Why don't Christians worship as Jews do?

Bandit said:
hey Truthseeker:)

here is my little take on this.

some churches & christian organizations have church on both days. that does not mean that the entire organization/religion that particular church belongs to does it on saturday or saturday only.

i suppose if the first business day was sunday & everyone started work on sunday, then i would view saturday as the 7th day. i have always viewed sunday as the last day of the 'work week' & saturday as the 6th day (regardless of the calendar or tradition) & due to business days or for whatever reason, i just do.

so i guess my question would be (outside of tradition) if we are supposed to work 6 days & rest on the 7th, then would not the first work day be sunday instead of monday?
just a question of mine, since i did not create, edit or change the calendar or the work week. that is just what i was born into:)

I understand what you mean, Bandit. That is the way I thought about it as well until I came into a humble understanding of what the Sabbath is. On the calendar, Sunday is still the first day of the week - dedicated to the worship of the Sun (historically, but some don't like the sound of that.). If you look at it correctly and then plainly, Saturday is the day of rest. Then Sunday is your day of worship.
 
chokmah said:
The closest thing that I can see being a blatant example of what you state is Replacement Theology. There are those who believe that the Church replaces the Jews as "Israel".
Indeed, the Church does believe that it has replaced the Jews as Israel and make the necessary adjustments for its claim...
The real felonious consideration of that belief system is that the people want all the blessings that are to come to Israel, but never own up to the punishments. The thinking behind that is that the Jews have been punished, and now some new body gets all the blessings. Quite a trade, huh?

Anyways...

But I note, looking at your avatar, are you not a Christian yourself?
Strangely enough, I claim Christianity - but the Church won't have me. I don't think that I am against the Church - but I'm not a numbskull either.
 
Quahom1 said:
Being sacked is not the same as Rome falling. Rome as a power of any kind did not fall for good, until roughly 560 AD. Jesus (according to scholars) was born 7 BC (this we know from prophecy, and historical dates of say, King David's beginning rule "1007 BC" and the prophecy that Christ would come 1000 years later. Christ's announcment (that is to say His baptism and beginning of His publicly known work) was in 29 AD (this we know for fact from historical dates in the Bible pertaining to certain secular leaders' rule at the time of His announcement). That would mean Jesus began his public work at age 36 (vise 30 as we are taught in Sunday school), and that He was crucified at age 39, and not 33. (this I think is very very important, since a man then as now is not a man settled and with anchors accepted by society until the age approaching 40).

This actually makes sense since a man was not considered a man until age 30, and only a whelp of a man at that. Who would listen to a man of youth?

Now, If this is all accurate stuff, then Christ died in the year 32 AD. Forty years later the city of Jeruselem was raized...not bad. (the church got something nearly right). 390 years later (422 AD), Rome got its butt kicked. But that wasn't the end of Rome. That did not come until 100 years later at the hands of Germanic warriors (who were cold, tired and simply wanted a piece of the action) who found out that "Rome" wasn't what they'd dreamed and heard about. So they took matters into their own hands.

Please note: Rome was dying at the time of Christ's life. Since they could not enforce the "law" with soldiers, they started writing the "law" in Golden ink, thinking that would whoo the citizens...how pathetic. Pilate couldn't make a decision on his own to save his own butt, if you think about it. The Jews made the decisions for him, and he acquiessed. (Who was in control?) ;)

Carthage, you should remember, was not Rome, but a conquered city, under Roman rule. It wasn't even in Europe.

But by 520 AD Rome was a shell of its former self. A house of cards to be blown over by the wind. And that is what happened.
The view is always interesting in the Christian light - and I mean that sincerely. ;)
If one is smart, in self-preservation there are those who never forget. Rome has not fallen - it just exists under another name.
 
Originally Posted by truthseeker Why is it that Christians don't worship as Jews do?

I think that in Jesus' message he was trying to bring God's chosen back unto him. He said that he did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. So why do Christians feel like we don't have to worship on the Sabbath day? And why do we use the Old Testament when we need to make reference to the 'words in red' but we feel like we don't really have to follow anything but the ten commandments, when Jesus himself was a Jew?

Originally Posted by chokmah
The closest thing that I can see being a blatant example of what you state is Replacement Theology. :confused: There are those who believe that the Church replaces the Jews as "Israel".
The real felonious consideration of that belief system is that the people want all the blessings that are to come to Israel, but never own up to the punishments. The thinking behind that is that the Jews have been punished, and now some new body gets all the blessings. Quite a trade, huh?

Indeed, the Church does believe that it has replaced the Jews as Israel and make the necessary adjustments for its claim...Strangely enough, I claim Christianity - but the Church won't have me. I don't think that I am against the Church - but I'm not a numbskull either.
How is it that some believe the "church" has replaced the jews and Israel? If I remember the OT correctly, those who are of the Faith of Abraham and his Seed are also the true "church", the difference being we worship in Love, Spirit and Truth and not the OC Law and Ordinances that came after Abraham through Jacob/Israel.

What exactly is "Replacement Theology" as I have heard that mentioned a number of times, but am not fully familiar with it. Is there a topic on it somewhere? Thanks.
Steve
 
InChristAlways said:
How is it that some believe the "church" has replaced the jews and Israel? If I remember the OT correctly, those who are of the Faith of Abraham and his Seed are also the true "church", the difference being we worship in Love, Spirit and Truth and not the OC Law and Ordinances that came after Abraham through Jacob/Israel.

What exactly is "Replacement Theology" as I have heard that mentioned a number of times, but am not fully familiar with it. Is there a topic on it somewhere? Thanks.
Steve

i have never seen anyone talk about that here before & i am not sure who started it. that always seemed like another 'off the top of my hat' dogma. i dont see where the church replaced israel & i am not real crazy about people who say that. when ever i have seen that kind of theology, it leads to bigotry.
 
InChristAlways said:

How is it that some believe the "church" has replaced the jews and Israel? If I remember the OT correctly, those who are of the Faith of Abraham and his Seed are also the true "church", the difference being we worship in Love, Spirit and Truth and not the OC Law and Ordinances that came after Abraham through Jacob/Israel.
Just the nature of the wording 'Old Testament' and 'New Testament' and your comment after the posed question is an accurate example of Replacement Theology.
What exactly is "Replacement Theology" as I have heard that mentioned a number of times, but am not fully familiar with it. Is there a topic on it somewhere? Thanks.
Steve
You and Chokmah explained Replacement Theology quite well, I think. It can be a hard pill to swallow though for those who believe in Manifest Destiny and that the Christian Bible is the inerrant word of God.
 
Bandit said:
i have never seen anyone talk about that here before & i am not sure who started it. that always seemed like another 'off the top of my hat' dogma. i dont see where the church replaced israel & i am not real crazy about people who say that. when ever i have see that kind of theology, it leads to bigotry.

I probably started it. Sorry. :rolleyes:

No real Christian sees where the church replaced Israel because the church didn't replace Israel. But the sublimal message is there.
 
Originally Posted by chokmah
The closest thing that I can see being a blatant example of what you state is Replacement Theology. :confused: There are those who believe that the Church replaces the Jews as "Israel".
The real felonious consideration of that belief system is that the people want all the blessings that are to come to Israel, but never own up to the punishments. The thinking behind that is that the Jews have been punished, and now some new body gets all the blessings. Quite a trade, huh?
Originally Posted by InChristAlways

How is it that some believe the "church" has replaced the jews and Israel? If I remember the OT correctly, those who are of the Faith of Abraham and his Seed are also the true "church", the difference being we worship in Love, Spirit and Truth and not the OC Law and Ordinances that came after Abraham through Jacob/Israel.
Just the nature of the wording 'Old Testament' and 'New Testament' and your comment after the posed question is an accurate example of Replacement Theology.
No real Christian sees where the church replaced Israel because the church didn't replace Israel. But the sublimal message is there.
Originally Posted by Bandit
i have never seen anyone talk about that here before, that always seemed like another 'off the top of my hat' dogma. i dont see where the church replaced israel & i am not real crazy about people who say that. when ever i have see that kind of theology, it leads to bigotry.:confused:
Bigotry? I don't understand that, as God is God of all, regardless of "religion", correct?

So it is a matter of one being of the Faith of Abraham and his Seed, and those of the faith of the Covenant of Mt Sinai through Jacob/Israel and Moses, the jews.

That doesn't sound like "Replacement Theology", just 2 "churches" side by side, who share the belief of One God, the Creator.

Anyway, perhaps someone can start a topic on it unless it would be too "controversial".?.
Steve
 
InChristAlways said:
Bigotry? I don't understand that, as God is God of all, regardless of "religion", correct?

So it is a matter of one being of the Faith of Abraham and his Seed, and those of the faith of the Covenant of Mt Sinai through Jacob/Israel and Moses, the jews.

That doesn't sound like "Replacement Theology", just 2 "churches" side by side, who share the belief of One God, the Creator.

Anyway, perhaps someone can start a topic on it unless it would be too "controversial".?.
Steve

oh yes it does turn into bigotry because some of them say the Jews go to hell & have been replaced by Christians...the same way each of these Christian denominations tell each other they are going to hell unless you join them.
i think Origen or Augustine started all that. (not sure)
i dont seperate God into religion. there is one God & as far as i am concerned He is the same God of the jew & the christian, the muslim the american indians....
 
truthseeker said:
I probably started it. Sorry. :rolleyes:

No real Christian sees where the church replaced Israel because the church didn't replace Israel. But the sublimal message is there.

good to see you Truthseeker:)
i agree with that too. no one is going to replace israel.

i always thought you were talking about the sunday & saturday thing.
 
Originally Posted by InChristAlways
Bigotry? I don't understand that, as God is God of all, regardless of "religion", correct?

So it is a matter of one being of the Faith of Abraham and his Seed, and those of the faith of the Covenant of Mt Sinai through Jacob/Israel and Moses, the jews.

That doesn't sound like "Replacement Theology", just 2 "churches" side by side, who share the belief of One God, the Creator.

Anyway, perhaps someone can start a topic on it unless it would be too "controversial".?.
Steve
oh yes it does turn into bigotry because some of them say the Jews go to hell& have been replaced by Christians...the same way each of these Christian denominations tell each other they are going to hell unless you join them.
i think Origen or Augustine started all that. :((not sure)
i dont seperate God into religion. there is one God & as far as i am concerned He is the same God of the jew & the christian, the muslim the american indians....
I am in total agreement here on One God and Creator overall. I never read the early church father's writings that people bring up, so I am not familiar with their beliefs, but I do follow Jesus and Paul's teachings on Love and Peace. The jews do have the original Covenant with God in respect to Mt Sinai and why I do not worship as they do as I am not under their Covenant.

Thank you for clarifying that. Peace.
Steve

1 corin 10:31
Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32 Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God,
 
truthseeker said:
Indeed, the Church does believe that it has replaced the Jews as Israel and make the necessary adjustments for its claim...

Strangely enough, I claim Christianity - but the Church won't have me. I don't think that I am against the Church - but I'm not a numbskull either.

Thanks for sharing. I empathize about your situation though.
 
Replacement Theology in a nutshell is an ideology that the Jews have been rejected by G-d and the Christian Church takes the place of Israel as the "nation of priests". This replacement has afforded the Christian Church all the blessings that are enumerated in the Torah, but none of the punishments. The punishments are being carried out on the Jews, because of their supposed rejection by G-d. This rejection is carried out against the Jews, because they reject Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. As for who started it, it was Paul. Replacement Theology is gleaned from the words of his letters. Marcion was a HUGE advocate of the theology, and in many circles, it is still alive and well.

And, yes, it does lead to bigotry.
 
truthseeker said:
The view is always interesting in the Christian light - and I mean that sincerely. ;)
If one is smart, in self-preservation there are those who never forget. Rome has not fallen - it just exists under another name.

I suppose, if I was expressing a Christian POV. However, that came from a secular history book, being used in a public school...:eek: :D
 
chokmah said:
Thanks for sharing. I empathize about your situation though.

I'm still growing, Chokmah. No big deal. ;)

I read about Noachide. Interesting. That is something, in my Bible readings, that I overlooked or didn't put any emphasis on in my reading. I thought that those laws were tied into the Mosaic laws...
 
truthseeker said:
I'm still growing, Chokmah. No big deal. ;)

I read about Noachide. Interesting. That is something, in my Bible readings, that I overlooked or didn't put any emphasis on in my reading. I thought that those laws were tied into the Mosaic laws...

They were re-confirmed at Sinai as binding on the Gentile nations. Yet, there is the separation between Jews and Gentiles in that regard.
 
Quahom1 said:
Remember the song "A little Less Talk and alot more Action" ? We here at CR are looking for more dialogue than pasting of other works (including biblical). Granted referencing scripture is fine, however, personal thought on the issue is devine, and the more personal thought, the better!!! ;)


v/r

Q

HERE HERE...:)
 
chokmah said:
Replacement Theology in a nutshell is an ideology that the Jews have been rejected by G-d and the Christian Church takes the place of Israel as the "nation of priests". This replacement has afforded the Christian Church all the blessings that are enumerated in the Torah, but none of the punishments. The punishments are being carried out on the Jews, because of their supposed rejection by G-d. This rejection is carried out against the Jews, because they reject Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. As for who started it, it was Paul. Replacement Theology is gleaned from the words of his letters. Marcion was a HUGE advocate of the theology, and in many circles, it is still alive and well.

And, yes, it does lead to bigotry.

From my reading of the Bible and New Testament, I don't think Christianity replaces anything. Nothing is replaced. There is no "Replacement Theology."

Jesus came into this world for purely sentimental purposes. It wasn't part of some Divine Constitutional Law. He wasn't following some system of rules or formal protocols. Actually, what he came to do was to nullify the moral authority of such a system of rules and formal protocols. In other words, his purpose was to do away with the Systematic Law so that we could align ourselves to something more natural -- something more sentimental -- the Natural Law.

He came as a liberator to emancipate us from ideology and dogma. He came to free us from what the Israelite religious leaders believed was the "Divine Constitutional Law." He freed us from this "Divine Constitutional Law" by proving that it never had any moral authority in the first place. He showed that it was invalid by allowing the religious leaders to condemn an innocent, righteous man -- himself.

Don't get the wrong idea, though. I'm not talking about Judaism here. I'm talking about man-made distortions of God's religion. Both Jews and Christians have done that for centuries. It's where religious leaders turn God's religion into a Constitution. It continues in today's world with the issue of abortion and gay marriages and the "Christian Right" movement in America. It's where people believe in a political system more than they believe in individuals. People's lives are enslaved by ideology and the structure of the world -- and they start believing that to make the world a better place they need to "re-structure" the world. The religious leaders in Jesus' day were doing something similar. Personally, I don't think changing rules and laws is going to help anyone. It doesn't make us better people.

In a sense, Christianity has no new theology at all. Christianity isn't about "changing the rules." It's just a story we believe in. It's a story of how a man died on our behalf to free us from formal protocols. The legacy of that man lives on. It's a shift in focus. Once upon a time we believed rules and formal protocols were the most important ingredient in "purity" and "righteousness." Then along came a man who changed all that . . .

The terms "Christian" and "Jew" are just a way of labelling people to distinguish who believes or does not believe in that story. Think of these two words as like a signpost. It's like we're fans of a Christian concept of Jesus. I don't see how it's wrong to be a fan. Fans of celebrities like John Farnham, Nicole Kidman, Greg Norman and Andre Agassi aren't bigots. Fans of celebrities devote themselves to the personality, charisma and life story of that person. It's like that with Christianity. It's a religion dedicated to the memory of a person.

It's about the story and legacy of one man. This story means something to us and we think it's important.:) We're not going to throw this story in the dumpster just because it happened two thousand years ago. Moreover, if our religion is about a God we can trust and a personal connection with that God, then it is important that we recognise what such a God has done for us. Christianity is supposed to be something sentimental. Sure, there's a long history of disputes about what is correct or incorrect about the story and concept of Christ, but these are just attempts to forge something concrete and systematic in Christianity. It's where people try to fit Christianity into some kind of model, philosophy or mystical science.

The "bigotry" is a result of a belief not in something sentimental, but something systematic, scientific and concrete. It's a result of people trying to compartmentalise Christianity. It's where people do it with their heads and not their hearts. They believe Christianity should be compartmentalised and that these compartmentalisations apply to everybody.

It's when we realise that Christianity was meant to be something purely sentimental that we stop all the bickering and factionalism and realise that what we fought over wasn't what Christianity represented in the first place. It's just us trying to fit Christianity into some kind of model. When we focus on the sentimental we start connecting with people and we start appreciating the true meaning of the Religion of Christ, and accepting each other's differing views. We may even start realising that there is no real difference between the Religion of Christ and the Religion of Israel. The only significant difference is that the Religion of Christ is the story of what God did to reconnect with His people.

Christianity isn't a threat. It's an invitation. You don't have to come. Try thinking of us as more like a social club than a recruiting force.:D
 
From my reading of the Bible and New Testament, I don't think Christianity replaces anything. Nothing is replaced. There is no "Replacement Theology."

Jesus came into this world for purely sentimental purposes. It wasn't part of some Divine Constitutional Law. He wasn't following some system of rules or formal protocols. Actually, what he came to do was to nullify the moral authority of such a system of rules and formal protocols. In other words, his purpose was to do away with the Systematic Law so that we could align ourselves to something more natural -- something more sentimental -- the Natural Law.

He came as a liberator to emancipate us from ideology and dogma. He came to free us from what the Israelite religious leaders believed was the "Divine Constitutional Law." He freed us from this "Divine Constitutional Law" by proving that it never had any moral authority in the first place. He showed that it was invalid by allowing the religious leaders to condemn an innocent, righteous man -- himself.

Don't get the wrong idea, though. I'm not talking about Judaism here. I'm talking about man-made distortions of God's religion. Both Jews and Christians have done that for centuries. It's where religious leaders turn God's religion into a Constitution. It continues in today's world with the issue of abortion and gay marriages and the "Christian Right" movement in America. It's where people believe in a political system more than they believe in individuals. People's lives are enslaved by ideology and the structure of the world -- and they start believing that to make the world a better place they need to "re-structure" the world. The religious leaders in Jesus' day were doing something similar. Personally, I don't think changing rules and laws is going to help anyone. It doesn't make us better people.

In a sense, Christianity has no new theology at all. Christianity isn't about "changing the rules." It's just a story we believe in. It's a story of how a man died on our behalf to free us from formal protocols. The legacy of that man lives on. It's a shift in focus. Once upon a time we believed rules and formal protocols were the most important ingredient in "purity" and "righteousness." Then along came a man who changed all that . . .

The terms "Christian" and "Jew" are just a way of labelling people to distinguish who believes or does not believe in that story. Think of these two words as like a signpost. It's like we're fans of a Christian concept of Jesus. I don't see how it's wrong to be a fan. Fans of celebrities like John Farnham, Nicole Kidman, Greg Norman and Andre Agassi aren't bigots. Fans of celebrities devote themselves to the personality, charisma and life story of that person. It's like that with Christianity. It's a religion dedicated to the memory of a person.

It's about the story and legacy of one man. This story means something to us and we think it's important.:) We're not going to throw this story in the dumpster just because it happened two thousand years ago. Moreover, if our religion is about a God we can trust and a personal connection with that God, then it is important that we recognise what such a God has done for us. Christianity is supposed to be something sentimental. Sure, there's a long history of disputes about what is correct or incorrect about the story and concept of Christ, but these are just attempts to forge something concrete and systematic in Christianity. It's where people try to fit Christianity into some kind of model, philosophy or mystical science.

The "bigotry" is a result of a belief not in something sentimental, but something systematic, scientific and concrete. It's a result of people trying to compartmentalise Christianity. It's where people do it with their heads and not their hearts. They believe Christianity should be compartmentalised and that these compartmentalisations apply to everybody.

It's when we realise that Christianity was meant to be something purely sentimental that we stop all the bickering and factionalism and realise that what we fought over wasn't what Christianity represented in the first place. It's just us trying to fit Christianity into some kind of model. When we focus on the sentimental we start connecting with people and we start appreciating the true meaning of the Religion of Christ, and accepting each other's differing views. We may even start realising that there is no real difference between the Religion of Christ and the Religion of Israel. The only significant difference is that the Religion of Christ is the story of what God did to reconnect with His people.

Christianity isn't a threat. It's an invitation. You don't have to come. Try thinking of us as more like a social club than a recruiting force.:D

Actually Saltmeister Christianity is not sentimental. One cannot carry their cross in a sentimental fashion. Christianity and Judaism though complimentary are far from the same and must by their natures be approached differently. I've never really read their essential difference explained better than in the following.

I've been reading "Simone Weil and the Intellect of Grace" by Dr. Henry Leroy Finch. He wrote it as he was dying so the book contains a lot of sincerity. In chapter 12: Time and Timelessness, he makes the following comparison between Judaism and Christianity:

................The law has a timeless character just because it is laid down once and for all as part of the timeless myth or timeless history of the people. Even when it is practiced by only a handful of people, it remains alive and authoritative. These Orthodox people are a demonstration of the original character of Judaism which did not distinguish the sacred from the secular and united the cultural, the biological, and the religious in one timeless system.

I turn to the Christian experience of time and timelessness. This is as much a closed book to Jews as the Jewish point of view is to Christians. But as the Jews have their treasure which is the treasure of the Law preserved in the torah, Christians too have their treasure, which is the spirit of Christ preserved in the Gospels.

If we study the Gospels we will find that it is life in the present - not in the timeless present of past and future, but in the (timeful) present of the NOW - that is the true essence of Christianity The secret of the teaching of Christ is that all true life is life in the present, as distinct from the past and the future. This is where reality is. If there is no experience of the present, as the now, then there is no real life at all.


There is nothing sentimental about this. Christianity is life itself in the raw. Sentimentality destroys this experience.
 
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