Kingdom of God/Heaven

[aburaees]

Prove it. 1914...prove it, scripturally.

v/r

Q

I'm not a Jehovah's Witness but I'm familiar with the chronology...

The last king of Israel had his crown revoked in Eze 21:25-27. It is taken that this happened in 607 B.C.E. but I'm not sure how this date is arrived at (I've forgotten where I saw the explanation).

"Seven times" are to pass before the rule is restored, when Israel has a new king, from Da 4:32, 16, 17. These are also known as the gentile times, when the gentiles rule over Israel.

In Re 12:6, 14; 11:2, 3 we learn that three and a half times is 1,260 days.

This makes seven times to be 2,520 days.

From Eze 4:6; Nu 14:34 we get the "day for a year" equation.

Applying this to the seven times gives 2,520 years.

The kingdom will be established at the end of the seven times Lu 21:24; Da 7:13, 14 This is when Israel gets a new king, who happens to be Christ Jesus. Though Jesus' kingdom is established in spiritual Israel, not physical Israel.

Counting forward from 607 B.C.E. by 2,520 years (bearing in mind that there was not a year 0 C.E.) we arrive at 1914 - when Jesus was crowned king of spiritual Israel.

This is when Satan and his angels were finally kicked out of heaven, resulting in the worsening of conditions here on Earth... WWI, Spanish Flu, WWII, Arab-Israeli wars, Cold War, HIV, Earthquakes, Tsunamis, e.t.c. all happening on a grander scale than ever before, and all happening in the same era.

Jesus' physical appearance, along with the horsemen of the apoc. is coming soon at an hour which nobody knows but the Father.


So, that's it folks, from a Jehovah's Witness perspective. Not my perspective by the way, I'm gonna stay neutral on this one.

.

 

[Quahom1]

I'm not a Jehovah's Witness but I'm familiar with the chronology...

The last king of Israel had his crown revoked in Eze 21:25-27. It is taken that this happened in 607 B.C.E. but I'm not sure how this date is arrived at (I've forgotten where I saw the explanation).

"Seven times" are to pass before the rule is restored, when Israel has a new king, from Da 4:32, 16, 17. These are also known as the gentile times, when the gentiles rule over Israel.

In Re 12:6, 14; 11:2, 3 we learn that three and a half times is 1,260 days.

This makes seven times to be 2,520 days.

From Eze 4:6; Nu 14:34 we get the "day for a year" equation.

Applying this to the seven times gives 2,520 years.

The kingdom will be established at the end of the seven times Lu 21:24; Da 7:13, 14 This is when Israel gets a new king, who happens to be Christ Jesus. Though Jesus' kingdom is established in spiritual Israel, not physical Israel.

Counting forward from 607 B.C.E. by 2,520 years (bearing in mind that there was not a year 0 C.E.) we arrive at 1914 - when Jesus was crowned king of spiritual Israel.

This is when Satan and his angels were finally kicked out of heaven, resulting in the worsening of conditions here on Earth... WWI, Spanish Flu, WWII, Arab-Israeli wars, Cold War, HIV, Earthquakes, Tsunamis, e.t.c. all happening on a grander scale than ever before, and all happening in the same era.

Jesus' physical appearance, along with the horsemen of the apoc. is coming soon at an hour which nobody knows but the Father.


So, that's it folks, from a Jehovah's Witness perspective. Not my perspective by the way, I'm gonna stay neutral on this one.

.

Thank you for the information and insight into this issue. That indeed is food for thought.

v/r

Q

 

[lunamoth]

I'm not a Jehovah's Witness but I'm familiar with the chronology...

The last king of Israel had his crown revoked in Eze 21:25-27. It is taken that this happened in 607 B.C.E. but I'm not sure how this date is arrived at (I've forgotten where I saw the explanation).

"Seven times" are to pass before the rule is restored, when Israel has a new king, from Da 4:32, 16, 17. These are also known as the gentile times, when the gentiles rule over Israel.

In Re 12:6, 14; 11:2, 3 we learn that three and a half times is 1,260 days.

This makes seven times to be 2,520 days.

From Eze 4:6; Nu 14:34 we get the "day for a year" equation.

Applying this to the seven times gives 2,520 years.

The kingdom will be established at the end of the seven times Lu 21:24; Da 7:13, 14 This is when Israel gets a new king, who happens to be Christ Jesus. Though Jesus' kingdom is established in spiritual Israel, not physical Israel.

Counting forward from 607 B.C.E. by 2,520 years (bearing in mind that there was not a year 0 C.E.) we arrive at 1914 - when Jesus was crowned king of spiritual Israel.

This is when Satan and his angels were finally kicked out of heaven, resulting in the worsening of conditions here on Earth... WWI, Spanish Flu, WWII, Arab-Israeli wars, Cold War, HIV, Earthquakes, Tsunamis, e.t.c. all happening on a grander scale than ever before, and all happening in the same era.

Jesus' physical appearance, along with the horsemen of the apoc. is coming soon at an hour which nobody knows but the Father.


So, that's it folks, from a Jehovah's Witness perspective. Not my perspective by the way, I'm gonna stay neutral on this one.

.

This chronology is interesting. For comparison, Baha'is use a similar approach to show that Jesus returned (physically to earth, not to a throne in heaven) in 1844:

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host that will be trampled underfoot?"

14 He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated." (Daniel 8)

2300 eves + morns = 2300 days = 2300 years

The start of this period is said to be 457 BC, at the time of the third decree regarding the return of the Islaelites to Jerusalem by King Artaxerxes (Ezra 7) during the seventh year of his reign. I'm not sure how it is determined that this corresponds to 457 BC.

The end of the 2300 years is in 1844 CE, from the Baha'i Writings:

Then from the date of the issuing of the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until the day of the birth of Christ there are 456 years, and from the birth of Christ until the day of the manifestation of the Báb there are 1844 years. When you add 456 years to this number it makes 2300 years. That is to say, the fulfillment of the vision of Daniel took place in the year A.D. 1844, and this is the year of the BÁB'S manifestation according to the actual text of the Book of Daniel. (Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 41)

The Bab is considered the Manifestation of God who announced his mission in the year 1844, fulfilling this prophecy.

Then there is another interesting calculation of the date 1844 based upon Revelation:

1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." (Rev 11)

1260 days here = 1260 years by the same year for a day exchange, and the 42 months also = 1260 days = 1260 years.

Abdul Baha teaches that this 1260 years corresponds to the duration of the Islamic dispensation, as 1844 CE = the year 1260 in the Islamic calendar.

Interestingly, the Seventh Day Adventists and some other Christian and Islamic sects were expecting the Return of Christ in 1844. Among Christians, when Christ did not return as expected, the letdown is referred to as the Great Disappointment. Of course, to Baha'is it was not a disappointment as Christ returned right on schedule.

lunamoth

 

[aburaees]

Of course, to Baha'is it was not a disappointment as Christ returned right on schedule.

lunamoth

Like a thief in the night?

.

 

[mee]

l

It is quite obvious that those that belong to Christ will be in Heaven with the Lord. God wants it to be our hearts to desire to go to heaven with Him, not to be resurrected on earth.

yes as you say , those who will be going to heaven , which the bible calls A LITTLE FLOCK,
"Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom."—LUKE 12:32.
these are the ones that the bible is talking to here , and the other verses that you mentioned ,but the bible also speaks about OTHER SHEEP which are not of that fold.
"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd."—JOHN 10:16. yes these other sheep have the hope of living on a paradise earth. but they still listen to Jesus voice, and recognise him as the only way to salvation. they are the ones that will get through the Great tribulation.
When Jehovah created the first humans and put them in the garden of Eden, he made it clear that his purpose was that the earth be populated, that all of it be a paradise, and that its human caretakers enjoy life forever—on the condition that they respect and obey their Creator.—Genesis 1:26-28; 2:15-17; Isaiah 45:18. that purpose has not changed and it will come to be , even though satan has tried to stop that purpose it will happen . Jehovah has it all in hand .

 

[mee]

See this is part of my issue...first I guess there will be an incredible database so we can find each other...then our geneolgical buddies will have a field day as they go back through time finding all their ancestors...and it'll be here on earth...hmmm so we'll be smaller...or G-d will expand the earth to be larger....to hold all the trillions when the time comes? And then of course the issue of water and food...I guess those issues will be absolved as well...none of us will have to grow, harvest or package...it'll just appear...and hmmm the sewage treatment plants...can you imagine the waste we'll create...or in this heaven we'll not have a need for that...hate to be plumber in heaven if we do...again I know I'm being logical, or maybe illogical...but I think it wonderous that you can revel in this...Not something I'm looking forward to...still can't even wrap my mind around it.

remember these things will come about through Gods way of doing things, not mans ways, and it is surprising that we dont have to go back very far in history and there were not as many people on the earth as now . and yes the earth will provide abundantly, as the bible tells us it will . and remember it will not be goverments of men it will be the best goverment with Jesus as ruler , and he does things Gods way.

 

[mee]

Prove it. 1914...prove it, scripturally.

v/r

Q

i think i have already posted prove that the significant date of 1914 is bible based, we can choose to take that on board or we can choose not too. for me i choose to take it on board , and i believe that Jesus has taken up the kingship that his father has given him. yes i can see that Jesus is NOW a ruling king in Gods established kingdom. the appointed times of the nations has ended, and Jesus as the rightful heir has been given the throne
(Luke 1:32) This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High; and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father,
As for this also, it will certainly become no [one’s] until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give [it] to him.’Ezekiel 21;27 yes 1914 was the end of the appointed time of the nations ,its all happening .
And Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations ["times of the Gentiles," KJ, RS] are fulfilled." (Lu 21:24)

 

[mee]

I'm not a Jehovah's Witness but I'm familiar with the chronology...

The last king of Israel had his crown revoked in Eze 21:25-27. It is taken that this happened in 607 B.C.E. but I'm not sure how this date is arrived at (I've forgotten where I saw the explanation).

"Seven times" are to pass before the rule is restored, when Israel has a new king, from Da 4:32, 16, 17. These are also known as the gentile times, when the gentiles rule over Israel.

In Re 12:6, 14; 11:2, 3 we learn that three and a half times is 1,260 days.

This makes seven times to be 2,520 days.

From Eze 4:6; Nu 14:34 we get the "day for a year" equation.

Applying this to the seven times gives 2,520 years.

The kingdom will be established at the end of the seven times Lu 21:24; Da 7:13, 14 This is when Israel gets a new king, who happens to be Christ Jesus. Though Jesus' kingdom is established in spiritual Israel, not physical Israel.

Counting forward from 607 B.C.E. by 2,520 years (bearing in mind that there was not a year 0 C.E.) we arrive at 1914 - when Jesus was crowned king of spiritual Israel.

This is when Satan and his angels were finally kicked out of heaven, resulting in the worsening of conditions here on Earth... WWI, Spanish Flu, WWII, Arab-Israeli wars, Cold War, HIV, Earthquakes, Tsunamis, e.t.c. all happening on a grander scale than ever before, and all happening in the same era.

Jesus' physical appearance, along with the horsemen of the apoc. is coming soon at an hour which nobody knows but the Father.


So, that's it folks, from a Jehovah's Witness perspective. Not my perspective by the way, I'm gonna stay neutral on this one.

.

thats about it ,but Jesus will never come back to the earth in the flesh again physically, and Jesus is already riding on his white horse , and he has on his crown . its all happening right now , the book of revelation is happening right now.
Revelation chapter 6 foretold the ride of the symbolic four horsemen, which would result in much violence and distress in the earth. We have seen this take place right before our eyes.
And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest." (Revelation 6:2)
Jesus Christ riding forth as heavenly king.
the vision of the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. (Revelation 6:1-8) The first of these horsemen pictures Jesus himself as conquering King. The other riders with their steeds picture happenings on earth that mark the beginning of Jesus’ reign: war, famine, and untimely death through various agents. Do we see this fulfilled today? i think we most certainly do.

 

[mee]

This chronology is interesting. For comparison, Baha'is use a similar approach to show that Jesus returned (physically to earth, not to a throne in heaven) in 1844:

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host that will be trampled underfoot?"

14 He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated." (Daniel 8)

2300 eves + morns = 2300 days = 2300 years

The start of this period is said to be 457 BC, at the time of the third decree regarding the return of the Islaelites to Jerusalem by King Artaxerxes (Ezra 7) during the seventh year of his reign. I'm not sure how it is determined that this corresponds to 457 BC.

The end of the 2300 years is in 1844 CE, from the Baha'i Writings:



The Bab is considered the Manifestation of God who announced his mission in the year 1844, fulfilling this prophecy.

Then there is another interesting calculation of the date 1844 based upon Revelation:

1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." (Rev 11)

1260 days here = 1260 years by the same year for a day exchange, and the 42 months also = 1260 days = 1260 years.

Abdul Baha teaches that this 1260 years corresponds to the duration of the Islamic dispensation, as 1844 CE = the year 1260 in the Islamic calendar.

Interestingly, the Seventh Day Adventists and some other Christian and Islamic sects were expecting the Return of Christ in 1844. Among Christians, when Christ did not return as expected, the letdown is referred to as the Great Disappointment. Of course, to Baha'is it was not a disappointment as Christ returned right on schedule.

lunamoth

yes the 2,300 days, its all happening to Gods people in these the last days,world powers do not like it when Gods people obey God as ruler rather than men.ACTS 5; 29 all this has already happened to Gods people ,
Daniel 7:25 also speaks of a period of time when ‘the holy ones of the Supreme One are harassed continually and its all to do with war . Gods people obey God , they are peacable and do not learn war ,yes Gods people have been through many things in this the time of the end.

 

[wil]

remember these things will come about through Gods way of doing things, not mans ways, and it is surprising that we dont have to go back very far in history and there were not as many people on the earth as now . and yes the earth will provide abundantly, as the bible tells us it will . and remember it will not be goverments of men it will be the best goverment with Jesus as ruler , and he does things Gods way... Jesus is already riding on his white horse , and he has on his crown . its all happening right now ,...

Seems to me, like the concept of riding white horses, wearing a crown...those are all material things that man's ego aspires to and puts upon spiritual thought...it seems these writings and discussion are very much not the way of spirit...but man putting clothes on spirit to suit man's needs.

What in the world would heaven need a government for?

 

[Jeannot]

I agree, Wil.

It seems that this thread has passed into fantasy. I prefer the down-to-earth. Here's what I think is a great statement about the Kingdom of God:

"For Jesus, God's Kingdom is a modest affair, not obvious to the untutored eye. It offers little by way of earthly reward. Its demands are staggering. He apparently did not want it confused with traditional mundane hopes."--THE FIVE GOSPELS (JS)

Beware of looking for some slambang, Hollywood/Disney extravaganza. God is in Ezekiel's "still, small voice."

 

[mee]

Seems to me, like the concept of riding white horses, wearing a crown...those are all material things that man's ego aspires to and puts upon spiritual thought...it seems these writings and discussion are very much not the way of spirit...but man putting clothes on spirit to suit man's needs.

What in the world would heaven need a government for?

And the bible ,which is inspired of God , is like a letter from God to us . and it makes sense. the theme of the kingdom runs right through the bible from Genesis to revelation, and its about the vindication and the sovreignty of Jehovah God. yes only the son of God is worthy to take the crown. as you say , man was not created to rule himself , he does not make a good job of it . but God has it all worked out , thrilling i think.

 

[mee]

I agree, Wil.

It seems that this thread has passed into fantasy. I prefer the down-to-earth. Here's what I think is a great statement about the Kingdom of God:

"For Jesus, God's Kingdom is a modest affair, not obvious to the untutored eye. It offers little by way of earthly reward. Its demands are staggering. He apparently did not want it confused with traditional mundane hopes."--THE FIVE GOSPELS (JS)

Beware of looking for some slambang, Hollywood/Disney extravaganza. God is in Ezekiel's "still, small voice."

many people think that the promises in the bible are fantasy , because we have never known anything but war, crime, death, sickness. but the bible promises will come true because God never lies.

 

[Quahom1]

i think i have already posted prove that the significant date of 1914 is bible based, we can choose to take that on board or we can choose not too. for me i choose to take it on board , and i believe that Jesus has taken up the kingship that his father has given him. yes i can see that Jesus is NOW a ruling king in Gods established kingdom. the appointed times of the nations has ended, and Jesus as the rightful heir has been given the throne
(Luke 1:32) This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High; and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father,
As for this also, it will certainly become no [one’s] until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give [it] to him.’Ezekiel 21;27 yes 1914 was the end of the appointed time of the nations ,its all happening .
And Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations ["times of the Gentiles," KJ, RS] are fulfilled." (Lu 21:24)

No, 1914 hasn't been "proven" as biblical. aburaees presented a possiblity to consider. And I must point out that in Revelation is is specific that Jesus "physically" is on a white horse and armored, and physically battles the armies of the earth in one place, wherein He and his army physically wipe out the entire battle field in less than a day.

Your insistance that 1914 is some kind of significant change in the kingdom of God is akin to my insisting that the Pope is infallable (in the ways of the church), and the Vicar of Jesus himself...

my thoughts

v/r

Q

 

[BlaznFattyz]

i find this whole 1914 numerology business extremely cultish and it is a shame imo that it is mixed here with christianity and threads degrade to this. when i have seen over and over again request for proof that it is bibical, nothing is ever produced, except creative math. and when false predicition after false prediction have been made by jw's since their inception, god clearly states in the bible for christians to see false prophets and to not fear them, that is do not listen and take heed to them.

 

[Quahom1]

i find this whole 1914 numerology business extremely cultish and it is a shame imo that it is mixed here with christianity and threads degrade to this. when i have seen over and over again request for proof that it is bibical, nothing is ever produced, except creative math. and when false predicition after false prediction have been made by jw's since their inception, god clearly states in the bible for christians to see false prophets and to not fear them, that is do not listen and take heed to them.

"Moderator hat on"

None the less, it is a variation on Christianity, as JWs profess to be Christians. It is allowed. However, the cut and paste from specific web sites constantly, is frowned upon. That will be addressed shortly.

"Moderator hat off"

v/r

Q

 

[mee]

No, 1914 hasn't been "proven" as biblical. aburaees presented a possiblity to consider. And I must point out that in Revelation is is specific that Jesus "physically" is on a white horse and armored, and physically battles the armies of the earth in one place, wherein He and his army physically wipe out the entire battle field in less than a day.

Your insistance that 1914 is some kind of significant change in the kingdom of God is akin to my insisting that the Pope is infallable (in the ways of the church), and the Vicar of Jesus himself...

my thoughts

v/r

Q

Aburaees pointed out what JW believe, in line with bible prophecy and chronology regarding the date 1914, and yes it is something to consider .for me, it makes a lot of sense. and the bible harmonizes throughout. and just as the bible says ,the first thing that Jesus did after being made king, was throw the rebels out of this heavenly kingdom goverment.

So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven say:​

"Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, revelation 12;9-11
On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time revelation 12;12 yes satan is angry because he knows that he has only a short period of time left before he is put out of the way for 1000years. and the aim of satan is to oppose that heavenly kingdom , nolonger is he allowed in the heavens anymore .and anyone on the earth who upholds that heavenly kingdom goverment satan will do his best to oppose them too. that is the aim of satan ,he does not want anyone to be on Gods side ,he wants the worship for himself. he wants to turn people away from the heavenly kingdom. and the first thing that satan did when he was cast out of the heavens , was to turn peoples minds to things on the earth . and that was the first world war in 1914. he wants as many as possible to go down with him , so any one who is on Gods side will be the ones that satan is out to attack. he wants them to turn away from Jehovah. satan is the ruler of this world and he has coarsed many things to distract .also people who are in ignorance of the heavenly kingdom will be distracted, and even call down evil on the true God because of the bad things that are going on in the world. people blame God .

 

[aburaees]

i find this whole 1914 numerology business extremely cultish and it is a shame imo that it is mixed here with christianity and threads degrade to this. when i have seen over and over again request for proof that it is bibical, nothing is ever produced, except creative math. and when false predicition after false prediction have been made by jw's since their inception, god clearly states in the bible for christians to see false prophets and to not fear them, that is do not listen and take heed to them.

Actually, I don't think you can accuse the Watchtower society or Jehovah's Witnesses of false prophecy...

They did not make a new prophecy at all, they merely interpreted an existing prophecy.

And even if they did get it wrong, it's nothing to do with false prophecy, it's just a mistake in the interpretation. That is, if they got it wrong.

.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

Actually, I don't think you can accuse the Watchtower society or Jehovah's Witnesses of false prophecy...

They did not make a new prophecy at all, they merely interpreted an existing prophecy.

And even if they did get it wrong, it's nothing to do with false prophecy, it's just a mistake in the interpretation. That is, if they got it wrong.

.

actually i did. they already got it wrong.

 

[aburaees]

actually i did. they already got it wrong.

What I'm saying is, the prophecy they're talking about are the ones found in Daniel, Ezekiel, and Revelations.

These prophecies are biblical, therefore they're not false prophecies from a Christian POV.

It is the "interpretation" of these biblical prophecies which is being debated, not the utterance of a "new" prophecy by the Witnesses.

Sorry if I confused things.

.