The OT Prophecies Concerning Jesus

[InChristAlways]

Inspired by God, his writings come to pass, but then, they speak of a final fulfillment of the prophecy at the end time, before Jesus' return.

Other passages warned the Israelites of the time, and have the same warning for us in the modern day. That is what I mean by dual fulfillment. These "prophesies" can be applied today as they were yesteryear...with the same results if not heeded.

And it must occur that everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe Joel 2;32

(Acts 2:21) And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved."’

(Romans 10:13) For "everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.

(Acts 2:17) ‘"And in the last days," God says, "I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will prophesy and YOUR young men will see visions and YOUR old men will dream dreams............. we are now in the last days

Daniel gives the same prophecy and I look at the "Book" as those who do call on the name of the Lord, and in Christianity that is the Name of Jesus the Christ. I had felt this may have been the first century [Olivet Discourse] but it could also be future for either Daniel's people or a "type" of his people.

Daniel 12:1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, [Even] to that time. And at that time your people shall be saved, Every one who is found written in the book.

(Young) Matthew 23:39 for I say to you, ye may not see me henceforth, till ye may say, Blessed [is] he who is coming in the name of the Lord.'

 

[chokmah]

Against, for, or in comparrison to?

Negation, in general.

I can share why said prophesy is either not Messianic or how Jesus did not fulfill it.

And would you be interested in hearing a potential rebuttal, or debate?

v/r

Q

I pretty much get that all the time where I spend my time elsewhere (christianforums).

 

[Quahom1]

Negation, in general.

I can share why said prophesy is either not Messianic or how Jesus did not fulfill it.



I pretty much get that all the time where I spend my time elsewhere (christianforums).

Show me the goods...

v/r

Q

 

[chokmah]

Genesis 3:15 is not a messianic passage.

Genesis 3
15. And I shall place hatred between you and between the woman, and between your seed and between her seed. He will crush your head, and you will bite his heel."

Eve does not have a superhuman seed; nor is her seed any different from that of any other mother.

The same phrase is used with regards to Hagar and to Sarah. Furthermore, the word "seed" also can be translated as "offspring".

 

[Curios Mike]

Yeh but Marry being a seed of Eve would make her a good candidate for having Jesus (another seed), Who the said prophecy may be about. Just a thought, I"ll let someone with a lil more Prophecy expereince to explian why this may be.

 

[chokmah]

Yeh but Marry being a seed of Eve would make her a good candidate for having Jesus (another seed), Who the said prophecy may be about. Just a thought, I"ll let someone with a lil more Prophecy expereince to explian why this may be.

Just for reiteration: "seed" is equivalent to "offspring" as far as English translations of the Hebrew word. Therefore, Genesis 3:15 is a statement about all of mankind; not just one person in particular.

Couple key points to keep in mind:

In Judaism...

1) There is no original sin.
2) One is not in bondage to sin.
3) There are two "yetzers"; yetzer hara (Evil/Bad Inclination) and yetzer tov (Good Inclination).
4) There is no need for a mediator between man and G-d.
5) There is no substitutionary atonement.

These (and many others) are the baseline considerations that come into play as the context to help us determine whether this passage is actually Messianic or not.

 

[Quahom1]

Genesis 3:15 is not a messianic passage.

Genesis 3
15. And I shall place hatred between you and between the woman, and between your seed and between her seed. He will crush your head, and you will bite his heel."

Eve does not have a superhuman seed; nor is her seed any different from that of any other mother.

The same phrase is used with regards to Hagar and to Sarah. Furthermore, the word "seed" also can be translated as "offspring".

Obviously the term "seed" does mean offspring. Question is, who's seed is the serpent's? Also, a crushed skull is alot more devistating than a bitten heel (in the onslaught). Crushed skull implies immediate death, wherein bitten heel implies wound or slower death...

And why is God addressing a "snake"? Of all animals on earth, what does a snake have that the rest of earth's animals do not? Sentience? Or is this a metaphor?

Either it is actual, or symbolic, or metaphorical, or something else we haven't identified...

There, I'm making good on my word. Your turn.

v/r

Q

 

[Curios Mike]

Heres a big definition on the actual word from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words.

The Verb:

TO SOW
zara` OT:2232, "to sow, scatter seed, make pregnant." Common throughout the history of the Hebrew language, this root is found in various Semitic languages, including ancient Akkadian. The verb is found approximately 60 times in the Hebrew Old Testament. It occurs first in Gen 1:29 in the summary of the blessings of creation which God has given to mankind: "...in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed...."
In an agricultural society such as ancient Israel, zara` would be most important and very commonly used, especially to describe the annual sowing of crops Judg 6:3; Gen 26:12. Used in the figurative sense, it is said that Yahweh "will sow" Israel in the land Hos 2:23; in the latter days, Yahweh promises: "...I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast" Jer 31:27. Of great continuing comfort are the words, "They that sow in tears shall reap in joy" Ps 126:5. The universal law of the harvest, sowing and reaping, applies to all areas of life and experience.

A good example of the need for free translation of the inherent meaning rather than a strictly literal rendering involves zara`, in both its verb and noun forms. This is found in Num 5, which describes the law of trial by ordeal in the case of a wife accused of infidelity. If she was found innocent, it was declared: "...she shall be free, and shall conceive [zara] seed [zera`]" Num 5:28. This phrase is literally: "She shall be acquitted and shall be seeded seed," or "She shall be made pregnant with seed."

An Old Testament name, Jezreel, has been connected with this root. Jezreel ("God sows") refers both to a city and valley near Mt. Gilboa Josh 17:16; 2 Sam 2:9 and to the symbolically named son of Hosea Hos 1:4.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)


Partial def of the noun (I'll add rest if you would like but its pretty long):

TO SOW
Zera` sometimes means "semen," or a man's "seed": "And if any man's seed of copulation go out from him [if he has a seminal emission]..." Lev 15:16. A beast's "semen" can also be indicated by this word Jer 31:27. Zera` often means "offspring." Only rarely is this nuance applied to animals: "And I will put enmity between thee [the devil] and the woman [Eve], and between thy seed and her seed..." Gen 3:15. This verse uses the word in several senses. The first appearance means both the descendants of the snake and those of the spiritual being who used the snake (evil men). The second appearance of the word refers to all the descendants of the woman and ultimately to a particular descendant (Christ). In Gen 4:25 zera` appears not as a collective noun but refers to a particular and immediate "offspring"; upon the birth of Seth, Eve said: "God... hath appointed me another seed [offspring]...." Gen 46:6 uses the word (in the singular) of one's entire family including children and grandchildren (cf. Gen 17:12). One's larger family, including all immediate relatives, is included in the word in passages such as 1 Kings 11:14. The word is used of an entire nation of people in Est 10:3.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)


But puttin this So called Prophecy aside: What Do you Make of Isaiah 53?

 

[Quahom1]

Heres a big definition on the actual word from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words.

The Verb:

TO SOW
zara` OT:2232, "to sow, scatter seed, make pregnant." Common throughout the history of the Hebrew language, this root is found in various Semitic languages, including ancient Akkadian. The verb is found approximately 60 times in the Hebrew Old Testament. It occurs first in Gen 1:29 in the summary of the blessings of creation which God has given to mankind: "...in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed...."
In an agricultural society such as ancient Israel, zara` would be most important and very commonly used, especially to describe the annual sowing of crops Judg 6:3; Gen 26:12. Used in the figurative sense, it is said that Yahweh "will sow" Israel in the land Hos 2:23; in the latter days, Yahweh promises: "...I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast" Jer 31:27. Of great continuing comfort are the words, "They that sow in tears shall reap in joy" Ps 126:5. The universal law of the harvest, sowing and reaping, applies to all areas of life and experience.

A good example of the need for free translation of the inherent meaning rather than a strictly literal rendering involves zara`, in both its verb and noun forms. This is found in Num 5, which describes the law of trial by ordeal in the case of a wife accused of infidelity. If she was found innocent, it was declared: "...she shall be free, and shall conceive [zara] seed [zera`]" Num 5:28. This phrase is literally: "She shall be acquitted and shall be seeded seed," or "She shall be made pregnant with seed."

An Old Testament name, Jezreel, has been connected with this root. Jezreel ("God sows") refers both to a city and valley near Mt. Gilboa Josh 17:16; 2 Sam 2:9 and to the symbolically named son of Hosea Hos 1:4.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)


Partial def of the noun (I'll add rest if you would like but its pretty long):

TO SOW
Zera` sometimes means "semen," or a man's "seed": "And if any man's seed of copulation go out from him [if he has a seminal emission]..." Lev 15:16. A beast's "semen" can also be indicated by this word Jer 31:27. Zera` often means "offspring." Only rarely is this nuance applied to animals: "And I will put enmity between thee [the devil] and the woman [Eve], and between thy seed and her seed..." Gen 3:15. This verse uses the word in several senses. The first appearance means both the descendants of the snake and those of the spiritual being who used the snake (evil men). The second appearance of the word refers to all the descendants of the woman and ultimately to a particular descendant (Christ). In Gen 4:25 zera` appears not as a collective noun but refers to a particular and immediate "offspring"; upon the birth of Seth, Eve said: "God... hath appointed me another seed [offspring]...." Gen 46:6 uses the word (in the singular) of one's entire family including children and grandchildren (cf. Gen 17:12). One's larger family, including all immediate relatives, is included in the word in passages such as 1 Kings 11:14. The word is used of an entire nation of people in Est 10:3.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)


But puttin this So called Prophecy aside: What Do you Make of Isaiah 53?

In light of this thread, I can't. I would not know who this person is. He certainly does not sound like a King, nor does he appear to be able to save the world. He can't even save himself!

But, you cut the passage short my friend. It should have started with Isiaiah 52...then we know that a master is describing a servant of worth, and fortitude. The very fact that a "master" is holding his "servant" in such high esteem is a confusing concept. It is almost as if the master is decreeing that the the servant will supercede him...why? How? and who would place a servant above himself?

Must provide the whole of the scripture in order to get the whole picture...

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

 

[chokmah]

Obviously the term "seed" does mean offspring. Question is, who's seed is the serpent's? Also, a crushed skull is alot more devistating than a bitten heel (in the onslaught). Crushed skull implies immediate death, wherein bitten heel implies wound or slower death...

And why is God addressing a "snake"? Of all animals on earth, what does a snake have that the rest of earth's animals do not? Sentience? Or is this a metaphor?

Either it is actual, or symbolic, or metaphorical, or something else we haven't identified...

There, I'm making good on my word. Your turn.

v/r

Q

While I believe in fiat creation, I also believe that a great deal of Genesis 1-3 is metaphorical.

There are many different traditions and commentaries regarding the interaction between Adam, Eve, the snake, and G-d. The one that I follow takes a metaphorical approach. The snake represents the yetzer hara (Evil Inclination).

Does that help?

 

[chokmah]

Heres a big definition on the actual word from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words.

The Verb:

TO SOW
zara` OT:2232, "to sow, scatter seed, make pregnant." Common throughout the history of the Hebrew language, this root is found in various Semitic languages, including ancient Akkadian. The verb is found approximately 60 times in the Hebrew Old Testament. It occurs first in Gen 1:29 in the summary of the blessings of creation which God has given to mankind: "...in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed...."
In an agricultural society such as ancient Israel, zara` would be most important and very commonly used, especially to describe the annual sowing of crops Judg 6:3; Gen 26:12. Used in the figurative sense, it is said that Yahweh "will sow" Israel in the land Hos 2:23; in the latter days, Yahweh promises: "...I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast" Jer 31:27. Of great continuing comfort are the words, "They that sow in tears shall reap in joy" Ps 126:5. The universal law of the harvest, sowing and reaping, applies to all areas of life and experience.

A good example of the need for free translation of the inherent meaning rather than a strictly literal rendering involves zara`, in both its verb and noun forms. This is found in Num 5, which describes the law of trial by ordeal in the case of a wife accused of infidelity. If she was found innocent, it was declared: "...she shall be free, and shall conceive [zara] seed [zera`]" Num 5:28. This phrase is literally: "She shall be acquitted and shall be seeded seed," or "She shall be made pregnant with seed."

An Old Testament name, Jezreel, has been connected with this root. Jezreel ("God sows") refers both to a city and valley near Mt. Gilboa Josh 17:16; 2 Sam 2:9 and to the symbolically named son of Hosea Hos 1:4.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)


Partial def of the noun (I'll add rest if you would like but its pretty long):

TO SOW
Zera` sometimes means "semen," or a man's "seed": "And if any man's seed of copulation go out from him [if he has a seminal emission]..." Lev 15:16. A beast's "semen" can also be indicated by this word Jer 31:27. Zera` often means "offspring." Only rarely is this nuance applied to animals: "And I will put enmity between thee [the devil] and the woman [Eve], and between thy seed and her seed..." Gen 3:15. This verse uses the word in several senses. The first appearance means both the descendants of the snake and those of the spiritual being who used the snake (evil men). The second appearance of the word refers to all the descendants of the woman and ultimately to a particular descendant (Christ). In Gen 4:25 zera` appears not as a collective noun but refers to a particular and immediate "offspring"; upon the birth of Seth, Eve said: "God... hath appointed me another seed [offspring]...." Gen 46:6 uses the word (in the singular) of one's entire family including children and grandchildren (cf. Gen 17:12). One's larger family, including all immediate relatives, is included in the word in passages such as 1 Kings 11:14. The word is used of an entire nation of people in Est 10:3.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

Vine's obviously presents an ideal that is foreign to Judaism.

But puttin this So called Prophecy aside: What Do you Make of Isaiah 53?

The "Suffering Servant" is Israel.

 

[chokmah]

In light of this thread, I can't. I would not know who this person is. He certainly does not sound like a King, nor does he appear to be able to save the world. He can't even save himself!

But, you cut the passage short my friend. It should have started with Isiaiah 52...then we know that a master is describing a servant of worth, and fortitude. The very fact that a "master" is holding his "servant" in such high esteem is a confusing concept. It is almost as if the master is decreeing that the the servant will supercede him...why? How? and who would place a servant above himself?

Must provide the whole of the scripture in order to get the whole picture...

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

I couldn't agree more with the emboldened. The contextual considerations of "servant" spans all of Isaiah and even comes into play elsewhere (i.e. Jeremiah). In each instance, the Servant is Israel/Jacob.

 

[Curios Mike]

There are many different traditions and commentaries regarding the interaction between Adam, Eve, the snake, and G-d. The one that I follow takes a metaphorical approach. The snake represents the yetzer hara (Evil Inclination)

So does Judaism teach their is no such thing as Satan? And a question away from discussion.... How Come every one Puts G-d or G!d instead of God?

And yes you two are correct starting in chapter 52 of Isaiah? I can see why you would say Isreal... But Is Isreal The Messiah? I thought that even Judaism Recognized these also as a prophetic scripture of a Messiah? IF not... What Scriptures do Judaism Recognize as Messianic?

 

[chokmah]

So does Judaism teach their is no such thing as Satan?

I believe that the traditional Judaic view of "Satan" is that HaSatan is the actual transliteration of the Hebrew. HaSatan means "the Adversary". It is a title instead of an actual person. Therefore, Judaism teaches that there is HaSatan (the Adversary), but he/she/it can take many forms and is not a correlary to the Christian concept. Furthermore, should HaSatan be an angelic being - it is an agent of G-d always.

And a question away from discussion.... How Come every one Puts G-d or G!d instead of God?

Here's a good summation:

www.jewfaq.org/name.htm

And yes you two are correct starting in chapter 52 of Isaiah? I can see why you would say Isreal... But Is Isreal The Messiah? I thought that even Judaism Recognized these also as a prophetic scripture of a Messiah? IF not... What Scriptures do Judaism Recognize as Messianic?

In the most basic interpretational considerations of the Suffering Servant passage, it is not considered Messianic. However, one can allegorize or moralize a passage to make anything out of it. In this particular thread, it's the former we're discussing and not the latter.

Here is a synopsis of some major Messianic verses/passages in the Tanakh:

Messianic Criteria

First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)
He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)

He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)

He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)

He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)

He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)

He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)

He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)

Note: not one criterium for the Jewish Messiah is to be the "Saviour of the World".

 

[Quahom1]

chokmah says:

I believe that the traditional Judaic view of "Satan" is that HaSatan is the actual transliteration of the Hebrew. HaSatan means "the Adversary". It is a title instead of an actual person. Therefore, Judaism teaches that there is HaSatan (the Adversary), but he/she/it can take many forms and is not a correlary to the Christian concept. Furthermore, should HaSatan be an angelic being - it is an agent of G-d always.

Angels fell, the Pentatuch says as much.

In the most basic interpretational considerations of the Suffering Servant passage, it is not considered Messianic. However, one can allegorize or moralize a passage to make anything out of it. In this particular thread, it's the former we're discussing and not the latter.

You are correct, anyone can make anything out something if they wish it. One says the passages are not messianic, and another thinks differently.

Note: not one criterium for the Jewish Messiah is to be the "Saviour of the World".

Again you are correct. He was originally here to save the Jews.

v/r

Q

 

[wil]

How Come every one Puts G-d or G!d instead of God?

There exists the concept, someone else could provide historical reasoning, that His name is not spoken nor read. Hence you'll see JHVH, YHWH without the vowels...

It follows that any utterance creates a definition in your head and by nature 'defines'/limits that which is limitless, makes the infinite less etc. Much as the Hindu have such a variety of gods all depicting various aspects of the one Krishna, one interpretation is not enough...so no word written or spoken as reference.

And for me, it is appropriate, as when one says G!d for years that Sunday School image made in man's likeness, immortalized on ceilings, came into my head...the larger than life anthropomorphic entity which was actively keeping a list of every soul and thier indiscrestions so that it could be at their fingertips when I reached the pearly gates and as the reviewed they pointed over to the slide....

 

[Quahom1]

There exists the concept, someone else could provide historical reasoning, that His name is not spoken nor read. Hence you'll see JHVH, YHWH without the vowels...

Ancient Hebrew has no vowels, nor "niqqud". Since the Letters YHWH (יהוה )have no dipthongs attached, the name could not be spoken (literally). It obviously was read, just not spoken.

v/r

Q

 

[chokmah]

Angels fell, the Pentatuch says as much.

Actually, no, it doesn't (according to a translation from the Hebrew).

Genesis 6
1. And it came to pass when man commenced to multiply upon the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them.


2. That the sons of the nobles saw the daughters of man when they were beautifying themselves, and they took for themselves wives from whomever they chose.


The story behind the Nephillim (and their creation) is open to many interpretations. The "falling angels" happens to be one of many. Unequivocally, in Judaism, angels do not have free will.

You are correct, anyone can make anything out something if they wish it. One says the passages are not messianic, and another thinks differently.

Your statement is not quite synonymous with what I shared above. I was discussing the four levels of interpretation in Judaism: PRDS (pshat, remez, drash, sod). There is a unified consideration amongst conservative/orthodox Judaism that the Suffering Servant passage is not Messianic in the pshat sense. It's in the Drash consideration that one can allegorize Messianic considerations and some have even tied this to Moses, Joshua, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Hezekiah, Josiah... and so on. The point of Drash is to get a "moral"; not a literal consideration.

Again you are correct. He was originally here to save the Jews.

v/r

Q

Actually, Q, it's not a matter of "salvation" either; unless you mean something other than Christianity's consideration of atonement.

 

[chokmah]

And for me, it is appropriate, as when one says G!d for years that Sunday School image made in man's likeness, immortalized on ceilings, came into my head...the larger than life anthropomorphic entity which was actively keeping a list of every soul and thier indiscrestions so that it could be at their fingertips when I reached the pearly gates and as the reviewed they pointed over to the slide....

The emboldened is a whole other ball of wax to talk about in Judaism. It's completely reshaped my considerations of G-d as I have learned it.

 

[chokmah]

Ancient Hebrew has no vowels, nor "niqqud". Since the Letters YHWH (יהוה )have no dipthongs attached, the name could not be spoken (literally). It obviously was read, just not spoken.

v/r

Q

I have been told by many Jews that the tetragrammaton was pronounced at one time, and may still be pronounced in some circles. What led you to believe that it has never been spoken or couldn't be?