path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
Amen to that.Paladin said:
K
Knowledge
Guest
Someone asked if I ever talked with a gay person. Well to answer, yes I have. Again, no one is born gay, it is a choice. For anyone trapped in the gay lifestyle, Jesus can deliever you, if you want. Confess your sins, repent, and trust in him. Do this, and he'll change you. What's more, you'll have eternal life!
bgruagach
eclectic Wiccan
Knowledge said:
It really doesn't matter if homosexuality is chosen or inborn.
We are not supposed to treat others unfairly because of inborn traits like their skin colour, the colour of their eyes, or their ethnicity.
We are not supposed to treat others unfairly because of chosen traits like religion. People can always convert, after all.
If you don't like homosexuals then there's not much anyone can do about it -- but when people start talking about expecting laws to uphold inequality based on arbitrary prejudices that are not universally supported by all religions, then I have a problem. Christians alone can't agree on whether homosexuals should be treated as equal to heterosexuals or not, so why should we pretend that antipathy towards homosexuals is universal?
K
Knowledge
Guest
Hey Ben,
I gotta be honest guy, I couldnt even finish reading what you wrote because it sounds like your judging me. And, doing so very wrongly I should add. In any case, I want to let you know something about me. Pay attention! I do not hate anyone, including gay people. I assure you, if I did, I would be totally confused in who Jesus is. You see, if I hate another man; for whatever reason, and say I love God, I would be a liar! There's no beating around the bush on that one man - thats just it! What I was saying however, is that the homosexual living is not excepted by God. And, like every other kind of sinner, the homosexual can find forgiveness and a new life, with new desiers with Jesus.
Later,
Knowledge
I gotta be honest guy, I couldnt even finish reading what you wrote because it sounds like your judging me. And, doing so very wrongly I should add. In any case, I want to let you know something about me. Pay attention! I do not hate anyone, including gay people. I assure you, if I did, I would be totally confused in who Jesus is. You see, if I hate another man; for whatever reason, and say I love God, I would be a liar! There's no beating around the bush on that one man - thats just it! What I was saying however, is that the homosexual living is not excepted by God. And, like every other kind of sinner, the homosexual can find forgiveness and a new life, with new desiers with Jesus.
Later,
Knowledge
bgruagach
eclectic Wiccan
Knowledge said:
My post wasn't that long.
Every book we have, including the Bible, was written by fallible humans. There are MANY scriptures that people claim are inspired by the Divine. They do not all agree that homosexuality is "not accepted by God." So telling me that God doesn't accept homosexuality doesn't convince me.
God made lots of homosexual animals -- and has made homosexual humans throughout all of human existence. Personally, I don't think God makes junk. I think this idea that God made a mistake is a human idea being attributed to God because it makes some people feel better.
K
Knowledge
Guest
My post wasn't that long.
I agree!
Every book we have, including the Bible, was written by fallible humans.
Im gonna have to disagree there. The Bible is written by God, and it is the ONLY holy book to prove that! The 66 books of the Bible, penned by 40 different people prove super natural in origin, in that they are written from outside our time domine. Also, look at the Scriptures' abilites to change lives, its 100% prophecies, its scientific and archeological finds, and its historial facts. These all prove the Bible's claims!
There are MANY scriptures that people claim are inspired by the Divine.
Im not interested in claim. I am, however, interested in proof!
They do not all agree that homosexuality is "not accepted by God." So telling me that God doesn't accept homosexuality doesn't convince me.
Good! My job isnt to convince you, but to just tell you the truth. It is God's job to convince you. And, he will if you seek!
God made lots of homosexual animals -- and has made homosexual humans throughout all of human existence. Personally, I don't think God makes junk. I think this idea that God made a mistake is a human idea being attributed to God because it makes some people feel better.
There are so many ideas going around about God, who he is, and what he says. Yet, since none of us was there with him when he created anything, I dont think none of us can say who or what he truely is. It is because of this fact, that God left behind a instruction manual for us. Today that manual is known as his love letter - the Bible. Dont believe what you hear about it, read and study it for yourself!
--Knowledge
I agree!
Every book we have, including the Bible, was written by fallible humans.
Im gonna have to disagree there. The Bible is written by God, and it is the ONLY holy book to prove that! The 66 books of the Bible, penned by 40 different people prove super natural in origin, in that they are written from outside our time domine. Also, look at the Scriptures' abilites to change lives, its 100% prophecies, its scientific and archeological finds, and its historial facts. These all prove the Bible's claims!
There are MANY scriptures that people claim are inspired by the Divine.
Im not interested in claim. I am, however, interested in proof!
They do not all agree that homosexuality is "not accepted by God." So telling me that God doesn't accept homosexuality doesn't convince me.
Good! My job isnt to convince you, but to just tell you the truth. It is God's job to convince you. And, he will if you seek!
God made lots of homosexual animals -- and has made homosexual humans throughout all of human existence. Personally, I don't think God makes junk. I think this idea that God made a mistake is a human idea being attributed to God because it makes some people feel better.
There are so many ideas going around about God, who he is, and what he says. Yet, since none of us was there with him when he created anything, I dont think none of us can say who or what he truely is. It is because of this fact, that God left behind a instruction manual for us. Today that manual is known as his love letter - the Bible. Dont believe what you hear about it, read and study it for yourself!
--Knowledge
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
I actually do read and study it for myself, and I'm with bgruagach on this one. You can judge my beliefs and tell me I'm wrong, but you can't tell me I'm not reading and studying the same scriptures, or that I'm not doing it wholeheartedly. Believe it or not, there are lots of Christians all reading the same Bible and they don't all have the same interpretations.
I'm also an anthropologist, and history/archaeology do not "prove" the Bible. They support that there was a Jewish religion and people, that these times and places existed, and that some events happened. They cannot prove the essential tenets of many people's faith- that the Bible is infallible, that all the miracles happened, that Jesus was resurrected. That's why it's a faith and not a science. The Bible isn't proven, it's taken on faith. All religions operate this way, or science would have discovered God and the Absolute Truth by now.
So it does get back to the Bible being one of many sacred texts in the world. One can, in faith, decide the Bible is the literal and infallible Word of God, that it is a useful and informative text that chronicles some very real people's experience of and attempt to understand the Divine, or that it is all a load of horse manure. But none of these beliefs have been proven, and all the many archaeologists and historians I know would agree with that.
I'm also an anthropologist, and history/archaeology do not "prove" the Bible. They support that there was a Jewish religion and people, that these times and places existed, and that some events happened. They cannot prove the essential tenets of many people's faith- that the Bible is infallible, that all the miracles happened, that Jesus was resurrected. That's why it's a faith and not a science. The Bible isn't proven, it's taken on faith. All religions operate this way, or science would have discovered God and the Absolute Truth by now.
So it does get back to the Bible being one of many sacred texts in the world. One can, in faith, decide the Bible is the literal and infallible Word of God, that it is a useful and informative text that chronicles some very real people's experience of and attempt to understand the Divine, or that it is all a load of horse manure. But none of these beliefs have been proven, and all the many archaeologists and historians I know would agree with that.
BluejayWay
More evidence? Thank you!
Interesting statement, in light of the fact that there are many gay Christians--active, faithful members of God's church--who somehow remain gay.
K
Knowledge
Guest
If they chose to remain gay, then they chose to stay in sin and therefore choose to make themselves an enemy to God. Yet, in their thinking, they've somehow disregurded the true God, to make up a god that is more easier to except and follow. You know, a more tolerant, loving god. This by the way, is called idolotry, and another sin against the true God. So, in doing all of this, the gay person is breaking 2 of God's Laws:
1. Idolotry
2.Homosexuality
Here's 2 scritpures that may speak to your heart:
1."For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist,
fulfill your ministry." (2 Tim. 4:3-5)
2.Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."
Those 2 scriptures talk about people in the endtimes following their own lust because the truth is just a little to hard to swallow.
Later,
Knowledge
1. Idolotry
2.Homosexuality
Here's 2 scritpures that may speak to your heart:
1."For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist,
fulfill your ministry." (2 Tim. 4:3-5)
2.Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."
Those 2 scriptures talk about people in the endtimes following their own lust because the truth is just a little to hard to swallow.
Later,
Knowledge
Paladin
Purchased Bewilderment
So was it this scripture that inspired you to choose to be heterosexual?
K
Knowledge
Guest
I actually do read and study it for myself, and I'm with bgruagach on this one. You can judge my beliefs and tell me I'm wrong, but you can't tell me I'm not reading and studying the same scriptures, or that I'm not doing it wholeheartedly. Believe it or not, there are lots of Christians all reading the same Bible and they don't all have the same interpretations.
Sorry you must have misuderstood me. I didnt judge you, nor am I even now. What I do saw however, is if you're not truely born again, you do not understand the scripture, dispite what you may think. Have you ever repented from your sins, made Jesus the Lord and Savior of your life (trust in him insomuch it forces a change)?
I'm also an anthropologist, and history/archaeology do not "prove" the Bible.
Great for you! But sorry, you're wrong. There are many instances where archaeology and history prove the Bible. In fact, the truth of this is pretty much public consensus. Check it out for yourself.
They support that there was a Jewish religion and people, that these times and places existed, and that some events happened. They cannot prove the essential tenets of many people's faith- that the Bible is infallible, that all the miracles happened, that Jesus was resurrected.
Actually I wasnt talking about proving faith. No one but God can prove himself.
All religions operate this way, or science would have discovered God and the Absolute Truth by now.
LOL! I guess you have a point there guy. As the scripture says, "it is impossible to please God without faith." So, if you dont trust God at his word, you call him a liar, and thereby stick to your own understanding. I dont think that to be wise. But, thats just me.
So it does get back to the Bible being one of many sacred texts in the world.
Like I said before. The Bible has the abality to change lives in that people are willing to die to preach the truth. They dont even try to fight back, they go as lambs to the slaugher. You probably think these people are nuts? Also, the Bible has a 100% prophecy record. Also, there are SO MANY scientic break throughs that were all along in the Bible. Also, there is the amazing Bible Code phenom that proves super natural origin. All these prove the Bible to be the word of God!
One can, in faith, decide the Bible is the literal and infallible Word of God, that it is a useful and informative text that chronicles some very real people's experience of and attempt to understand the Divine, or that it is all a load of horse manure. But none of these beliefs have been proven, and all the many archaeologists and historians I know would agree with that.
For us to know God we must first have faith -- trust in his Son, and what he has done for us. Do that, the Bible says, and we will be born again. We will understand God, and his words in scripture. You know its funny, God has taken the foolish things of the world to confound the things of the wise. Do you think faith is foolish?
Sorry you must have misuderstood me. I didnt judge you, nor am I even now. What I do saw however, is if you're not truely born again, you do not understand the scripture, dispite what you may think. Have you ever repented from your sins, made Jesus the Lord and Savior of your life (trust in him insomuch it forces a change)?
I'm also an anthropologist, and history/archaeology do not "prove" the Bible.
Great for you! But sorry, you're wrong. There are many instances where archaeology and history prove the Bible. In fact, the truth of this is pretty much public consensus. Check it out for yourself.
They support that there was a Jewish religion and people, that these times and places existed, and that some events happened. They cannot prove the essential tenets of many people's faith- that the Bible is infallible, that all the miracles happened, that Jesus was resurrected.
Actually I wasnt talking about proving faith. No one but God can prove himself.
All religions operate this way, or science would have discovered God and the Absolute Truth by now.
LOL! I guess you have a point there guy. As the scripture says, "it is impossible to please God without faith." So, if you dont trust God at his word, you call him a liar, and thereby stick to your own understanding. I dont think that to be wise. But, thats just me.
So it does get back to the Bible being one of many sacred texts in the world.
Like I said before. The Bible has the abality to change lives in that people are willing to die to preach the truth. They dont even try to fight back, they go as lambs to the slaugher. You probably think these people are nuts? Also, the Bible has a 100% prophecy record. Also, there are SO MANY scientic break throughs that were all along in the Bible. Also, there is the amazing Bible Code phenom that proves super natural origin. All these prove the Bible to be the word of God!
One can, in faith, decide the Bible is the literal and infallible Word of God, that it is a useful and informative text that chronicles some very real people's experience of and attempt to understand the Divine, or that it is all a load of horse manure. But none of these beliefs have been proven, and all the many archaeologists and historians I know would agree with that.
For us to know God we must first have faith -- trust in his Son, and what he has done for us. Do that, the Bible says, and we will be born again. We will understand God, and his words in scripture. You know its funny, God has taken the foolish things of the world to confound the things of the wise. Do you think faith is foolish?
K
Knowledge
Guest
"So was it this scripture that inspired you to choose to be heterosexual?"
LOL! No, sorry thats not it. I was actually created to like chicks. Im sure you heard the saying, "opposites attract."
LOL! No, sorry thats not it. I was actually created to like chicks. Im sure you heard the saying, "opposites attract."
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
Knowledge said:
Right, because I don't agree with you, you somehow know that I am not "truly born again." Sorry, but I've heard that before, and I refuse to commit blasphemy against my God, who has time and again graced me with insight into the Word through the Holy Spirit, by ignoring the insight I have gained and caving in to what other people tell me I should believe. I don't feel that you are right, but I am not saying that you are not born again. I am offended at your implication that I am not, simply because we disagree.
Yes. And I stand by my experience of Christ, God, and the Holy Spirit in my beliefs. I stand by the interpretation of the scripture that I have gained through years of prayer and meditation on the Word, as well as study. If others have alternate interpretations, I am not worried about it. That is their own path. I trust the guidance of God above the interpretations of others.
As I said:
They support that there was a Jewish religion and people, that these times and places existed, and that some events happened. They cannot prove the essential tenets of many people's faith- that the Bible is infallible, that all the miracles happened, that Jesus was resurrected.
They prove PARTS of the Bible. SOME of the historical parts. They do not prove the infallibility of the religious parts (or even the infallibility of the historical parts). My point is that the Bible is still a sacred text to be taken on faith.
As a scientist, there is a difference between proving that a culture, time period, and religion existed, or that a historical event existed, and proving that a religious text is accurate and infallible in its entirety. You can tell me I'm wrong, but I do this for a living, so I would say that I probably have some insight into how the science of archaeology works and the general consensus of people in that field.
No, I don't think they're nuts. I don't think other people who die for other religious beliefs are nuts either. People of every faith have been willling to die for their faith. Christians aren't the only ones who have been martyred.
1. Care to give evidence that the prophecy record has been 100%? As I see it, there's a lot of prophecy that has yet to occur, so we're still waiting to see how that all comes out.
2. All religions contain scientific breakthroughs. The Ancient Maya religion had figured out astronomy and great arts of medicine. The Ancient Inca performed *successful* brain surgeries. The Chinese philosophies about chi resulted in a complex and very useful medical system. Druids also had a complex system that mingled science and religion. My point- all indigenous/traditional/ancient religions were partly science. It is a recent phenomenon in our culture that separates the two. In traditional societies, science and religion were entwined because they both tried to provide explanatory models of the world for people and improve people's lives.
3. The Bible Code is hotly contested, including by Christians. All I know is that it did not hold up under scientific scrutiny. If you take *any* text of that length you can find similar patterns, even in texts that are not religious. Statisticians proved that such patterns are inherent in lengthy literature, which I still think is interesting on its own. If you choose to believe in it, fine, but I don't need signs from the Bible. It contains wisdom, and that's enough for me.
Actually, I do trust in Christ personally. However, the Bible also says that we can know God because the knowledge of Him is already within us, even if we do not know the Gospel of Christ (Romans 1:19). The Bible also says that we can know God through His handiworks, the Creation (Romans 1:20).
Absolutely not. That was my point. It is foolish to me, to try to prove the infallibility of the Bible, because the point is not to "prove the Bible" but to take the Bible on faith if that is your path. Far from faith being foolish, it is the cornerstone of my path. I have faith in my direct experience of God, and in the insights I feel I've gained through divine grace. Without faith, my path would not exist. As a mystic, I must have faith in order to experience God, to gain intuitive understanding. Without the trust that God is there, just waiting for us to embrace Him, for me it would be meaningless.
That said, I think this is beginning to go off on a theological tanget that is not directly relevant to the thread, so I'm going to end my response there. If you'd like to continue the discussion, we could start a new thread on that stuff. I was just trying to display the wide variety of opinions on this topic, even between people using the same scriptural basis. And now back to the issue...
BluejayWay
More evidence? Thank you!
You choose to judge others, and object to others judging you? I feel people are on dangerous ground when they establish themselves as an authority on who is a true believer and who isn't.
Worshiping a written text--Biblical literalism--smacks of idolatry as well. Discernment is one of the gifts of the Spirit, as I recall, which does justify an intelligent, informed reading of Scripture.
...And don't get me started on the Apostle Paul
--But, back on topic, I've seen you present no evidence for your claim that homosexuals chose to be so--just your assertion of fact. And, yes, I'm with Ben on this too--this is your opinion, and you have your right to it, but if you are not able to present one argument against the various points several people here have raised in opposition to your claim, you have no right to demand that others believe this opinion as well.
And if it's all opinion, I'm going to be more inclined to believe a gay person's opinion about himself than I am a homophobe's opinion of that person.
A gay person is a better judge of what has made him thus than you are, I'm afraid--or a better judge than I am. I'll take his word for it, as I'll take your word for it that you were born straight.
kiwimac
God is NOT about Fear
Interestingly enough the Scripture in Jude 1:7 which talks about "strange flesh" (referring to Sodom et al) is in the Greek " Heteros Sarkos", from which we get "Heterosexual." Regardless of how you, knowledge, feel about Homosexuals, they are still people made in God's image and likeness.
I would offer you the following, the Bible does not talk about Homosexuality as we understand it today but rather Caananite fertility rituals and, arguably, Greco-Roman pederasty. Indeed, Jesus never talks about homosexuality and rarely about Sodom and Gomorrah and then ALWAYS in terms of inhospitality rather than sexual sin.
Kiwimac
I would offer you the following, the Bible does not talk about Homosexuality as we understand it today but rather Caananite fertility rituals and, arguably, Greco-Roman pederasty. Indeed, Jesus never talks about homosexuality and rarely about Sodom and Gomorrah and then ALWAYS in terms of inhospitality rather than sexual sin.
Kiwimac
Paladin
Purchased Bewilderment
Knowledge said:
So people are created with a sexual preference? Hmmm
bgruagach
eclectic Wiccan
I thought I'd add in an interesting link that I got in my email this morning.
Just to give it some context: I'm a Canadian, and in Canada the majority (85%) of our citizens live in provinces or territories that explicitly permit same-sex marriage. Our federal government is finally getting around to changing the laws at their level which will establish same-sex marriages as legal for the whole country. Marriage from a legal standpoint in Canada recognizes same-sex and opposite-sex marriages as equivalent although currently you can only get married as a same-sex couple in over half of the provinces and territories.
Anyways, the article at this site reports that rallies are being held in cities across Canada for this coming weekend (April 9th and 10th) in support of legal same-sex marriage. There are a wide range of explicitly religious groups who are participating in the rallies including Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, Quakers, Sikhs, and Unitarians.
The proposed Canadian laws will make same-sex marriage legal across the country but affirm that religious groups are free to celebrate and/or officiate for them, or not, according to their own standards. Religious groups already have this freedom with regard to whether to perform marriages for people outside their faith communities or for people who are divorced, so affirming this for same-sex marriages is not really anything new.
So I guess it just goes to show that despite the visible anti-gay bias demonstrated by some, there are also those within most religious communities who do not have a problem with homosexuality -- and they are willing to stand up and be counted on this issue.
Just to give it some context: I'm a Canadian, and in Canada the majority (85%) of our citizens live in provinces or territories that explicitly permit same-sex marriage. Our federal government is finally getting around to changing the laws at their level which will establish same-sex marriages as legal for the whole country. Marriage from a legal standpoint in Canada recognizes same-sex and opposite-sex marriages as equivalent although currently you can only get married as a same-sex couple in over half of the provinces and territories.
Anyways, the article at this site reports that rallies are being held in cities across Canada for this coming weekend (April 9th and 10th) in support of legal same-sex marriage. There are a wide range of explicitly religious groups who are participating in the rallies including Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, Quakers, Sikhs, and Unitarians.
The proposed Canadian laws will make same-sex marriage legal across the country but affirm that religious groups are free to celebrate and/or officiate for them, or not, according to their own standards. Religious groups already have this freedom with regard to whether to perform marriages for people outside their faith communities or for people who are divorced, so affirming this for same-sex marriages is not really anything new.
So I guess it just goes to show that despite the visible anti-gay bias demonstrated by some, there are also those within most religious communities who do not have a problem with homosexuality -- and they are willing to stand up and be counted on this issue.
kiwimac
God is NOT about Fear
Here in NZ we have recently passed civil-union legislation which allows for same-sex unions. A step in the right direction.
Kiwimac
Kiwimac
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
I am not responding to the points that you have put down, Knowledge. As I said, our discussion is drifting off-topic and if you want to continue it, we'll have to open another thread.
All I will say is, I am not worried what you think. I am not worried about what any human thinks about my spiritual path. My path is between me and God. And it is not "some being" who is guiding me. It is God. I am not denying that you know God, even though I disagree with much of what you say. Don't deny that I know God. It is not for you to judge or know.
I don't decide if I am with God based on blessings. Just to be alive is a blessing. Just to be on this beautiful earth is a blessing. Just to have spirituality is a blessing. There is no greater gift I can receive in life that the fact that I'm alive and that God loves me, and that I get to live in the midst of God's creation. The rest of life... whether pain and loss (and I've been there) or opportunity and love (been there too)... it is all a part of this wonderful life, and all of it is a blessing. Yes, even the pain. Even the grief. Even the suffering. It has made me who I am, and it causes me to lean more on God. There are spiritual lessons in all of life, even when life seems difficult. Whether one considers it a blessing or a curse depends only on one's perspective.
All I will say is, I am not worried what you think. I am not worried about what any human thinks about my spiritual path. My path is between me and God. And it is not "some being" who is guiding me. It is God. I am not denying that you know God, even though I disagree with much of what you say. Don't deny that I know God. It is not for you to judge or know.
I don't decide if I am with God based on blessings. Just to be alive is a blessing. Just to be on this beautiful earth is a blessing. Just to have spirituality is a blessing. There is no greater gift I can receive in life that the fact that I'm alive and that God loves me, and that I get to live in the midst of God's creation. The rest of life... whether pain and loss (and I've been there) or opportunity and love (been there too)... it is all a part of this wonderful life, and all of it is a blessing. Yes, even the pain. Even the grief. Even the suffering. It has made me who I am, and it causes me to lean more on God. There are spiritual lessons in all of life, even when life seems difficult. Whether one considers it a blessing or a curse depends only on one's perspective.
You don't find Christ and choose not to be Homosexual. You get brainwashed by relgion to not be homosexual. To be relgious is fine but what people forget is that there are so many belifes in this world that you need to be open minded and not force your ways on others which in my eyes is precisly what Christianity does.Knowledge said:
The only reason there is a bible is to give you a guideline on how to live a good life whether you choose to follow is your choice. Somethings you may agree with others you may not homosexuality is one of these things.