahá'u'lláh
Part II--From the Persian
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
When you plant seeds, the flowers and fruit will take months and some years to be produced. The garden of peace was planted by the Message of Baha’u’llah and is being looked after, each day, month and year the world events, which tend that garden, either as manure, or as gardeners, and the fruit will be produced.
Regards Tony
G-d guides whomsoever He wills
It is often our desires that send us astray .. it becomes about what WE want,
rather than what G-d wants.
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
We resolve it by removing the input of men and going back to the pure word as given by God. There is no contradiction when we do that. Any conflicting texts can then be examined as to authentic foundations. Laws and ordances will differ, the core teachings will not.
Which Message of Hinduism are you talking about? I ask that, as using Hinduism in that context opens a can of worms. The term Hinduism was coined to place the large umbrella of beleifs under one hat.
Some may see progression of ethics and morals in current trends. The current trends based on an unbridled liberty, may be the crux of the problem. Laws that appear draconian, may indeed be our true liberty.
Regards Tony
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
We agreeG-d guides whomsoever He wills
It is often our desires that send us astray .. it becomes about what WE want,
rather than what G-d wants.
Regards Tony
So Jesus was speaking to his 12 apostles about Baha'u'llah?
One thing is sure -- that for nearly 2000 years all sorts of folks have been selectively interpreting the words of Jesus to suit their own agenda -- and they have all withered away, while Jesus still stands
I suggest you read the Gospel of John yourself in context, instead of repeating Baha'i tracts
Whatever .. this goes nowhere
Tony Bristow-Stagg
One Planet One People Please
The Words of God are timeless RJM. We will not see the Most Great Peace, but it has been in prophecy for thousands of years has been given to is to embrace.
Most likely this will go nowhere, but by the Glory of God and by the bounty and Grace of Christ, we can discuss these issues without ill intent. There is no evil in Love.
Regards Tony