Homosexuality

I like the way jimmy chai gets his point across. I never thought that he was pointing a finger at anybody - though any homosexual would see a finger directed at him hence the subject. I agree with him on the concept that man was developed to function in a certain manner. Through reason and free will, each individual will believe what they find comfort in and the courageous will stand against that which they believe is designed to stunt the growth of their belief. It's true: those of us who believe in God know that to recieve the full abundance of life we must follow some rules. Some just decide they don't want all of that and do what it is they want to do. Do you go to hell for it? Who is any one of us to judge, really? Do you go through hell for it? Yes, I believe so. Perhaps that is why so many gays and lesbians have to fight so hard to defend themselves. We all have our challenges, don't we? While a homosexual couple is fighting the world to love outside of the closet, a heterosexual couple is fighting their family to be together regardless of the family name.
 
Yes, truthseeker, I have been through hell for it. Waaaaaay back on one of the first pages someone said something like, "I will acknowledge your roommate but not your lover because that is in my FACE." Well, turn it around. What if I said "I will acknowledge your roommate but not your wife because that puts your heterosexuality in my FACE." And what about all the ads which use sex to sell a product, any product? That's being pretty blatant with heterosexuality.

I am not trying to flaunt my sexuality or offend anyone. I just want my sister and my stepfather not to shut me out of their lives. I want not to be threatened with (heterosexual) rape because I "really would enjoy it." I want my (supposed) friends not to break off contact with me. I want the neighbors to smile when we say hello to them and not ignore us because we're two women. I want ministers whom I trusted to show me God's love and compassion, not to tell me that I'm going to hell unless I give up the only person who has ever made me feel like a worthwhile human being. And yes, I want legal recognition for my relationship because if anything ever happens to my partner I will have to stop going to grad school and leave the country I consider my home because she is supporting me during my studies - and if I don't find work here immediately upon graduation I'll have to leave the country anyway - and she can't follow me to my home country. You bet I want to get married.

Believe me, I did not choose to be this way. On the contrary, I prayed every night from the age of 11 to 18, "Please, God, don't let me be gay. Make me be straight." Didn't work. Well, I believe that God loves us, wants what's best for us, and is never cruel. I also believe that prayers are ALWAYS answered - maybe not in the way we want them to be. The answer I got was, I'm stuck being gay, no matter what I do or try to do - including getting engaged to a man.

Several very qualified and articulate people have already deeply discussed the biblical aspect - I would just like to add this quote, specifically regarding the Romans I:26-27 passage.

"The passage in which these verses are imbedded (1:18-31) contains Paul's discussion of why man (he seems to be referring specifically to Gentiles, that is, non-Jews) does not know God or does not live as though God exists....He goes on to say that man who refuses to honor God turns instead to 'images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles (thus God has abandoned them)...to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator" (vss. 23-25). Then follow the verses which concern us: this would-be-autonomous man's refusal to accept his creatureliness by honoring the Creator is exemplified by disorders in the natural relationships of man to woman among them....Both the sensual and the anti-social sins are idolatrous because they indicate exclusive delight and ultimate concern for the creature and for created things: thus the sins themselves become false gods." - Dr. Robert L. Treese, "Homosexuality: A Contemporary View of the Biblical Perspective," in Loving Women/Loving Men: Gay Liberation and the Church, Sally Gearhart and William R. Johnson, eds, San Francisco: Glide Publications, 1974.

I am not certain how the copyright laws pertain to quoting something on the internet, but I did not intend any violation. My point is that how does this preclude a loving, respectful, committed, monogamous homosexual relationship? This bible passage is talking about sex in the sense of idolatry and lust. While there is certainly a sexual component to my relationship with my partner, that is the least important aspect of our relationship - I suspect most healthy heterosexual couples would say the same thing.

Oh, dear - it's difficult for me to argue articulately on this topic because I have such a personal emotional connection to it. I'm just tired of being told I'm damned, or I can't possibly love God, or God can't possibly love me, or I'm trying to hurt people by the way I love. To quote Bill Bryson, "It was an odd sensation to feel so deeply hated by people who hadn't really had a proper chance to acquaint themselves with one's shortcomings."
 
Greetings Scarlet, welcome on the forum and thank you for the post ;)

I can relate to a lot of what you wrote. Especially the praying-not-to-be-gay part.
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Kal
 
Welcome, Scarlet.

That was quite a touching side to homosexuality that made you sound very human. Though I am not homosexual, I am a victim to not being able to help who I love. The love that I have for this person insists that I endure great pain - though I recognize that it is the expectations of the love that I have that causes me pain. It doesn't make me love this person any less. As a matter of fact, it is easier on my heart for me to love even harder in spite of the pain. However, my name is truthseeker. Kind of tells you that I am still growing.

It is this love that I just spoke of that has brought me to the crossroads in search of God. My questions are: If God is love, why do I have to endure such pain? Is this what I have to go through to get to you, O Lord? If I just hush and allow you to lead my heart, will you protect me from those that try to smite me?

It is the trust in God that makes us stronger. This is a test for the world to either shut down that which is evil or to be humbled before a force that is greater than humankind banded together behind sword and shield. The world is still exploring the depth of that force. A priest should tell you to keep praying for greater understanding of that which is greater than sin - Love. Love will bless you and your mate. Love will give you courage in the den of thieves. Love will soften hearts of stone. Love will widen the perspective of tunnel vision. Love will bring new light to the valley of darkness. If you believe that, then you believe God is with you. Doesn't really matter what I think when you believe God is with you as well - so don't ever be afraid of Him. If God's heart is hardened to your lifestyle - then through the love He gives to all mankind His heart shall soon be softened as well. So bold am I to make these statements - with head bowed and knees bent. So be it.

One more thing. It just really bothers me alot that the kids are in the parades and social movements for this cause. We really should keep the kids away from matters of this magnitude and let them watch cartoons or go to Disneyland or read a Dr. Seuss book or something. Certainly, spelling bees and math competitions and bake offs serve them much more hope of being a most productive member of society rather than discussing the freedom of who they could lay down with. They have the rest of their lives for that.
 
Hi Scarlet Pimpernel, and welcome to CR. :)

Thanks for the heartfelt post, too - much appreciated.
 
Thank you for your post, Scarlet P. I hope your future with your partner is a bright one. To echo Joe Jackson, the world has changed, but it's gotta change more.

it's difficult for me to argue articulately on this topic because I have such a personal emotional connection to it
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I'm the same way--well before my daughter came out to me, intolerance for gays/lesbians was a hot-button issue for me. I've learned to control my temper, for the most part, because for most people, a gentle affirmation of the rights and feelings of gays will at least shut them up, if not make them ashamed to have expressed what for many of them is a societally conditioned response.
The closeminded, and you can tell quite quickly who they are, aren't gonna be convinced anyway, so them I walk away from.

As for involving children in human rights issues, truthseeker, I must respectfully, if strongly, disagree. I undertand where you come from on this, and your desire to protect children from harm.
But I feel that issues of human rights and social justice must be part of the moral, ethical and spiritual education that a child can only receive at home. The media, and society at large, is filled with drastically mixed messages, and respect for all humanity needs to be reinforced from an early age.
Children naturally are without hatred and prejudice, but unfortunately there are plenty of people waiting to turn that innocent attitude around for their own social, religious or political agendas.

the freedom of who they could lay down with
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The issues are a lot bigger than that, imo--it's the freedom to be who they were born to be, straight, gay, black, white, Muslim, Jewish, whatever--
 
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BluejayWay said:
...The media, and society at large, is filled with drastically mixed messages, and respect for all humanity needs to be reinforced from an early age.
Children naturally are without hatred and prejudice, but unfortunately there are plenty of people waiting to turn that innocent attitude around for their own social, religious or political agendas.

The issues are a lot bigger than that, imo--it's the freedom to be who they were born to be, straight, gay, black, white, Muslim, Jewish, whatever--
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Let's teach the children to be confident in their abilities and so they can be courageous enough to stand for what they believe in and humble enough to agree to disagree. Rated R movies can relate to real-life issues but we need not take the children to view these movies so they can understand a side of life that they may eventually come to be aware of in time. I'm talking about preservation of innocence. A child who grows up in a home of same-sex parents already understands something that the other kids don't know about people who love eachother regardless of gender. Let's teach that child to be confident in his abilities so that the stings of close-minded people doesn't leave a permanent mark. Let's love and talk to the children instead of catapulting them into situations that exposes them to all the issues instead of the single dose that is needed for that time. They will have questions - patience is a virtue. That child may grow up with the patience to help the closed mind to respect values outside of his own. Just like you are saying, Bluejay, people use children to further thier cause - which is not always in good timing. I would use a child of mine to further the cause of reading books. But I would not use a child of mine to further the cause of reading books about condoms. I'm talking about children, not teenagers and young adults. The children will understand all these things in time.
 
What you say is readily applicable to most causes, truthseeker. Pro-life, pro-choice, pro-war, anti-war, you name it, children are often brought to protests/rallies on both sides of virtually any issue. While it does teach them to stand up for the values they believe in, it does, as you say, destroy some of the innocence early. Then again, children are often placed in the middle of unfortunate situations (ask almost any divorced parent, for example).
 
Just like you are saying, Bluejay, people use children to further thier cause
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Just as 'one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter'--I take your point. Adults need to examine their motives very carefully before involving children in public debate--thank you for your response, truthseeker. We can agree to agree on this :)
 
personally i see nothing wrong with it because other animals do this aswell. We are lead to believe that we are a superior breed of beast but just because we have a few more brain cells doesn't make us better.

It could also be said that we can't choose who we fall in love with be it a man or a woman does it matter? It doesn't affect anyone else so why should you care what happens behind closed doors?
 
Geist said:
It could also be said that we can't choose who we fall in love with be it a man or a woman does it matter? It doesn't affect anyone else so why should you care what happens behind closed doors?
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True, what happens behind closed doors doesn't affect anyone else. What happens in general public should be tastefully done in consideration of how it affects someone else. People holding hands and showing affection to one another should not be a problem. Whether they are homo or heterosexual.

personally i see nothing wrong with it because other animals do this aswell. We are lead to believe that we are a superior breed of beast but just because we have a few more brain cells doesn't make us better.
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We are a superior breed of beast. The animal kingdom is not participating in this conversation - that gives some evidence that we are superior in quite a few ways. Animals don't explore love through sexual activity.
 
i agree with you guys. I live in a very Conservative town. There is constant "spiritual fascism" among adults and even students. What disturbs me most about this belief in ones superiority is that most of them do not understand the teachings of Jesus on any basic level. These Christians tend to look past the words of Jesus(or twist them), and focus on the Old Testament. For example, my towns big obsession is putting a stop to homosexuality or as they call it,"those damn queers". Bible Studies often focus on the subject, with members spending hours digging through the Holy Texts looking for anything to deal with the subject. I have never taken part in this practice, and for good reason. When Christians, or any religious group, digs to deep into the text, the group or individual loses the basic concepts like "loving one's neighbor. It seems like many Christians find it less desirable to be Christlike, and emulate instead the Pharisees which Jesus took issue with. Overall, Christians in my town "know" that Homosexuality is "wrong"(a belief I do not share), yet still are ignorant to the basics.

Why are homosexuals denied the right to worship Christ while other sinners are welcomed with open arms? My point is, there should be no one turned away from Christ. Nor anyone forced to go towards Christ.-Death By Coleslaw
 
truthseeker said:
We are a superior breed of beast. The animal kingdom is not participating in this conversation - that gives some evidence that we are superior in quite a few ways. Animals don't explore love through sexual activity.
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Love is a human concept. We made it up all it really is, is base instinct the will in us to reproduce to keep our genetics alive. WE think we experiance love when in actual fact your partner has similar features to your own you bodies are telling you who to find attractive through how similar your features are.

Its like comitment humans are not built to have one partner thats something that poped into existance through relgion so I believe that you are incorrect.

As for Death by Coleslaw's contribution don't worry so much about it. Its the same where I live people look so deeply into something they lose track of whats important.
 
Geist said:
Its like comitment humans are not built to have one partner thats something that poped into existance through relgion so I believe that you are incorrect.
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Greetings Geist.

This may be off-topic but I'll ask anyway : If commitment is a religious creation, why do some animals also choose life partners?
___
Kal
 
Kaldayen said:
Greetings Geist.

This may be off-topic but I'll ask anyway : If commitment is a religious creation, why do some animals also choose life partners?
___
Kal
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I could ask why do people decide to have affaires(SP?)
 
Geist said:
Love is a human concept. We made it up all it really is, is base instinct the will in us to reproduce to keep our genetics alive. WE think we experiance love when in actual fact your partner has similar features to your own you bodies are telling you who to find attractive through how similar your features are.

Its like comitment humans are not built to have one partner thats something that poped into existance through relgion so I believe that you are incorrect.
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And it's alright to be human. You know, to be in touch with who you are, anyway.
You sound like the anthropology classes that I've taken. Base instinct - it's cool to understand where we've come from. However, humankind is progressive. That is part of the arguments with homosexuality. Some think that it is part of an evolution. So be it. But equating the thinking of homosexuality with animalism doesn't help further the cause.
 
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