Kingdom of God/Heaven

didymus said:
Luke 17:20-21 "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'here it is' or 'there it is', because the kingdom of God is within you."
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Hello didymus :) . You might want to read Tolstoy's book by the same name. I just finished it and put a couple of exceprts from it in the What book are you reading? thread of the Lounge here at CR.

Actually, here's a link to the book online: http://www.kingdomnow.org/withinyou.html

cheers,
lunamoth
 
Matthew 7:21 " Not everyone who says to me,"Lord, Lord', will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those that do the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Jesus made a seperation of himself and the Father/God here, do God's will not mine.
 
didymus said:
Matthew 7:21 " Not everyone who says to me,"Lord, Lord', will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those that do the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Jesus made a seperation of himself and the Father/God here, do God's will not mine.
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He also alluded to the 10 maids with lamps and oil waiting for the bridegroom to return (though He is delayed). Five bought extra oil to keep their lamps burning, and five did not...and while out buying extra oil the bridegroom came and took the five waiting (and ready for Him) to the feast. When the remaining five attempted to enter the feast, claiming Lord, Lord let us in, the bridegroom stated "I do not know you"...

Everything has dual or more meanings in the Bible Did, though they all lead to the same point...we should be ready.

v/r

Q
 
I agree, I think by doing the will of the Father we will be ready.
 
didymus said:
Luke 17:20-21 "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'here it is' or 'there it is', because the kingdom of God is within you."
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WHILE Jesus is still in the north (either in Samaria or in Galilee), Pharisees ask him about the arrival of the Kingdom. They believe that it will come with great pomp and ceremony, but Jesus says: "The kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness, neither will people be saying, ‘See here!’ or, ‘There!’ For, look! the kingdom of God is in your midst."​

Jesus’ words "in your midst" have at times been translated "within you." So some have thought that Jesus meant that the Kingdom of God reigns in the hearts of God’s servants. But, obviously, the Kingdom of God is not within the hearts of these unbelieving Pharisees to whom Jesus is speaking. Yet, it is in their midst, since the designated King of God’s Kingdom, Jesus Christ, is right among them

 
I disagree mee. The kingdom of god is in everyone's hearts. The Pharisees hadn't entered it yet. Where did you read that this was mistranslated? I have it reading as "within you" in both NIV and the NKJV Bible.

Read Luke 12:34 "For where your treasure is there your heart will be also."
 
didymus said:
I disagree mee. The kingdom of god is in everyone's hearts. The Pharisees hadn't entered it yet. Where did you read that this was mistranslated? I have it reading as "within you" in both NIV and the NKJV Bible.

Read Luke 12:34 "For where your treasure is there your heart will be also."
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Some feel that the Kingdom is in our heart because of the way Luke 17:21 has been rendered by certain Bible translators. According to the New International Version, Jesus there said: "The kingdom of God is within you."


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In this regard The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible states: "Although frequently cited as an example of Jesus’ ‘mysticism’ or ‘inwardness,’ this interpretation rests chiefly upon the old translation, ‘within you,’ . . . understood in the unfortunate modern sense of ‘you’ as singular; the ‘you’ . . . is plural (Jesus is addressing the Pharisees—vs. 20) . . . The theory that the kingdom of God is an inner state of mind, or of personal salvation, runs counter to the context of this verse, and also to the whole N[ew] T[estament] presentation of the idea."​

A footnote to Luke 17:21 in the New International Version shows that Jesus’ words could be rendered: "The kingdom of God is among you." Other Bible translations read: "The kingdom of God is among you" or "is in the midst of you." (The New English Bible; The Jerusalem Bible; Revised Standard Version) According to the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, Jesus said: "The kingdom of God is in your midst." Jesus did not mean that the Kingdom was in the hearts of the proud Pharisees whom he was addressing. Rather, as the long-awaited Messiah and King-Designate, Jesus was in their very midst. But some time would pass before God’s Kingdom would come.

 
Jesus clearly said in numerous cases that the kingdom was present, not finished, but present. People were entering the kingdom on a daily basis. That isn't to say it would continue and culminate in the future but it was clearly a here and now type preaching that Jesus did.
 
didymus said:
Jesus clearly said in numerous cases that the kingdom was present, not finished, but present. People were entering the kingdom on a daily basis. That isn't to say it would continue and culminate in the future but it was clearly a here and now type preaching that Jesus did.
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Far from being something that a person has in his heart, God’s Kingdom is a real, operating government having a ruler and subjects. It is a heavenly government, for it is called both "the kingdom of the heavens" and "the kingdom of God." (Matthew 13:11; Luke 8:10) In vision, the prophet Daniel beheld its Ruler as "someone like a son of man" brought before Almighty God and given lasting "rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him." (Daniel 7:13, 14) Who is this King? Well, the Bible calls Jesus Christ "the Son of man." (Matthew 12:40; Luke 17:26) Yes, Jehovah designated his Son, Jesus Christ, to be King.

 
IMHO putting off the Kingdom of God into the future is an emasculation of Jesus's teaching. We keep hearing that our rich nations can help the poor when we are in better financial shape, but as Schumaker pointed out, that time never comes - and nor will a Kingdom that we only ever allow to come tomorrow.

There is a concept in Celtic Christianity of the "lifting of the veil" that separates Earth from Heaven. I think this is the way in which the Kingdom of Heaven is "among" us , or "at hand". It is right here if we can but see it. There are those who, like me, claim to have experienced this in their lives. -VC
 
Virtual_Cliff said:
IMHO putting off the Kingdom of God into the future is an emasculation of Jesus's teaching. We keep hearing that our rich nations can help the poor when we are in better financial shape, but as Schumaker pointed out, that time never comes - and nor will a Kingdom that we only ever allow to come tomorrow.

There is a concept in Celtic Christianity of the "lifting of the veil" that separates Earth from Heaven. I think this is the way in which the Kingdom of Heaven is "among" us , or "at hand". It is right here if we can but see it. There are those who, like me, claim to have experienced this in their lives. -VC
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...parting of the veil...between this world and the next...powerful stuff, as well as "enlightening". Almost instantaneous, and never really recognized until calm and reflected upon later. Sometimes its "nearness" can be sensed (on holy ground for example), though it can't be found. Like listening to the sound of the wind...can't tell which way is coming from, only that it is there.

Some hate to leave the area (and sense), others hate staying around.

v/r

Q
 
Mee, John 3:3 " I tell you the truth noone can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

Jesus on many occasions alluded to a faith in God that transcended plain old ritual devotion and outward observances to law. I have tallied all of his remarks of the kingdom and I interpret them as an inner cleansing and devotion along with outward observances and actions; praying in secret, selling belongings, giving to the poor, healing the sick, being born again, etc.

What do you see that runs counter to this theology of Jesus?
 
The things you mention, Did, are just outward signs of the Kingdom. Jesus said the Kingdom was like a treasure found in a field, like a lost coin that was found again etc . It is something incredibly good, something to celebrate, something life-changing. This is the good news. Little things like sharing what you have are then easy and come naturally.

Psalm 23 says "Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life". This is the Kingdom, a feast, a celebration, a party, a treasure. U2 sang "I still haven't found what I'm looking for", but this is it, and it's just a breath away. -VC
 
VC, I see the things I mentioned as inner signs of the kingdom. Born again, selling your belongings, giving to the poor, praying. These are bi-products of an inner transformation. Who would sell all their belongings or even speak in terms of "born again" without ainner change of heart and spirit. I'm not saying that Jesus didn't speak of an outer kingdom also, I think he did. I think the core of Jesus' message though is a raising up of the new nature and dying to the old one. His message was faith in the one true God, devoutness, good heartedness,love,charity etc. I think he spoke of the kingdom as a collective culmination of the coming of the Son of Man.
 
VC, I see the things I mentioned as inner signs of the kingdom. Born again, selling your belongings, giving to the poor, praying. These are bi-products of an inner transformation. Who would sell all their belongings or even speak in terms of "born again" without ainner change of heart and spirit..
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I agree. I think we're pretty much on a wavelength, just differing terminology.
I'm not saying that Jesus didn't speak of an outer kingdom also, I think he did. I think the core of Jesus' message though is a raising up of the new nature and dying to the old one.
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This is certainly the message of St Paul in Romans.
His message was faith in the one true God, devoutness, good heartedness,love,charity etc. I think he spoke of the kingdom as a collective culmination of the coming of the Son of Man.
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"Collective culmination"? Maybe. Tell me more. I still think the Kingdom is more about joy than duty. -VC
 
Jesus' use of Son of Man was not always spoken of in the first person nor could it directly be linked to Jesus at all times.

Apart from the NT,"son of man"is most commonly used in Aramaic as a noun( a man/the man) or as indefinite pronoun(one/someone).
According to Geza Vermes the climax of the dream in verse 13 of daniel where it states "one like a son of man" represents "the saints of the Most High", that is to say, the Jewish people(Dan 7:18,22,27) and this collective interpretation seems to have recently been confirmed by the first century bc Aramaic Daniel Apocryphon from Qumran.

How about this one? Mark 14:62 ( son of man sitting at the right hand of the mighty one.

Matthew 25:31-33 Jesus says the sheep will be on the right side of the Son of Man.

This is confusing here. isn't Jesus supposed to be at the right hand of God? The right is described as being occupied by both the son of man and the shhep. the throne is occupied by the son of man in Matthew and by God in Mark.
 
to be living under the kingdom goverment of God, with jesus as king, a person would have to be a rightous person in Gods eyes that is why 2 peter 3;13 says

But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell .this is not referring to a new literal heavens and earth but to a new ruling authority and a new earthly society of people.



But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,


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And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace(psalm 37;11)

 
Sorry Didymus, I feel sure that when Jesus said "Son of Man" he was referring to himself. By all means go through the references and prove me wrong, but I'd be surprised. As for working out a seating plan for the trinity, forget it! It's not to be taken literally you know. However, I do think that we are all called to be Christ's active presence in this world, and to be like him in (almost) every way. This is clear from John's gospel. -VC
 
didymus said:
Jesus' use of Son of Man was not always spoken of in the first person nor could it directly be linked to Jesus at all times.

Apart from the NT,"son of man"is most commonly used in Aramaic as a noun( a man/the man) or as indefinite pronoun(one/someone).
According to Geza Vermes the climax of the dream in verse 13 of daniel where it states "one like a son of man" represents "the saints of the Most High", that is to say, the Jewish people(Dan 7:18,22,27) and this collective interpretation seems to have recently been confirmed by the first century bc Aramaic Daniel Apocryphon from Qumran.

How about this one? Mark 14:62 ( son of man sitting at the right hand of the mighty one.

Matthew 25:31-33 Jesus says the sheep will be on the right side of the Son of Man.

This is confusing here. isn't Jesus supposed to be at the right hand of God? The right is described as being occupied by both the son of man and the shhep. the throne is occupied by the son of man in Matthew and by God in Mark.
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if you are trying to put the sheep together with Jesus on the right, that it what i see too. but right hand does not mean RIGHT like king & queen. it is an expression of authority. Jesus is in that position right now. It is not Buddah or Muhammed.

right is prefered over the left.
the throne in revelations has Jesus sitting on the throne right smack in the middle & no one else.:)

i think some are confusing the kingdom with similiar teaching of Buddah & all the new age stuff as in EGO & inner man.
The kingdom of God is collection of people, not singled out individual kingdoms.
 
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