Jesus Died A Natural Death.

quote tai: Astrologically (and astronomically), looking into the Heavens for my proof, I will cite the handiwork of The Almighty for evidence ... that this version of events is far more probable & accurate than the version found in the Christian Bible::confused:
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quote FS: Unfortunately... We've all heard this opinion before. You are not breaking new ground posting it. Will it revolutionalize our thinking? no..
Have a nice day
FS
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Acts 13:33 God hath in full completed this to us their children, having raised [#450] up Jesus, as also in the second Psalm it hath been written, My Son thou art--I to-day have begotten thee.
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Hi Tai. Why do you call the Bible a "Christ-ian book"? The word Christ simply means "anointed"[used for priests and kings in the OT]
It is the Book of Life for all the world and those who believe unto the Son of God sent to take away Death and Sin.

There is but one great source for the birth, death, resurrection and ascension of OC Israel's Passover "Lamb" and the world's Lord and Savior, the Holy Scriptures of the Bible.
What was the significance of John calling Jesus the "Lamb" of God? In genesis 22 God provided a "Ram" instead of a Lamb, any significance to that? In fact, Gen 22 is the first time a Lamb is ever mentioned in the sacred OT Scriptures.
Steve

Genesis 22:8 and Abraham saith, `God doth provide for Himself the "Lamb"[#07716] for a burnt-offering, my son;' and they go on both of them together.13 And Abraham lifteth up his eyes, and looketh, and lo, a ram [#0352] behind, seized in a thicket by its horns; and Abraham goeth, and taketh the ram, and causeth it to ascend for a burnt-offering instead of his son;

What struck me about this passage is the singular use of Sin instead of sins.

John 1:29 on the morrow John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, `Lo !, the Lamb of God, who is taking away the sin of the world;

Luke 2:22 And when the days of their cleansing are fulfilled according to the law of Moses, they brought Him up into Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord..............34 Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, "Behold, this child "setting up"[#2749] is destined for the Falling and Rising up[#386 RESURRECTION] of many in Israel, and for a SIGN[#4592] which will be spoken against[#483] 35 yea and a sword shall pierce through thine own soul; that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed.

I have no idea how the jewish religion interprets this passage or how they view the Spirit. What about the Cross and Pentecost? Any view on this?[size=+2]
Ezekiel 37:13 And ye have known that I [am] Jehovah, In My opening your graves, And in My bringing you up out of your graves, O My people. 14 And I have given My Spirit in you, and ye have lived, And I have caused you to rest on your land, And ye have known that I Jehovah, I have spoken, and I have done [it], An affirmation of Jehovah.'
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I submit then, that what is usually promulgated as the part & parcel of Christian doctrine ... is tripe! And I do not apologize for stating my opinion! If you are offended, then remember - that is your choice. If you somehow regard as sacrosanct the notion of the blood sacrifice of Jesus at the hands (will) of a G-d who in the same breath you promote as a God of Love ... then I beg you to abandon this absurdity and seek Reason! Christ told you this, in Luke 11:11 & Matthew 7:9 - Even a man knows enough love to give his son a loaf, or a fish, if asked ... and not a stone, or a serpent. Why, then, do you bear in your hands, hearts & minds - this mistruth, venemous & hard, as it is? Do you fear to even contemplate another possibility? Sadly, it is so.
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"Blessed are you who are persecuted for my names sake." In the spirit of Christmas.. thank you for the blessing. :)
 
Jesus did not die a natural death. he laid down his life & they crucified him that we may have life & have it more abundantly.
Without Calvary, God would not have reconciled with man & there would have been no outpouring of the Holy Ghost to us, & it all would have gone right down the tubes.

that is in part how i see it:)
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I find it pretty amazing that Jesus's arch-enemy, the High Priest, even predicted that Jesus should die for the Nation. Where do you think he got that "prophecy" from? After all, God did promise a savior to the jewish Nation and the rest of Israel God had "put away".
Steve

[Young LT] John 11:48 if we may let him alone thus, all will believe in him; and the Romans will come, and will take away both our place and nation.' 49 and a certain one of them, Caiaphas, being chief priest of that year, said to them, `Ye have not known anything, 50 nor reason that it is good for us that one man may die for the people, and not the whole nation perish.' 51 And this he said not of himself, but being chief priest of that year,he did prophesy that Jesus was about to be dying for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but that also the children of God, who have been scattered abroad, he may gather together into one.

I noticed 2 different greek words used for "pierced" :confused:

John 19:34 but one of the soldiers with a spear did pierce [#3572] his side, and immediately there came forth blood and water; enuxen <3572> (5656)

3572. nusso noos'-so apparently a primary word; to prick ("nudge"):--pierce.

John 19:37 and again another Writing saith, `They shall look to him whom they did pierce [#1574].' exekenthsan <1574> (5656)

(Young) Revelation 1:7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce [#1574] him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen! exekenthsan <1574> (5656)
 
Just to state that a post by taijasi was removed by request by taijasi, just in case it looks a bit disjointed towards the end of this thread so far.
 
To be just is very good and excellent in the site of GOD. Their is no promise of any messiah by God the almighty in Holy Quran after Prophet Muhammad pbuh and to be precise The holy quran is the confirmation book of Jesus christ pbuh and the Holy bible. As said now if u read thoroughly The holy quran and as understood Jesus was not crucified nor he was killed but raised up alive along with his mother and hope so with some of the disciples to a high ground mountain where they were given refuge by GOD and they didnot reach their physically themselve as some faith masters are proclaiming but God giving them refuge, this means by God orders Angels preform that duty of picking up and landing them at safe haven as prescribed, Because the jews had planned to kill not just jesus but his entire faith troupe. But God too planned and his plan is always superior to man's plan. That's one of the reason why St. thomas was way ahead in india to preach the Gospel the original one which too was destroyed by the coming of Thomas knanaya from syria to india in the 3rd century bringing in the half completed version of Holy bible which bore the seal of Roman empire on it. So very good it is for all to take up a good history lesson before embarking on any religious journey. Thanks and i hope many would have understood what is the real fact now what i say it from holy Quran.
 
And if Jesus pbuh was not given refuge he would not have known that in his absence in Israel people their had started to worship him and they blashpheme in his name and by the peak of his age when he was about to be dying he was informed that God will cause him to die and will raise him on the day of judgement and he will clear from those blashpheme like the christians are telling him he is son of god, but because they atleast belief in his word in comparison to the jews they will be made superior to them until the day of resurrection when everybody including us will be resurrected. And then after to God we will be returned for final judgement in which he will tell us where we all differ. Until then it is better to keep our mouth shut in telling that he will return. That is where Holy Quran is way ahead if one but understands it.
 
bilalbusy said:
Hi there,
My previous post was removed from the Christian forum saying the forum is just for the Christians. The link I gave was important because it contained the material which would be of interest to a lot of Christians. Anyway the impression I get from these forums is that, they can not tolerate anything which can challenge their beliefs. Once again I would like to say that, I do not have any plans to hurt anyone's feelings and if someone take it personally, I am sorry for that. I am posting this again to know if this really hurts anyone's feelings.
I belong to the Ahmadiyya Community in Islam. We beleive that the Jesus survived the cross and died a natural death at the age of around 120. We also believe that the promised Masiah has come. We beleive that as Jesus died a natural death and can not come back, the promised Mesiah is not Jesus physically but a person who has got the attributes of Jesus Christ. We beleive Jesus to be one of the great prophets of God and beleive Prophet Muhammad (SAW) to be final in his teachings.
Bilal
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That's a lotta "we believe" you got going on there . . . any actual evidence to back up this 'belief'?
I mean there's not even any actual evidence that there ever 'was' a Jesus/Yeshua much less crucified.
 
InChristAlways said:
I find it pretty amazing that Jesus's arch-enemy, the High Priest, even predicted that Jesus should die for the Nation. Where do you think he got that "prophecy" from? After all, God did promise a savior to the jewish Nation and the rest of Israel God had "put away".
Steve

[Young LT] John 11:48 if we may let him alone thus, all will believe in him; and the Romans will come, and will take away both our place and nation.' 49 and a certain one of them, Caiaphas, being chief priest of that year, said to them, `Ye have not known anything, 50 nor reason that it is good for us that one man may die for the people, and not the whole nation perish.' 51 And this he said not of himself, but being chief priest of that year,he did prophesy that Jesus was about to be dying for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but that also the children of God, who have been scattered abroad, he may gather together into one.

I noticed 2 different greek words used for "pierced" :confused:

John 19:34 but one of the soldiers with a spear did pierce [#3572] his side, and immediately there came forth blood and water; enuxen <3572> (5656)

3572. nusso noos'-so apparently a primary word; to prick ("nudge"):--pierce.

John 19:37 and again another Writing saith, `They shall look to him whom they did pierce [#1574].' exekenthsan <1574> (5656)

(Young) Revelation 1:7 Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce [#1574] him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen! exekenthsan <1574> (5656)
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Do you think it will look like actual clouds?
 
Quran was written over 600 years after Yeshua's crucifixion, Peter's book was published in 2003.

I'd love to see anything from the Yeshua time period, anything by a writer, a poet, a record, the Roman Empire, the Jews, anything at all!
 
Etu Malku said:
Quran was written over 600 years after Yeshua's crucifixion, Peter's book was published in 2003.

I'd love to see anything from the Yeshua time period, anything by a writer, a poet, a record, the Roman Empire, the Jews, anything at all!
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Josephus doesn't count?
 
Etu Malku said:
Quran was written over 600 years after Yeshua's crucifixion, Peter's book was published in 2003.

I'd love to see anything from the Yeshua time period, anything by a writer, a poet, a record, the Roman Empire, the Jews, anything at all!
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Relating to what? Josephus is a valid reference for the First Jewish War, if not for the personhood of J-sus. Is this what you are asking for? Something proving J-sus existed? That he lived and died? That he lived on as "Issa"?

The oral tradition (something I put great store in... Homer said there was a Troy, the Haudenosaunee said they had been here for 10,000 years, the Hasidim describe the Besht -- all with no direct written proof from the time, but very probably true nonetheless) in the Hindu Kush does support the Qu'ran's version.
 
Fine, just remember, Troy was dis-believed until the 1870s, and Natives living in the Americas earlier than 3,000 years ago until the 1970s. I am not saying you are necessarily wrong, just that you really do lack the evidence to dismiss oral tradition so contemptuously.
 
Etu Malku said:
His "Testimony" was debunked ages ago
Debunking Christianity: Why Josephus’ So-called Testimonium Flavianum Must be Rejected
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That is debunking just one passage where Josephus refers to Jesus. There's also this passage, as well as a passage referring to John the Baptist.
Antiquities of the Jews Book XX, Chapter 9, verse 1 (from Project Gutenberg)
1. And now Caesar, upon hearing the death of Festus, sent Albinus into Judea, as procurator. But the king deprived Joseph of the high priesthood, and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus. Now the report goes that this eldest Ananus proved a most fortunate man; for he had five sons who had all performed the office of a high priest to God, and who had himself enjoyed that dignity a long time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high priests. But this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, 23 who are very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity [to exercise his authority]. Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa], desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrim without his consent. 24 Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest.
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As far as this part of the argument from your debunking link:
The principal internal argument against the genuineness of the Testimonium is that it says that Jesus was the Christ, whereas Josephus, as a loyal Pharisaic Jew, could hardly have written this.
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I'm sure the author of the article is aware that Josephus at first started out as a "loyal Jew," fighting against the Romans in Gallilee {of all places, ;)} but then later defected to the Romans, becoming a Full Roman Citizen.
I'm not sure how the author presumes to argue that Josephus could not have written something based upon his dubious assertion that Josephus was a "loyal Pharisaic Jew."

Here is the link to the Gutenberg source for the specific passage the author is debunking:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2848/2848-h/2848-h.htm#182HCH0003


3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, 9 those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; 10 as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.​
 
Here's Josephus on John the Baptist:

Gutenberg's Antiquities of the Jews, Book XVII, Chapter 5, verse 2
Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness. Now when [many] others came in crowds about him, for they were very greatly moved [or pleased] by hearing his words, Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, [for they seemed ready to do any thing he should advise,] thought it best, by putting him to death, to prevent any mischief he might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties, by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late. Accordingly he was sent a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious temper, to Macherus, the castle I before mentioned, and was there put to death. Now the Jews had an opinion that the destruction of this army was sent as a punishment upon Herod, and a mark of God's displeasure to him.
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My thought, when I read a text starting with "Debunking Christianity" I'll go in thinking the text might be working from an agenda. A sneaky sneaky agenda. But who knows what it could be. Sneaky texts.
 
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