The OT Prophecies Concerning Jesus
- Thread starter Dondi
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Abogado del Diablo
Ferally Decent
The longer this list gets, the more I see midrash rather than prophecy fulfillment.
Abogado del Diablo
Ferally Decent
Here's a question for everyone:
Does the truth you find in the Bible depend on proof and prophecy fulfillment?
If so, proof of what, and why?
Does the truth you find in the Bible depend on proof and prophecy fulfillment?
If so, proof of what, and why?
Dor
Bible Thumper
Abogado del Diablo said:
Since you wrote midrash instead of Midrash I am going to take it that you meant interpretation and not the Jewish commentaries.
Is that not what essentially all reading of any Holy scriptures boils down to is interpretation. People can always find a way to discount what they do not agree with they just say they interpret the things different.
Abogado del Diablo
Ferally Decent
It appears to me to be midrash in the sense that the Passion and Ressurection appears to be particular parts of the Old Testament rewritten as a new interpretive story - creating a "historicization" of prophecy (maybe unintentionally).
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Dor said:
Back in Isaiah 7, the Lord said that Ephraim, in reference to the Northern Kingdom of Israel, shall be broken within 65 years, from the date of this prophecy:
8For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
Then God gives a sign:
14Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
15Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
16For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
Then this child, who will eat butter and honey, will be shaven from head to foot and then the day wil come when the Assyrian land (and probalby the Northern kingdom of Israel), will be a barren land a thorns and briars:
20In the same day shall the Lord shave with a razor that is hired, namely, by them beyond the river, by the king of Assyria, the head, and the hair of the feet: and it shall also consume the beard.
21And it shall come to pass in that day, that a man shall nourish a young cow, and two sheep;
22And it shall come to pass, for the abundance of milk that they shall give he shall eat butter: for butter and honey shall every one eat that is left in the land.
23And it shall come to pass in that day, that every place shall be, where there were a thousand vines at a thousand silverlings, it shall even be for briers and thorns. 24With arrows and with bows shall men come thither; because all the land shall become briers and thorns.
These events happen as this child grows up and within 65 years (three score and five years). If I recall, Isaiah was written circa 700 B.C.E., so how does this child end up being a reference to the Messiah some 700 years before Christ?
This dealing with Ephraim, in the Northern Kingdon of Isarel and Assyria goes on throughout Isaiah chapters 7, 8, 9, and 10, if you read it carefully. The assyrians are driving the Northern Kingdom of Israel away from God. So both Assyria and Israel are vexing the Southern Kingdom of Judah. In the end God will not completely destroy the Kingdom of israel, but leave a remnant that will be brought back to worshipping God, after He takes care of Assyria and the rebellious people of the Kingdom of Israel. Isaiah 10:
20And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
21The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
I have yet to deal with Isaiah 9:6-7. I'll grant that this passage appears to be a reference to the Messiah. But it seems an odd place to insert these verses in the middle of God's dealing with the kingdom of Israel and Assyria. I mean, it should relate somehow to the immediate task at hand. don't you think?
I'm not trying to read into anything and give my own interpretation to these events. On the contrary, I'm trying to figure out just what is going on in these Isaiah chapters and taking everything in context. How else are we to understand the passage?
Curios Mike
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Dondi.... Does judaism use the same scriptutres as the Christians for prophecy of the messiah? If not Which Scriptures do they use?
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Curios Mike said:
Here is a list of criteria for the Messiah extracted from the Jews for Judiasm website (link at the bottom):
MESSIAH: THE CRITERIA 1
First of all, he must be Jewish – “...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you.” (Deuteronomy 17:15)
He must be a member of the tribe of Judah – “The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet...” (Genesis 49:10)
He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son – “And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever...” (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)
He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel – ”And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” (Isaiah 11:12)
He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem – “...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them..” (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)
He will rule at a time of world-wide peace – “...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.” (Micah 4:3)
He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments – “My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes.” (Ezekiel 37:24)
He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d – “And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd” (Isaiah 66:23)
All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:
And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.
If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be “The Messiah.”
Source:
1. [ http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/general_messiah-criteria02.html ]
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Also I found this listing of Messiahic scripture on this website:
http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm
Biblical Passages Referring to the Moshiach
The following passages in the Jewish scriptures are the ones that Jews consider to be messianic in nature or relating to the end of days. These are the ones that we rely upon in developing our messianic concept:
http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm
Biblical Passages Referring to the Moshiach
The following passages in the Jewish scriptures are the ones that Jews consider to be messianic in nature or relating to the end of days. These are the ones that we rely upon in developing our messianic concept:
- Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
- Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
- Ezekiel 38:16
- Hosea 3:4-3:5
- Micah 4
- Zephaniah 3:9
- Zechariah 14:9
- Daniel 10:14
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Abogado del Diablo said:
I think that depends on the individual.. I did not need prophecy fulfillment to establish my belief in the truth of it.. Others might need it.. Just like others might need the witnesses of Matthew Mark Luke and John to believe that Jesus was really there.
I find it very hard to deny the chance of fulfilling all those prophecies being like 1 in a billion or so as not truth. There will always be cynics and scoffers because people dont like change.. even the way they believe or think..
God makes Himself known to us when we already going through deep change..He's a pretty smart guy.. God.
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Faithfulservant said:
Prophecy is everything. Prophecy is God's promises coming to pass. Everything you learned about salvation is tied up in prophecy, the promise of God to save you from certain death. The fact that God has a future for us is because of what we learned from scripture. It tells us there is the redemption of our souls in His future kingdom and describes it as a place of no more tears and no more pain. So, IMO, we need to study God's word to know exactly what is going on, which is the reason I started this post, explore the claims of Christianity in light of the foretold scripture of the OT. The Jewish faith has serious contentions about Jesus being the Messiah, and I'm just trying to clarify some of the prophesies attributed to Him. One thing is for sure, either the Jews or the Christians are wrong. Doesn't this warrant a thorough investigation?
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Dondi said:
See this is new for me.. Most of CR's Jews dont do what you are doing.. discussing I didnt even realize you were Jewish because you have a cross on your avatar.. lol I thought if anything you were a Messianic Jew when I saw the Star of David.
I do not believe the Jewish people are wrong.. I believe that they are purposefully blind to Jesus being the Messiah because they are supposed to be. End time prophecies, especially Revelation, deal specifically with Gods chosen people.. and their acceptance of Christ.
Im unsure of your motives.. particulary because I know that its blasphemy to even consider Jesus as God.. If you want a sincere discussion Im happy to oblige.. If you are trying to prove us wrong.. then Im sorry Im not going to participate.
Its not about proving Jews or Christians wrong for me.. its about sharing the truth as I know it whether you accept it or not is your thing but I cannot be swayed from my belief.
As far as investigations go.. this is an old one
B
Bandit
Guest
Dondi said:
Dondi, I feel the jews & christians are both right about things. i feel they are also both wrong about things.
maybe we can do some investigating & find out where they both are right & where they both are wrong.
i dont think any one organized religion is without error somewhere.
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Faithfulservant said:See this is new for me.. Most of CR's Jews dont do what you are doing.. discussing I didnt even realize you were Jewish because you have a cross on your avatar.. lol I thought if anything you were a Messianic Jew when I saw the Star of David.
I do not believe the Jewish people are wrong.. I believe that they are purposefully blind to Jesus being the Messiah because they are supposed to be. End time prophecies, especially Revelation, deal specifically with Gods chosen people.. and their acceptance of Christ.
Im unsure of your motives.. particulary because I know that its blasphemy to even consider Jesus as God.. If you want a sincere discussion Im happy to oblige.. If you are trying to prove us wrong.. then Im sorry Im not going to participate.
Its not about proving Jews or Christians wrong for me.. its about sharing the truth as I know it whether you accept it or not is your thing but I cannot be swayed from my belief.
As far as investigations go.. this is an old one
I'm not Jewish. I am a seeking Christian who has decided to be a Berean (Acts 17:10-11) to see if these things are so. I am seeking confirmation on the prophecies of the Messiah and am finding some apparent inconsistancies in the New Testament use of the Old Testament scriptures to support the claims that Jesus is the Messiah. Further, since the earlier followers of Christ were Jewish, I want to immerse myself into the Jewish faith in order to gain a proper perspective of my Christian heritage. Hence the dual avatar of the cross inside the Star of David. I suppose I'm doing the opposite approach of a Messianic Jew.
Furthermore, I'm not here to dissuade anyone from their beliefs. I am here for clarity of the scriptures and wish to challege these prophesies from both sides. To be honest, I would that both Jews and Christians are right. But these questions are on my mind and I just can't easily dismiss them. I have to take the whole counsel of the Word as my guide. I hope this is appropiate in this forum.
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Yes I know berean.. I consider myself an apologist or a faith defender.
Of course.. God gave us minds to think with so He doesnt expect us to just blindly follow Him.. He expects us to ask questions. I myself have had too many questions to list and have found He answers them with prayer and bible study and an occasional fast.
I respect your method of learning scriptural truth.. I went the way of backsliding to a degree that I lost my faith while I was searching in the wrong direction.. So as long as you keep your mind on God.. listen to the Spirit He is here to teach us.. and by all means lets discuss truth in whatever context we find it.
My fiance Dor he's been attempting a discussion with you about one of the prophecies you have a problem with so Im not stepping on his toes.. I will be waiting for my turn, however.
Of course.. God gave us minds to think with so He doesnt expect us to just blindly follow Him.. He expects us to ask questions. I myself have had too many questions to list and have found He answers them with prayer and bible study and an occasional fast.
I respect your method of learning scriptural truth.. I went the way of backsliding to a degree that I lost my faith while I was searching in the wrong direction.. So as long as you keep your mind on God.. listen to the Spirit He is here to teach us.. and by all means lets discuss truth in whatever context we find it.
My fiance Dor he's been attempting a discussion with you about one of the prophecies you have a problem with so Im not stepping on his toes.. I will be waiting for my turn, however.
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Faithfulservant said:
Sound advice. It reminds me that God makes Himself known by the most important methods: His Spirit and His Word.
"Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts." - Zechariah 4:6
"Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path." - Psalm 119:105
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Faithfulservant said:My fiance Dor he's been attempting a discussion with you about one of the prophecies you have a problem with so Im not stepping on his toes.. I will be waiting for my turn, however.
Ah, yes. I guess we got kind of side tracked. But that's ok, we learn alot when we go off in tangents.
I wait patiently for Dor's response to the my last post on the prophecy in question, which I'll repeat here:
Back in Isaiah 7, the Lord said that Ephraim, in reference to the Northern Kingdom of Israel, shall be broken within 65 years, from the date of this prophecy:
8For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
Then God gives a sign:
14Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
15Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
16For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
Then this child, who will eat butter and honey, will be shaven from head to foot and then the day wil come when the Assyrian land (and probalby the Northern kingdom of Israel), will be a barren land a thorns and briars:
20In the same day shall the Lord shave with a razor that is hired, namely, by them beyond the river, by the king of Assyria, the head, and the hair of the feet: and it shall also consume the beard.
21And it shall come to pass in that day, that a man shall nourish a young cow, and two sheep;
22And it shall come to pass, for the abundance of milk that they shall give he shall eat butter: for butter and honey shall every one eat that is left in the land.
23And it shall come to pass in that day, that every place shall be, where there were a thousand vines at a thousand silverlings, it shall even be for briers and thorns. 24With arrows and with bows shall men come thither; because all the land shall become briers and thorns.
These events happen as this child grows up and within 65 years (three score and five years). If I recall, Isaiah was written circa 700 B.C.E., so how does this child end up being a reference to the Messiah some 700 years before Christ?
This dealing with Ephraim, in the Northern Kingdon of Isarel and Assyria goes on throughout Isaiah chapters 7, 8, 9, and 10, if you read it carefully. The assyrians are driving the Northern Kingdom of Israel away from God. So both Assyria and Israel are vexing the Southern Kingdom of Judah. In the end God will not completely destroy the Kingdom of israel, but leave a remnant that will be brought back to worshipping God, after He takes care of Assyria and the rebellious people of the Kingdom of Israel. Isaiah 10:
20And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
21The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
I have yet to deal with Isaiah 9:6-7. I'll grant that this passage appears to be a reference to the Messiah. But it seems an odd place to insert these verses in the middle of God's dealing with the kingdom of Israel and Assyria. I mean, it should relate somehow to the immediate task at hand. don't you think?
I'm not trying to read into anything and give my own interpretation to these events. On the contrary, I'm trying to figure out just what is going on in these Isaiah chapters and taking everything in context. How else are we to understand the passage?
Dor
Bible Thumper
Well had a long ole post done and lost it so Im gonna try to do it again.
Isa 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.(KJV)
Isa 7:10 Moreover the LORD spoke again unto Ahaz, saying,(KJV)
So we can see that there was more than one prophecy.
Ahaz basically blew off the Lord and quoted the Bible doing so when he was told to ask for a sign.
So the Lord gave a sign not to Ahaz but to the House of David.
Ahaz' failure to exercise his royalty in line with Davidic mandates of loyalty and trust, God will step in to provide a TRUE Davidic king, Immanuel. This king will appear AFTER the consequences of the failure of Ahaz.
Verses 17-25 were a sign of judgement not deliverence. And the child was to come after that judgement.
The verses offer no textual reason to assume the child in 8:3 was linked to Immanuel in fact they differ in virtually every detail.
1. Different names.
2. Immanuel's name is positive and encouraging; Maher-shalal-hash-baz (i.e. "quick to the plunder, quick to the spoil") is ominous.
3. The mother to Immanuel was an unknown virgin and father was not even mentioned while the other was Isaiah and his wife.
4. Immanuel is keyed to a moral or dietary spec; Maher is keyed to linguistic ability.
5. Immanuel is linked to large destruction of the land while the other just to Damascus and Samaria.
6. Immanuel is a descendant of the house of David while Maher was a descendant of Isaiah which was not.
Even some historical non-messianic prophecies often reach beyond the lifetime of the person they are addressed to. Even the one in this chapter were Ahaz is told that within 65 years Ephraim would be to broken to even be a people did not come to pass in his lifetime. Prophecy is often a process not always simply an event.
Isa 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.(KJV)
Isa 7:10 Moreover the LORD spoke again unto Ahaz, saying,(KJV)
So we can see that there was more than one prophecy.
Ahaz basically blew off the Lord and quoted the Bible doing so when he was told to ask for a sign.
So the Lord gave a sign not to Ahaz but to the House of David.
Ahaz' failure to exercise his royalty in line with Davidic mandates of loyalty and trust, God will step in to provide a TRUE Davidic king, Immanuel. This king will appear AFTER the consequences of the failure of Ahaz.
Verses 17-25 were a sign of judgement not deliverence. And the child was to come after that judgement.
The verses offer no textual reason to assume the child in 8:3 was linked to Immanuel in fact they differ in virtually every detail.
1. Different names.
2. Immanuel's name is positive and encouraging; Maher-shalal-hash-baz (i.e. "quick to the plunder, quick to the spoil") is ominous.
3. The mother to Immanuel was an unknown virgin and father was not even mentioned while the other was Isaiah and his wife.
4. Immanuel is keyed to a moral or dietary spec; Maher is keyed to linguistic ability.
5. Immanuel is linked to large destruction of the land while the other just to Damascus and Samaria.
6. Immanuel is a descendant of the house of David while Maher was a descendant of Isaiah which was not.
Even some historical non-messianic prophecies often reach beyond the lifetime of the person they are addressed to. Even the one in this chapter were Ahaz is told that within 65 years Ephraim would be to broken to even be a people did not come to pass in his lifetime. Prophecy is often a process not always simply an event.
B
Bandit
Guest
Dor said:
very nice. i did not realize others here saw that the same way i do.
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Dor said:
"Prophecy is often a process not always simply an event."
Good point. I agree that some prophecies take a long time to come to pass. Noah spent 120 years building the Ark, after all.
OK, I'm not confusing Maher with Immanuel anymore, thank you for clearing that up. But I am assuming that this judgement came to pass within 65 years, right? Probably after Ahaz had passed on. But what does vs 16 mean,
"For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings."
Does this mean that a child was born during this 65 year period of time until the land was forsaken by both kings? Or how should we take this verse? Are we to assume that this prophecy has a duel purpose (i.e., related to the time it was given as well as a future messianic event)? If so, how does one determine if a particular prophecy has a dual purpose?