On Fallen Angels

TheLightWithin said:
Good. Quite right.
Earlier today I opened up some pages on the research behind yoga and mental health, I'm hoping to squeeze in enough time to read them so as to summarize and post.
I was ambitious enough to google whether there is research on something like hesychastic prayer and mental health, if I find something good I will read and post a link.
I should look at the research on service animals and PTSD again. Problematically I am sometimes asked to write a letter in support of someone having an emotional support animal, which is less well defined and there's less research on AFAIK. I usually only write those letters for someone to be able to have AN animal in an otherwise restrictive living facility. But such animals are not specially trained the way service animals are and I cannot assess the animal.
I realize that last statement goes off topic a bit but I'm just reminding myself of the importance of research... reading research literature can be tedious but it's a good start,
Click to expand...
I believe every vet diagnosed with PTSD and if they so desire should be given a trained service animal paid for by our government. There are laws that protect rights of disabled people that have service animals. Emotional support animals is not the same as they do not undergo the same training.
 
TheLightWithin said:
Interesting... I take it you agree with the presentation?
Were you surprised by any of the details, or disagree with any?

I think the one called the "humanistic" worldview presents a hodgepodge of ideas that may not super-well represent a worldview of anybody who self reports being "humanistic" or even a "naturalistic" worldview. I mean, I guess it must represent what at least some factions of Christians think
humanism is about, so it's useful to further understand what some people who, I guess maybe dislike secularism or something, are thinking.

I wonder, how did someone arrive at this? If it's all AI it's just grabbing info from around.
But if a Christian (or someone from another religion who wanted to compare and contrast) really wanted to get something solid, they could do a bunch of interviews of "secular" or "humanistic" or "naturalistic" thinking people to get clarity. Maybe they've already done that, I don't know. Do you know of such a study? I can't help but think this could possibly be flavored by assumptions a particular faction of Christians (such as maybe fundamental or evangelical) make about those who are not religious. I wonder if they ever go into depth to try to understand the thinking - or perhaps are too satisfied with the commentary that says "open rebellion against god, you think you're a god, you worship man, you're trying to create a utopia, it's marxism etc" and not really looking into the wide variety of responses one might get, or how incredibly broad and wide ranging the thought is in secular philosophy or in science... that can't easily or accurately be dismissed as just "the world" and not really examined - i mean all secular philosophies cannot accurately be all lumped in together.
Click to expand...
There were a lot of images to choose from when i googled world view vs biblical view. That is just one i chose at random. Feel free to search yourself.
 
Faithfulservant said:
There were a lot of images to choose from when i googled world view vs biblical view. That is just one i chose at random. Feel free to search yourself.
Click to expand...
If I decided to explore worldview as a topic, I would probably approach it slightly differently. Googling "world view vs biblical view" is almost guaranteed to present material written from a specific bias, that of not only a Christian slant but probably, probably, American evangelical. It's information, but not maybe in the way they think it is? As in it doesn't necessarily reflect reality, but their take on things. I literally don't know yet if anybody from "a biblical world view" has sat down and interviewed people from either different denominations, different religions, or the non religious, to see whether their interpretation is accurate, as to what all the various non-evangelical's world view really is. Maybe I'll find that? That an honest effort like that was put in? Rather than imposing assumptions about "the" "world" - If I put something like that on the list, maybe I'll find that somebody did a deep dive. If I put it on the list... and i have a long list of stuff to look up and it keeps growing...
 
Faithfulservant said:
Yogas main theme is emptying one's mind..
Click to expand...
A good start..
Yogi bear has it. ;)

Faithfulservant said:
To understand why someone would call it evil is simply understanding that if the mind is empty who or what is going to fill it..
Click to expand...
Well, we are in control of that.
However..

.."yoga" in the Western world often entails a modern form of Hatha yoga and a posture-based physical fitness, stress-relief and relaxation technique, consisting largely of asanas; this differs from traditional yoga, which focuses on meditation and release from worldly attachments.
Yoga - Wikipedia

In other words, it depends what one means by 'yoga'.
I used to practise yoga in my 20's .. basic postures such as head stand and lotus.
I found it to be healthy.

..and sometimes it's good to get rid of mundane thoughts .. that are often negative.

Faithfulservant said:
We are called to meditate on the Word of God nowhere in scripture does it tell us to empty our mind of thought but to take our thoughts captive to make it obedient to Christ.
Click to expand...
Of course .. we need to study, and seek knowledge ..
Travel is also beneficial in that regards .. books/prose is not the sum of life.
 
muhammad_isa said:
.."yoga" in the Western world often entails a modern form of Hatha yoga and a posture-based physical fitness, stress-relief and relaxation technique, consisting largely of asanas; this differs from traditional yoga, which focuses on meditation and release from worldly attachments.
Yoga - Wikipedia

In other words, it depends what one means by 'yoga'.
I used to practise yoga in my 20's .. basic postures such as head stand and lotus.
I found it to be healthy.

..and sometimes it's good to get rid of mundane thoughts .. that are often negative.
Click to expand...
Indeed
muhammad_isa said:
Of course .. we need to study, and seek knowledge ..
Travel is also beneficial in that regards .. books/prose is not the sum of life.
Click to expand...
Indeed
 
Short article explaining yoga's impact on PTSD and how it is understood to work

How yoga can help ease PTSD symptoms – PTSD UK

PTSD UK - a community for everyone in the UK affected by Post Traumatic Stress Disorder
www.ptsduk.org www.ptsduk.org

To give credit to a slightly opposing viewpoint, this meta-analysis reveals a conclusion of finding slight evidence for yoga as a treatment for PTSD and as a result making what they call a weak recommendation in favor of yoga. They note no negative side effects of yoga reported in the data they reviewed. They also noted the need for further study (as many research papers do)
bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com

Yoga for posttraumatic stress disorder – a systematic review and meta-analysis - BMC Psychiatry

Background Yoga is increasingly used as a therapeutic treatment and seems to improve psychiatric conditions such as anxiety disorders and depression. The aim of this systematic review was to assess the evidence of yoga for reducing symptoms of posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Methods The...
bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com

This short video explains what a meta analysis is about, for anybody who doesn't already know and is interested.
 
Last edited:
Thomas said:
but the ghosts of the nefilim then became the demons that now haunt the world.
Click to expand...
That is good to know, a clearer definition of what demons are thought to be.
I'm glad I re-reviewed!
I thought returning to the first post would be a good idea - hoping to veer things back to the starting point at least some.
 
talib-al-kalim said:
I see this tradition going back to Zostrian/Parsic//ancient Persian myth. The "Minor Spirit" (Shaitan) opposed the "Major Spirit" (God). The "Major Spirit" accepted the challenge for "1000"years. The Parsic traditions have been written down late in the Khorda Bundahishn, but I think that they have already been told around 400 BCE, in the Jewish 2nd Temple period.
The later traditions on the fall of Iblis(commonly identified with the devil, although the name is different from Shaitan) have been even quoted (I would say, as an illustration) in the Quran.

I understand that as a myth. But what does it mean to us?
Click to expand...
It does seem to imply supernatural causes or at least contributions to human behavior.
I wonder though how that affects our understanding of free will and responsibility? Too easy to say "the devil made me do it?"
Or -- Is there more to it than that?
 
Thomas said:
(The term 'person' derives via the Etruscan Phersu, meaning the mask worn by an actor in performance; the Latin Persona means 'actor's mask' or 'character in a play'. The Greek Prosopa means 'face' or 'mask'. The idea of 'a person' as a self-determining conscious being is very late, a post-Christian development. Curiously, the Chriostological disputes fed into this philosophical development of the individual.)
Click to expand...
Interesting... person meaning character(s)
 
Thomas said:
'Histories', as a term we understand today, the forensic records of events in ordinary time, came much, much later.

Myths are the histories we told of the time before time.

By "once upon a time" we should immediately understood not a time in the sense of tempus or chronos, but rather in that “age” (aevum, aion) that lies in the interval between our time and eternity.

In Genesis 2, for example, YHWH Elohim "took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it." (Genesis 2:16)

It was the Gods who taught us to speak of ourselves as placed within nature but also somehow set apart from it.

Myths recall the time, that once long ago existed, when anthropomorphic deities and theomorphic human beings walked, as it were, and talked. In those tales, where the Gods told us about our origins, taught us to think for ourselves, and offered salutary warnings about the calamities that lie in wait, that even they could not avoid ... those myths shape who and what we are, even today.

We cannot escape them. They are our Dreamtime. It's no coincidence that the Greek Myths encompass the archetypes of human psychologies.

We cannot escape the fact we are narrative creatures, and the most powerful and natural narrative idiom is the myth – it shapes us entirely.

+++

And they are true, in their own sense, and real, in a way our modern histories are not.

+++

Myth is the most real, the most true and the most beautiful narrative form.
Click to expand...
This is beautiful. This portion of your post - could be a standalone poem. 😯
 
So I hemmed and hawed over whether to post this as it is not the full article, the full article is behind a paywall.
However I just thought it was interesting that somebody did this study (hesychastic prayer as mental health treatment)
(as I stated earlier I would try to look up)
It's only the abstract but interesting
 
Thomas said:
When God ordered these bound in prison as well, Mastema prevailed on him to allow a tenth of their number to continue roaming the world till the last day, so as to test humanity and punish the wicked; and thus Mastema comes to serve as “a satan” (that is, an Accuser) in this age,
Click to expand...
Fascinating.
What would Mastema's motive have been? Did he truly want to punish the wicked? Did he just want his minions free? Did he hope to gain anything for his agenda? Or... Is that even known?
 
Thomas said:
The myth may have been about the lesser god Helel trying to dethrone the Canaanite high god El.
Click to expand...
That sounds right... Just looking it up quick to refresh what little bit I knew about this name, I see google AI does say Helel is an epithet of Lucifer or Morning Star, and that the name Helel was before the fall and Lucifer afterwards.

Interestingly and coincidentally, I stumbled onto this... it was high on the google search page

Behind Enemy Lines: Lucifer, Helel, and Satan

Satan was first named Helel, or 'son of the dawn.' When Jerome translated the Hebrew into Latin, he named him Lucifer, or light-bringer, a title of Christ!
www.sabbath.org

Poking around that site, many of their beliefs and teachings are rather similar to what I remember from my grandfather.
Hunh.
It seems among their many articles they offer links to they even have something authored by Herbert Armstrong
The things you find...
 
TheLightWithin said:
It does seem to imply supernatural causes or at least contributions to human behavior.
I wonder though how that affects our understanding of free will and responsibility? Too easy to say "the devil made me do it?"
Or -- Is there more to it than that?
Click to expand...
I personally don't believe that spirits or djinn are entities that have an independent mind, plan or will, rather, they are archetypes of our own mindsets. I even understand the Holy Spirit, our inner Voice of God, as part of our mind, the part that is guiding us.
 
talib-al-kalim said:
I personally don't believe that spirits or djinn are entities that have an independent mind, plan or will, rather, they are archetypes of our own mindsets. I even understand the Holy Spirit, our inner Voice of God, as part of our mind, the part that is guiding us.
Click to expand...
But if the Angel Jibreel spoke to the Prophet (pbuh) then the Angel must be capable of discourse, and if the Angel is our inner voice of God, the product of our mindset, then does not that imply it is the fruit of our imagination and, by extension, so might be the Revelation made known, and even the God whom is revealed?
 
Thomas said:
But if the Angel Jibreel spoke to the Prophet (pbuh) then the Angel must be capable of discourse, and if the Angel is our inner voice of God, the product of our mindset, then does not that imply it is the fruit of our imagination and, by extension, so might be the Revelation made known, and even the God whom is revealed?
Click to expand...
There can't be any revelation to humans without our minds. There are a few ahadith how Muhammad (p.b.u.h) received revelation , among them the following:

Narrated 'Aisha: Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you?" Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) replied, "Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell, this form of Inspiration is the hardest of all and then this state passes off after I have grasped what is inspired. Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says." 'Aisha added: Verily I saw the Prophet (ﷺ) being inspired divinely on a very cold day and noticed the sweat dropping from his forehead (as the Inspiration was over).
Click to expand...
It seems that he had very intense and clear visions. But only Muhammad (p.b.u.h) saw and heard it, Aisha, his wife was sometimes present, but she only saw her husband, not what he heard and saw. This tells me that everything took place in his mind.
That's not what we experience ourselves; if we stand before God in prayer, it is by far not the same, neither in intensity nor in relevance. But we also receive guidance in our mind if we free it from our will and our preoccupation and allow God's Spirit to shape our thoughts.
 
talib-al-kalim said:
There can't be any revelation to humans without our minds.
Click to expand...
Indeed, but the fact that the angel was neither seen or heard by others there does not necessarily deny the angel autonomous existence outside of the human mind, nor of agency.

The Angel of God appeared to Mary and spoke to her ... but her belief in the conception of a child by the power of the Holy Spirit was not a product of her own intellect.
 
Thomas said:
Indeed, but the fact that the angel was neither seen or heard by others there does not necessarily deny the angel autonomous existence outside of the human mind, nor of agency.
Click to expand...
You are right, it's no proof. I'm not claiming that my assumption is proven.
Thomas said:
The Angel of God appeared to Mary and spoke to her ... but her belief in the conception of a child by the power of the Holy Spirit was not a product of her own intellect.
Click to expand...
I never experienced an Angel of God to speak to me.

When I was in primary school, a teacher of mine once entered the classroom with a shine in her face, and instead of the morning greeting, she said, "Écoutez, j'ai vu un ange..." (Listen, I have seen an angel... ) She was on a meadow. He told her that she should have peace and that God would receive her. She was an elderly woman who had actually retired but she liked to continue giving classes in Reformed Christan religion (as I told before that I also attended Christian religion although I was not supposed to do so). She passed away half a year later. We didn't asked her about it any further, and I was only 10 years old then.

I don't deny that inspiration exists, not at all.
It's our choice by which spirit we let our minds be guided. But if we choose guidance by God, the Merciful, it is Him who will guide us in mercy and love, and it's Him who decides what we receive.
If we open our minds to greed and envy, this evil spirit will guide us astray.

In my opinion, all that happens in our minds.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top