I believe in good!

Really liked this. Thanks
Prefer “transcending” ego by basing one’s very being from a deep, naturally convergent, zone within . Defense mechanisms of ego apply to a surface zone of material objects where we live. Spirit runs deeper than that.
 
It is tremendous, we (the non catholic) thought John Paul was unbelievable. This new pope is bringing about a revolution in interfaith acceptance from "the church"!
All well and good, but so often the non-Catholic world is fed on soundbites rather than a fuller understanding of the issues.

JPII was quite a conservative, remember his go-to guy was Cardinal Ratzinger / Pope Emeritus Bendict XVI who was an intellectual heavyweight and not popular with the media at all – in a 90-minute address, journalist picked out one sentence in the hope of inciting a Muslim reaction ... tragically, it did.

Same with Francis – all soundbite from journos and no substance.

The Church underwent a sea-change at Vatican II, I don't think there's been anyone quite so 'revolutionary' since John XXIII.
 
Prefer “transcending” ego by basing one’s very being from a deep, naturally convergent, zone within . Defense mechanisms of ego apply to a surface zone of material objects where we live. Spirit runs deeper than that.
It would seem to me that ego runs deeper than perhaps you allow, as ego applies to our very self-identification of being as more than a material object?

And as long as you're talking of the human spirit, that's OK, but do realise when talking to an Abrahamic, or (most) Hindus, and most Buddhists, there is something distinctly other than that.

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The Abrahamics are replete with language that speaks of something in the ground of being that is, one might say, simply ontologically, pure existence ... we each have an affinity because we exist, but we are not the fullness of existence and full existence (plenitudo esse et plenum esse) and “nothing else but pure existence (nihil aliud nisi purum esse).”

This “pure naked existence”, he maintains, is “without any accident, without anything foreign, (pure) substance without quality, without form” and is “above accident, species, and genus”).

There are corresponding commentaries in Hindu and Buddhist philosophies ...

It presents an uncrossable or impermeable barrier to us because there's no-thing there. The mind, the nous, recoils ... only faith can assay the barrier. We are of this aion. That is not ...

just throwing ideas in there ...
 
The Abrahamics are replete with language that speaks of something in the ground of being that is, one might say, simply ontologically, pure existence ... we each have an affinity because we exist, but we are not the fullness of existence and full existence (plenitudo esse et plenum esse) and “nothing else but pure existence (nihil aliud nisi purum esse).”

This “pure naked existence”, he maintains, is “without any accident, without anything foreign, (pure) substance without quality, without form” and is “above accident, species, and genus”).
Loved that! Same page probably, except semantics
 
It presents an uncrossable or impermeable barrier to us because there's no-thing there. The mind, the nous, recoils ... only faith can assay the barrier. We are of this aion. That is not ...
On first impression, I don’t agree with that part. What you said is consistent with Bohr’s (father of Quantum Physics) inviolable wall, which I think was wrong too.
The human mind at its deepest level is consistent with a deeper dimension, is of the same non-stuff “stuff”’. We just conflate surface thinking with pure mind. Even an individual mind can come up with some “thing” out of no thing. Behind thoughts are mind, and mind is a chip off the old Block, Mind Itself. Fits with notion that we are “in the image of God.
 
The only difference in our view seems to be that I think that faith is a mental act even though it is not cognitive. I write poetry and lyrics using faith at times, because it comes out of nowhere as far as the thinking mind is concerned. You may disagree by saying it relies on subconscious thoughts. But even those thoughts come out of nowhere before mind decided to notice and record the images and impressions subconsciously. Even the individual mind operates out of nothingness. We only count the things, But the mind operates, initially without the things. In the vein of Kant’s Idealism, mind informs things more than things inform mind (the empiricists’ view). “In the beginning…,”
 
This would explain why, before I was ever taught the facts of life or the science of genetics I saw either in a dream or mind’s eye (a vision) men and women connected at each other’s midsection in a twisting chain. I later learned that I saw a representation of the double helix.
 
On first impression, I don’t agree with that part. What you said is consistent with Bohr’s (father of Quantum Physics) inviolable wall, which I think was wrong too.
That's comparing two unalike things ...

The human mind at its deepest level is consistent with a deeper dimension, is of the same non-stuff “stuff”’.
OK.

We just conflate surface thinking with pure mind. Even an individual mind can come up with some “thing” out of no thing. Behind thoughts are mind, and mind is a chip off the old Block, Mind Itself. Fits with notion that we are “in the image of God.
Only very loosely ... it's not a telling argument, and there is plenty to suggest a contrary way of viewing.

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We just conflate surface thinking with pure mind.
You don't, and neither do I, nor do the arguments I offer. There is a long tradition of marking the distinction between the human intellect and 'the Intellect' as something transcendent.

Even an individual mind can come up with some “thing” out of no thing.
I'm not sure that's the case. The process might escape one's attention, but even revolutionary and utterly staggering ideas have their place in the broader scheme of things ... can you example such an event?

Behind thoughts are mind, and mind is a chip off the old Block, Mind Itself.
The point I'm making is there might be more than Mind?

To suppose Mind itself runs the risk of being an anthropomorphic exemplar.

Fits with notion that we are “in the image of God.
Well that depends on how we read that notion ... ;)
 
The only difference in our view seems to be that I think that faith is a mental act even though it is not cognitive.
I would argue there is the cognitive element in faith.

I would also add one does not have to be an intellectual to be a saint or a sage ... here is the distinction between the way of being and the way of knowing – and yet both are active in each, it's just a matter of degree.

I write poetry and lyrics using faith at times, because it comes out of nowhere as far as the thinking mind is concerned. You may disagree by saying it relies on subconscious thoughts. But even those thoughts come out of nowhere before mind decided to notice and record the images and impressions subconsciously. Even the individual mind operates out of nothingness. We only count the things, But the mind operates, initially without the things. In the vein of Kant’s Idealism, mind informs things more than things inform mind (the empiricists’ view). “In the beginning…,”
Authors write of their characters the same way ... artists generally say the same ... I found stuff I had written, and have no recollection of writing it ... it is a faith process in the broad sense, and I certainly do not play down the process, nor its significance ... but as ever I think it points beyond itself, rather than at itself ...
 
I believe the world is evolving to a more peaceful place...

Ever since Cain and Able...it's Biblical.

All recorded history we continue to be more compassionate, take care of more of us and kill less (percentage wise) of our fellow man.

This thread is for posting evidence or links which support my thesis, now we know there are negative Nellie's and they can't help themselves but disagree... misery desires company.

Evolution of dogs agrees...
From Reptilian brain stem “eat or be eaten”, to mammalian limbic system “let’s help each other,” to cortical (modern rationality) “what overall gets the most bang for our buck?”, to prefrontal cortex’s “how can we harmonize and energize our very humanity?” ????
Of course we are having trouble advancing to the latter, a spiritual stage/age. But the signs of regression are actually evidence of an underlying push towards the new stage. Some are trying to hold onto the old skin that our “body” is preparing to shed. Not unlike Jesus’s old wineskins that can’t hold the new wine.
 
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but as ever I think it points beyond itself, rather than at itself
Like that, But again, I simply emphasize that it’s not not self. I want to lovingly protect us from authoritarianism, a vulnerability to resolving the fear and tension of not knowing by clinging to the answers a so-called “higher authority” (BEYOND our limited little selves) gives us and rescues us with. I think true teamwork can only occur through appreciation of the positive potential each and every player possesses.
Having said that, I have often thought “You can’t get there from here; you can only get here from there.” That’s in line with the point I think you are making. So I’m not sure whether I agree with you or disagree! But it’s a wonder-full dilemma.
 
I would also add one does not have to be an intellectual to be a saint or a sage .
The gift of intellectual understanding is different than experiential understanding. The former is a doing (albeit internal) sort of thing. While the latter is a being sort of thing. And we probably agree that the latter IS the greater of the two, but both are needed for sustainable spiritual growth in a world consisting of “things” we must negotiate with. The relationship between the two seems to involve what I have heard called “dynamic symmetry.”
 
I want to lovingly protect us from authoritarianism, a vulnerability to resolving the fear and tension of not knowing by clinging to the answers a so-called “higher authority”
The flaw here then is what 'authority' does your argument rest on?

You throw out an accusation of authoritarianism and there again we have someone resurrecting the old dichotomies (as if science wasn't authoritarian!) – and falling back on a Staw Man argument.

To be blunt, I'm no more in favour of authoritarianism than you, but I wouldn't fall back on a fantasia in favour of a hierarchical reality.

I have often thought “You can’t get there from here; you can only get here from there.” That’s in line with the point I think you are making.
Not quite.

It all starts here. We get there from here. It's whether we can get beyond the cosmos from here, that's the point.

It seems to me that everything you're saying as belonging to the cosmos, or perhaps this aion of this cosmos.

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I wonder if this adds anything:

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." (Genesis 1:1-3)

Scholars agree that "the beginning" is not meant as a temporal event. The Hebrew is רֵאשִׁית rē'šîṯ, while the Septuagint Greek says ἐν ἀρχῇ en arche and the Latin Vulgate is explicit 'in principio'. The text is referring to ontological rather than temporal events, temporality being subsequent and a condition of creation.

The heaven and the earth speaks of two orders, and not merely spiritual and physical, as (perhaps) neither have emerged yet...

Without form and void, darkness and deep – there is your unconditioned matter – the formless substrate, some Quantum whatever, prior to waves or particles, out of which all subsequent forms arise.

And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters is the emphasis of a category difference but also, perhaps, of a relational difference. There is God and there is this undifferentiated that God has called into existence ...

Let there be light is, of course, intelligibility ... but one might also argue before this that it means let that undifferentiated, anarchic, inchoate state nevertheless be(come) coherent, because albeit undifferentiated, anarchic, inchoate and so on, there is a value and a meaning and a purpose in it, as contradictory as that sounds.

But if we look at how cosmology says the Book of the Laws of Physics was there, entire and complete, right in the very first moment of physical existence, then that's saying much the same thing.

Somewhere in that journey from nothing to something, being emerges, and from being, mind. Whether it's mind first or being first is, I think, a chicken-and-egg kind of debate, but the point is there was It before there was aught else, and the difference between It and aught else is Absolute and Irrevocable ... except that by that Willing of light by It, there is a dimension of intelligibility and comprehension, even if that is a comprehension of that which lies beyond Mind, beyond the world of forms and the formless.

I believe and hope in the union of the two, but I take care to preserve from the promethean error of our primordial forebears to fall into the trap of assuming that as our by right and/or by nature.

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It depends whether one is humanist, pantheist, or panentheist.

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Hi @otherbrother ...

I'm posting this in the hop you can see something of the issues I come up against when trying to have a reasoned discussion.

I want to lovingly protect us from authoritarianism, a vulnerability to resolving the fear and tension of not knowing by clinging to the answers a so-called “higher authority” (BEYOND our limited little selves) gives us and rescues us with.
I hope you might appreciate there's a vast range of assumptions going on here ,,, in general I'd say the standout point is the accusation is easily made, but as a critique it is superficial with regard to the tradition thus dismissed, and does not actually address the principles being discussed.
 
The gift of intellectual understanding is different than experiential understanding.
Yes ... and both presuppose something understood ... what about that which transcends understanding, transcends the intellect?

John 20 speaks of this:
(1) And on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalen cometh early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre; and she saw the stone taken away from the sepulchre. (2) She ran, therefore, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved (John), and saith to them: They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

– There is a traditional symbolic reading of Scripture that regards Peter as archetypical of the will, and John of the intellect. So hereafter I shall replace the name with the archetype the name represents –

(3) Will therefore went out, and that other disciple (Intellect), and they came to the sepulchre. (4) And they both – Will and Intellect – ran together, and that other disciple (Intellect) did outrun Will and came first to the sepulchre.

– this is because the will is in a sense blind, or at least dependent, but it provides the power to move – in another analogy will equates to heat as intellect to light –

(5) And when Intellect stooped down, he saw the linen cloths lying; but yet he went not in. (6) Then cometh Will, following Intellect, and went into the sepulchre ...

– The Intellect is confronted with Not Knowing, and can do nothing, it cannot comprehend what has happened. Will, however, is the means by which we take the step into the void, as it were, the means by which we step out of our certitudes and safeties, our comfort zones –

It's worth reading the whole section.

The exegesis above is shaped on that of Johannes Scottus Eriugena's Homily on the Gospel of St John. as recorded in The Voice of the Eagle: The Heart of Celtic Christianity: John Scotus Eriugena’s homily, trans. Thomas Moore, et al. Lindisfarne Books, 1990

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The former is a doing (albeit internal) sort of thing. While the latter is a being sort of thing. And we probably agree that the latter IS the greater of the two, but both are needed for sustainable spiritual growth in a world consisting of “things” we must negotiate with. The relationship between the two seems to involve what I have heard called “dynamic symmetry.”
Absolutely ...

St Thomas thinks along the lines that being is according to its act (it is as it does), its act is its way of being (it does what it is).
 
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