Ignoring Vaccines

[wil]

Yet the outbreak isn't very big at all. The local government already has it in hand.

Measles cases linked to Texas outbreak grows to 259, with just 2 among fully vaccinated people

The number of measles cases associated with an outbreak in western Texas has grown to 259, according to new data released Friday.

abcnews.go.com

The cases rise....and yes even vaccinated people are getting it....well..2 of them...out of the 259 new cases.

Risk? I'll take the jab and listen to science.

Yes because I care about my fellow man...this non believer does the "christian" thing...

 

[Faithfulservant]

Yes because I care about my fellow man...this non believer does the "christian" thing...

Was that necessary?

 

[wil]

Was that necessary?

I truly wish it wasn't!

 

[iBrian]

Risk? I'll take the jab and listen to science.

Unfortunately, with the Pfizer covid vaccine there was very little science. According to an EU inquiry, there were adverse reactions in the original Pfizer trials, but these were removed to ensure the results looked good enough to sell to governments. And let's face it, Pfizer originally claimed very high protection rates against both getting covid and also spreading it - both of which eventually proved to be false. However, that didn't prevent the mass censorship through media and social media of any view that wen against Pfizer's original claims. It took a couple of years before the BBC - which had been actively crusading against any criticism of the Pfizer vaccine - finally, and quietly, mentioned that it neither stopped a person from catching covid nor from spreading it - at best it could reduce the severity of covid symptoms.

Also, in an earlier post you asked about deaths from the covid vaccine - unfortunately, there was an outright refusal to recognize vaccine injury as a possibility of either adverse reaction resulting in ill health, or even death, from the Pfizer vaccine. I can't remember whether (in the UK at least) it was mandated by the government that this should be case, or whether it was the medical profession itself. Therefore actual recorded deaths from the covid vaccine, so far as I understand it, were filed by a few medical professionals who refused to tow the line, at risk of their professional reputations, on the grounds that they saw there was something wrong in the whole approach. Most vaccine injuries and deaths caused by the Pfizer vaccine were never medically recognized as being caused by it, not due to lack of evidence, but through refusal to accept it on an organizational level.

I am very pro vaccine, and very pro science - but the covid vaccine was neither a vaccine, nor was it rolled on on actual scientific evidence. IMO the whole covid vaccine fiasco will one day be looked back upon as one of the darkest moments in Western democracy.

And now the deeply flawed rollout of the Pfizer vaccine is having an exaggerated knock-on effect on other vaccines which do have a long history of being generally safe, which is possibly the saddest part.

 

[wil]

Me thinks we will disagree...

Pfizer Lawsuit and Debunked Study Undermine COVID-19 Vaccine Recommendations — The Monitor | KFF

In this Monitor, we explore how ongoing misinformation about the safety and efficacy of COVID-19 vaccines may affect the acceptance of new vaccine recommendations. First, we examine the false and misleading claims underlying the Kansas Attorney General’s lawsuit against Pfizer. We also discuss...

www.kff.org

E.U. Court Rebukes Bloc’s Executive Arm Over Covid Vaccine Contract Secrecy

The court ruled that the European Commission wrongly withheld information, casting a shadow on its leader, Ursula von der Leyen, before a crucial vote on her future.

www.nytimes.com

I would be interested in your science that mRNA vaccines aren't vaccines.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more


noun
1.
a substance used to stimulate immunity to a particular infectious disease or pathogen, typically prepared from an inactivated or weakened form of the causative agent or from its constituents or products.

There is no Corona virus in the jab. It's not a vaccine by definition

 

[iBrian]

I would be interested in your science that mRNA vaccines aren't vaccines.

From a layman's perspective, the purpose of a vaccine is to prevent either someone from catching a specific infection or from spreading it. If the Pfizer vaccine does neither, then can it really be called a vaccine as opposed to an experimental medical procedure?

Btw, the position I'm coming from is that I was officially diagnosed with CFS in Dec 2020 (after being proscribed something I didn't need, that I was already known to react to). In order to better understand the condition, my wife did some searching online at the time and found accounts from people who had developed CFS after getting the Pfizer covid vaccine. However, those sources, often YouTube videos, were quickly deleted and some of the YouTubers said they'd been told their accounts would be deleted if they continued to say they'd got CFS from the vaccine.

So she kept following the topic - even videos US and UK politicians talking about vaccine damage in congress or Parliament were removed by YouTube to enforce censorship of criticism.

I also joined a few FaceBook CFS groups and found people there also reporting their symptoms had begun after getting the vaccine, or booster, but admins had to regulate those posts after FaceBook threatened deletion for making such claims.

If the idea that the vaccine caused harm was nothing more than a conspiracy, it was the most incredibly organised and extensive one I've ever seen. The idea that such claims were borne of ignorance just don't wash. I was there - we were there, we saw it happening as it was happening. We saw people trying to say they'd become ill after the Pfizer vaccine, and then them immediately silenced if they tried to maintain that position.

Sorry, can't access your NYT link, though not sure what the first is trying to say. It seems to come from the position that the medical profession thinks there's nothing wrong with the Pfizer vaccine, because there's no contrary evidence - but if there was a refusal to collect evidence in the first place how does that reflect the argument? After all, I seem to recall North Korea officially counted no covid deaths at all at one point during the pandemic (I think Japan did the same, too).

 

[Faithfulservant]

From a layman's perspective, the purpose of a vaccine is to prevent either someone from catching a specific infection or from spreading it. If the Pfizer vaccine does neither, then can it really be called a vaccine as opposed to an experimental medical procedure?

Btw, the position I'm coming from is that I was officially diagnosed with CFS in Dec 2020 (after being proscribed something I didn't need, that I was already known to react to). In order to better understand the condition, my wife did some searching online at the time and found accounts from people who had developed CFS after getting the Pfizer covid vaccine. However, those sources, often YouTube videos, were quickly deleted and some of the YouTubers said they'd been told their accounts would be deleted if they continued to say they'd got CFS from the vaccine.

So she kept following the topic - even videos US and UK politicians talking about vaccine damage in congress or Parliament were removed by YouTube to enforce censorship of criticism.

I also joined a few FaceBook CFS groups and found people there also reporting their symptoms had begun after getting the vaccine, or booster, but admins had to regulate those posts after FaceBook threatened deletion for making such claims.

If the idea that the vaccine caused harm was nothing more than a conspiracy, it was the most incredibly organised and extensive one I've ever seen. The idea that such claims were borne of ignorance just don't wash. I was there - we were there, we saw it happening as it was happening. We saw people trying to say they'd become ill after the Pfizer vaccine, and then them immediately silenced if they tried to maintain that position.

Sorry, can't access your NYT link, though not sure what the first is trying to say. It seems to come from the position that the medical profession thinks there's nothing wrong with the Pfizer vaccine, because there's no contrary evidence - but if there was a refusal to collect evidence in the first place how does that reflect the argument? After all, I seem to recall North Korea officially counted no covid deaths at all at one point during the pandemic (I think Japan did the same, too).

Im sorry.. i had two friends that were previously healthy die suddenly. They refused to do autopsies. My boss has neurological issues and a coworker who developed POTS. All were given shots and boosters because of work. The last two were told its long covid.. not due to shots themselves.

Edit to add a friend was in medical field had shots and boosters developed pnemonia they intubated her and gave her remdesivir she died from organ failure

 

[moralorel]

Measles cases linked to Texas outbreak grows to 259, with just 2 among fully vaccinated people

The number of measles cases associated with an outbreak in western Texas has grown to 259, according to new data released Friday.

abcnews.go.com

The cases rise....and yes even vaccinated people are getting it....well..2 of them...out of the 259 new cases.

Risk? I'll take the jab and listen to science.

Yes because I care about my fellow man...this non believer does the "christian" thing...

This measles outbreak is soooo bad that we haven't seen anything like this in ages... so 2019.

It's weird that these outbreaks keep happening in Texas and New Mexico. Must be all of those outdoor BBQs.

 

[moralorel]

Me thinks we disagree on the definition of science...and maybe even people.

We do. To me blue and red have no effect on science. That's where we differ on this matter.

 

[moralorel]

OK. Nor do I. I'm just not as extreme about it.


As do I.


You're arguing from sources you don't trust?


Nothing personal, but this is getting close to insulting my intelligence, so I'm out.

I provided liberal sources, which isn't easy to do. If I provide conservative or neutral sources, they are often dismissed as "fake news". If I tell you that a liberal media outlet lied, and I don't provide a source, I would think that would be the insult to one's intelligence.

It's my intelligence that has been insulted.

 

[moralorel]

..not everything is "black & white" as you imply..


No, I don't believe that. Those with responsibility made informed decisions. Do they
always make the right ones? Of course not.


You can find what you want to find .. but we all know that they don't "stop transmission".
They do however, slow it down .. as do curfews and shutting down airports etc.


Assumptions are just that .. assumptions .. until they are shown to be correct.


Right .. if I was in a position of responsibility, I would also try to reassure the public, unless
I had reliable evidence to the contrary.


It's better than your 'cherry-picked' sources .. and it has references for the points it makes.


I don't blame them .. there are too many whacko theories out there..
Govt. authorities, of whichever stripe, are constantly challenged for political reasons, and this
can have a serious effect on us all ..

You come across, as if covid struck again, you would advise everybody to ignore govt. advice.
That is rather extreme, and you carry the responsibility for the consequences .. just like
those in power carry the responsibility ..

We all know that there is corruption when it comes to spending public money .. but that is not
the issue here.
i.e. private versus tax


Right .. you must do what you see is best for you, whilst not putting others in danger in the process.

You weren't there. People who are supposed to act responsibly often are at odds with someone with political aspirations and opinions. If you are a director of a hospital and you defy government decisions you WILL be fired. You will then be replaced with the next person who will comply, facts or not. Never in my life have I seen such a mass suppression of critical thinking. It's part of the reason I left the medical field.

I'm not criticizing people for trying to make informed decisions and then failing. I'm criticizing them for knowing better. They HAD evidence to the contrary AND they still went along with a lie. Money talks.

I didn't cherry pick my sources. Please do explain how scientific journals and studies aren't as good as a Wiki page that has censored the truth and is written by amateurs?

If some of these whacko theories would stop coming true, that would help this issue.

You keep making assumptions about me. Do you not read what I type or the articles that I cite? I already told you what I would have done instead. Nowhere did I say I would ignore government advice. But I will stand up to them when they are obviously lying to us and using lies to take away our freedom. Stop making up extremes. There is nothing extreme about standing up to corruption and dishonesty.

There is corruption everywhere. Not sure why you're talking about spending public money. I'm worried about the politicians who are getting their pockets stuffed by greedy and dishonest pharmaceutical companies.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'm worried about the politicians who are getting their pockets stuffed by greedy and dishonest pharmaceutical companies.

I'm used to that .. ever since my late teens, I've been aware of "breadheads" ..
..that's what I used to call it back in the day.

..but I am aware that you have problems in medical areas and/or funding in the US.
..but most countries have problems like this, of one sort or another.
A sign of the times, most likely.

 

[moralorel]

The New York Times, one of the most liberal newspapers in the U.S., just published an article about the Wuhan lab leak and the eventual coverup. The article tells us that scientists and organizations who tried to get to the truth about the matter lost all of their funding and were silenced. Scientists and politicians deleted emails to cover their tracks. They even bragged about how well they had scrubbed their emails of any of their research that would tie the virus to the lab. 77 Nobel laureates lied to cover up the leak. 31 scientific societies knowingly lied to cover it up. Money talks. Scientists published papers saying that, without any doubt, the Covid virus was not from a lab leak. Yet these very same scientists admitted that they all believed the leak to be likely. But we didn't know this until their emails were subpoenaed. We have the emails of Fauci and his colleagues trying to throw off a reporter who had information about the leak. The German Federal Intelligence Service had declared that their investigation of virus origins led them to at least an 80% certainty that the lab originated in the Wuhan lab. This was ignored.

All of these facts were buried and dismissed as "right-wing conspiracies". It's a fact that government agencies lied about the origins of the virus and worked very hard to cover it up. All for the "common good".

Opinion | We Were Badly Misled About the Event That Changed Our Lives

Five years after the start of Covid, we still don’t know the truth.

www.nytimes.com

 

[muhammad_isa]

The New York Times, one of the most liberal newspapers in the U.S., just published an article about the Wuhan lab leak and the eventual coverup..

We don't know that covid originated in a lab..
We are fairly confident it originated in China .. probably through animal-to-human chain
of transmission.

I strongly suspect Chinese authorities know more than they are saying.
..and they refused international enquiry. I imagine they are happy with "the lab leak"
conspiracy .. it deflects the issue away from other truths about how it originated.

eg. lack of hygiene in animal husbandry

 

[moralorel]

We don't know that covid originated in a lab..
We are fairly confident it originated in China .. probably through animal-to-human chain
of transmission.

I strongly suspect Chinese authorities know more than they are saying.
..and they refused international enquiry. I imagine they are happy with "the lab leak"
conspiracy .. it deflects the issue away from other truths about how it originated.

eg. lack of hygiene in animal husbandry

You once again didn't read my article. It is highly likely the virus came from the lab in Wuhan. There is zero evidence the virus originated from nature. Zero. Somehow you must have missed the emails from the actual scientists who investigated the matter. They were troubled by the fact that this virus looked exactly like the one that an American organization was manipulating in that very same lab. The scientists associated with that lab bragged about how they were able to erase all emails that connected this virus to the lab. These same scientists purchased burner phones and started using personal emails for their correspondence on the matter. They admitted that they didn't want their conversations about the virus to be traced.

Some of the scientists did vent about their frustrations with the Chinese government. The Chinese government did not cooperate and tried to blame the outbreak on the market in Wuhan. They also initially claimed the virus was harmless. The scientists who weren't frustrated with China were the ones who were trying to cover up the truth. If you would like I could share the chain of emails with you. They are linked in the article that you didn't read after all.

It was NOT a lack of hygiene. It was carelessness in a lab doing experiments that they shouldn't have been doing in the first place. We talked before about what I would do. Well, this is at least the third time a lab leak has happened which caused a pandemic. Maybe learn from those other events? Maybe don't lie about it?

 

[muhammad_isa]

It was NOT a lack of hygiene. It was carelessness in a lab doing experiments that they shouldn't have been doing in the first place..

That's your belief .. people believe what they want to believe..

The first known case was identified in Wuhan, China, in December 2019. Most scientists believe that the SARS-CoV-2 virus entered into human populations through natural zoonosis, similar to the SARS-CoV-1 and MERS-CoV outbreaks, and consistent with other pandemics in human history.
COVID-19 - Wikipedia

A zoonosis (/zoʊˈɒnəsɪs, ˌzoʊəˈnoʊsɪs/ ⓘ; plural zoonoses) or zoonotic disease is an infectious disease of humans caused by a pathogen (an infectious agent, such as a bacterium, virus, parasite, or prion) that can jump from a non-human vertebrate to a human.
Zoonosis - Wikipedia

-------------------------------------------------

"The Chinese government did not cooperate and tried to blame the outbreak on the market in Wuhan."

They claimed all sorts of things .. they had a wish to cover-up a nation-wide problem.

Multi-storey pig farms have been built in China over recent years; the Chinese government released a policy in 2019 allowing the construction of high-rise breeding facilities.
The country’s high demand for pork is stimulating the construction of multi-storey pig farms in China, in addition to huge losses in production (an estimated 10 million pigs) as a consequence of the African swine fever (ASF) outbreak in 2018-2020.
multi-storey-pig-farms-in-china

The effluent has to go somewhere.
..and back in 2019, the demand far outstripped supply (due to disease), and they imported massive amounts of pork .. also of concern.

 

[moralorel]

That's your belief .. people believe what they want to believe..

The first known case was identified in Wuhan, China, in December 2019. Most scientists believe that the SARS-CoV-2 virus entered into human populations through natural zoonosis, similar to the SARS-CoV-1 and MERS-CoV outbreaks, and consistent with other pandemics in human history.
COVID-19 - Wikipedia

A zoonosis (/zoʊˈɒnəsɪs, ˌzoʊəˈnoʊsɪs/ ⓘ; plural zoonoses) or zoonotic disease is an infectious disease of humans caused by a pathogen (an infectious agent, such as a bacterium, virus, parasite, or prion) that can jump from a non-human vertebrate to a human.
Zoonosis - Wikipedia

-------------------------------------------------

"The Chinese government did not cooperate and tried to blame the outbreak on the market in Wuhan."

They claimed all sorts of things .. they had a wish to cover-up a nation-wide problem.

Multi-storey pig farms have been built in China over recent years; the Chinese government released a policy in 2019 allowing the construction of high-rise breeding facilities.
The country’s high demand for pork is stimulating the construction of multi-storey pig farms in China, in addition to huge losses in production (an estimated 10 million pigs) as a consequence of the African swine fever (ASF) outbreak in 2018-2020.
multi-storey-pig-farms-in-china

The effluent has to go somewhere.
..and back in 2019, the demand far outstripped supply (due to disease), and they imported massive amounts of pork .. also of concern.

I cited an article that was backed by scientific journals and the emails of the scientists who investigated the matter. You can read the links to these journals for yourself. All of the sources that claim the virus is natural all come from the same small group of scientists who had ties to the lab. If you had read the article you would know this.

You cited Wikipedia. I would think that science journals would be more reliable, but what do I know.

 

[iBrian]

Fauci

Ah, yes - that's the guy - funding US research at Wuhan, that would have been illegal to do in the US itself because it was otherwise considered too dangerous and unethical.