the Bible from a Jehovah's Witness perspective

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oh ya i agree with no need to argue, however i would say this is a discussion, because the more a jw responds back, the more confusing it sounds, so i have more questions. to get an answer i am putting my belief out there and why, giving some history of jw as i know it and asking jw for a response back on their take on it. of course i never got any specific response back regarding prophetic and fulfillment scriptures i posted that lead to my question, but thats ok, since you called it a debate and totally went around or avoided the scriptures i posted, i wont ask anymore.
 
Ask the questions, Blaze...debating the answers is a place not to go. This is the JW's perspective.

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Michael means "Who Is Like God?" The name evidently designates Michael as the one who takes the lead in upholding Jehovah’s sovereignty and destroying God’s enemies .it was michael who cleaned the heavenly goverment of the rebels , this is spoken of in revelation 12; 7-9

And war broke out in heaven: Mi´cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. ..... this war broke out in 1914 when Jesus was made king of Gods kingdom, he no longer wanted rebellious angels in the kingdom goverment so out they went ,no longer did they have access into the heavens , before 1914 they had access to the heavens and the earth ,but after 1914 and the war in heaven , they were cast out of the heavens for good ,that is why since 1914 we are seeing an increase in all of the signs that Jesus mentioned . war, earthquakes ,famine , increase in crime, critical times hard to deal with all happening as a composite sign , but inamongst this sign , one of the signs Jesus spoke of ,involved Good news rather than bad news
And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come . matthew 24;14...yes this is Good news indeed ,because it is the news that Jesus kingdom has been established in the heavens, and soon Jesus will destroy the wicked for Good , and Satan knows this, thats why he knows he has a short period of time left to coarse problems on the earth

On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time. revelation 12;12....yes the bible indicates that micheal is non other than Jesus christ himself.
 
BlaznFattyz said:
oh ya i agree with no need to argue, however i would say this is a discussion, because the more a jw responds back, the more confusing it sounds, so i have more questions. to get an answer i am putting my belief out there and why, giving some history of jw as i know it and asking jw for a response back on their take on it. of course i never got any specific response back regarding prophetic and fulfillment scriptures i posted that lead to my question, but thats ok, since you called it a debate and totally went around or avoided the scriptures i posted, i wont ask anymore.
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If I can, I'd have to agree and disagree. It's really hard to be able to relate to JW if you believe Jesus is God. That is where the split is. I am no longer JW, and even through careful study I don't see where Jesus proclaims he is the Almighty Father or where the Almighty Father proclaims to be Jesus. Please excuse me because I have had this discussion before, but for me if one is the other then it should be vise versa - but the thought that Jesus is God brings comfort to many and I think for that reason it is okay. The problem that I have with JW is the claim that it is the only true religion and everything else is false teaching and that Jehovah sees no one but them - but I also have that problem with Church of Christ. I guess no Christian faith can proclaim itself as a religion unless it's shooting down every other Christian faith and saying that it alone holds the absolute truth.

And I have to say that this often turns into a debate because although JW may call itself Christian, it seeks to become a completely different Christian entity than Christianity as we know it. JW says it is Christian and yet it separates itself from the rest of the Christian world and calls it false teaching. I'm not saying this is wrong - whatever. But this is another division in Christianity for those of us who seek to unify Christianity through understanding. JW doesn't want to understand the Christian world because it has separated itself from it. The only thing you can do is understand them. I agree that understanding the bible is progressive. How ever you see the world today, you will find evidence to back it up in the Bible. JW believe we are living in the last days of Satan's rule over the earth. They believe in The Revelation literally. So considering how the world has changed and will change for The Ultimate Battle very soon, they see the language of their Bible to be fitting for this event.

Though Christianity appears to be divided at this time, we are a complete body in faith. I wonder if I'll be around when this thing really fires up. Just think - all this bickering that Christians do, kinda like one big disfunctional family; and it will be interesting to see how all of those divisions who believe will come together to create the body of Christ - the whole armour of God. (Ephesians 6)
 
truthseeker said:
If I can, I'd have to agree and disagree. It's really hard to be able to relate to JW if you believe Jesus is God. That is where the split is. I am no longer JW, and even through careful study I don't see where Jesus proclaims he is the Almighty Father or where the Almighty Father proclaims to be Jesus. Please excuse me because I have had this discussion before, but for me if one is the other then it should be vise versa - but the thought that Jesus is God brings comfort to many and I think for that reason it is okay. The problem that I have with JW is the claim that it is the only true religion and everything else is false teaching and that Jehovah sees no one but them - but I also have that problem with Church of Christ. I guess no Christian faith can proclaim itself as a religion unless it's shooting down every other Christian faith and saying that it alone holds the absolute truth.

And I have to say that this often turns into a debate because although JW may call itself Christian, it seeks to become a completely different Christian entity than Christianity as we know it. JW says it is Christian and yet it separates itself from the rest of the Christian world and calls it false teaching. I'm not saying this is wrong - whatever. But this is another division in Christianity for those of us who seek to unify Christianity through understanding. JW doesn't want to understand the Christian world because it has separated itself from it. The only thing you can do is understand them. I agree that understanding the bible is progressive. How ever you see the world today, you will find evidence to back it up in the Bible. JW believe we are living in the last days of Satan's rule over the earth. They believe in The Revelation literally. So considering how the world has changed and will change for The Ultimate Battle very soon, they see the language of their Bible to be fitting for this event.

Though Christianity appears to be divided at this time, we are a complete body in faith. I wonder if I'll be around when this thing really fires up. Just think - all this bickering that Christians do, kinda like one big disfunctional family; and it will be interesting to see how all of those divisions who believe will come together to create the body of Christ - the whole armour of God. (Ephesians 6)
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yah. but it is not just the JW that say they are the only right religion. every christian religion on the market sends all the other christian religions to hell & claims to be the only true religion, though not every person or pastor in their chosen relgion is that way. the two denominations that i have come across that do not do that is the Christian Science & Episcopal.

i have watched it go on for almost 40 years in my home town, churches speaking ill about the other churches bringing divisions & false accusations is one thing we are taught not to do in the scriptures.

i really dont see these religions coming together because it has been inbred into peoples thinking, though some people will step out of their traditions over time to come together with those who are willing to put aside doctrinal issues. i think these divisions have been provoked by organized religion for 2000 years due to a false sense of security induced by the leaderships & it takes devastation & desolation to bring them together.

people have been fighting over the godhead & how Jesus fits into that forever & i dont see that changing either, except for the few who do not make issues over it & can speak to each other with a respectful attitude & understand that one persons beliefs are just as strong as anothers.
i see & feel a lot of anxiety & apprehensive behavior in religion that brings pain & it can not be coming from Jesus, or at least that is what i think.
From the scriptures- I do not see Jesus IS God, but rather I see Jesus AS God & that is probably why i can relate to the JW on that.

i see partial truths in them all without joining any of them & for what? just to be excommunicated if you have a different view.

just thinking out loud Truthseeker, because you have a good way of bringing out some of my inner feelings when i read your posts & thanks for listening:) .
 
truthseeker said:
If I can, I'd have to agree and disagree. It's really hard to be able to relate to JW if you believe Jesus is God. That is where the split is. I am no longer JW, and even through careful study I don't see where Jesus proclaims he is the Almighty Father or where the Almighty Father proclaims to be Jesus. Please excuse me because I have had this discussion before, but for me if one is the other then it should be vise versa - but the thought that Jesus is God brings comfort to many and I think for that reason it is okay. The problem that I have with JW is the claim that it is the only true religion and everything else is false teaching and that Jehovah sees no one but them - but I also have that problem with Church of Christ. I guess no Christian faith can proclaim itself as a religion unless it's shooting down every other Christian faith and saying that it alone holds the absolute truth.

And I have to say that this often turns into a debate because although JW may call itself Christian, it seeks to become a completely different Christian entity than Christianity as we know it. JW says it is Christian and yet it separates itself from the rest of the Christian world and calls it false teaching. I'm not saying this is wrong - whatever. But this is another division in Christianity for those of us who seek to unify Christianity through understanding. JW doesn't want to understand the Christian world because it has separated itself from it. The only thing you can do is understand them. I agree that understanding the bible is progressive. How ever you see the world today, you will find evidence to back it up in the Bible. JW believe we are living in the last days of Satan's rule over the earth. They believe in The Revelation literally. So considering how the world has changed and will change for The Ultimate Battle very soon, they see the language of their Bible to be fitting for this event.

Though Christianity appears to be divided at this time, we are a complete body in faith. I wonder if I'll be around when this thing really fires up. Just think - all this bickering that Christians do, kinda like one big disfunctional family; and it will be interesting to see how all of those divisions who believe will come together to create the body of Christ - the whole armour of God. (Ephesians 6)
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It's ok, Truth. We've come to an understanding here. And for me, once someone pointed out that JWs are like soldiers, things fell rather neatly into place. I for one can now understand were JWs come from. And that was what I was hoping to understand...eventually. ;)

Again I point out this thread is for JWs to express their views on their "denomination" of Christianity...that is what it was designed for. Just like I had my chance with the Catholic thread, and others with their particular takes on Christian faith. And I'm glad to see that these followers of God, obliged us with sharing their particular views...

v/r

Q
 
Bandit said:
i really dont see these religions coming together because it has been inbred into peoples thinking, though some people will step out of their traditions over time to come together with those who are willing to put aside doctrinal issues. i think these divisions have been provoked by organized religion for 2000 years due to a false sense of security induced by the leaderships & it takes devastation & desolation to bring them together.
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If you believe in an 'end time', then the religions will come together for this purpose. If Christianity believes in The Revelation literally, which it does in the way that fits the Ultimate Purpose, then all the denominations of Christianity will come together to create the body of Christ which is the whole armour of God. The strongest points need to be the breastplate and helmet talked about in Ephesians 6, in which all denominations happen to agree. Interesting, eh? Other strong points in Christianity form the extremities. If we put aside doctrinal issues, then Christianity becomes something else. Though we argue, the doctrinal issues are important.
i see partial truths in them all without joining any of them & for what? just to be excommunicated if you have a different view.
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Yeah, I see all religion as a very valid piece of the puzzle. But it depends, perhaps, on your purpose here on this earth. As we gain knowlege, perhaps the meaning of our purpose changes. Like me, I think that if I had not grown up in the Kingdom Hall, I would not believe in spiritual matters as deeply as I do. If I had not left the Kingdom Hall though I still hold on to alot of the things that I had been taught, I would be to narrow minded to see that God is using everyone for His Will. Not to say anymore that this is the case with JW, the understanding of a child is quite different most times than that of an experienced adult.
just thinking out loud Truthseeker, because you have a good way of bringing out some of my inner feelings when i read your posts & thanks for listening:) .
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Thank you, Bandit. Humility is a long, hard road that never comes to an end - and I am exhausted. :D
 
Quahom1 said:
It's ok, Truth. We've come to an understanding here. And for me, once someone pointed out that JWs are like soldiers, things fell rather neatly into place. I for one can now understand were JWs come from. And that was what I was hoping to understand...eventually. ;)

Again I point out this thread is for JWs to express their views on their "denomination" of Christianity...that is what it was designed for. Just like I had my chance with the Catholic thread, and others with their particular takes on Christian faith. And I'm glad to see that these followers of God, obliged us with sharing their particular views...

v/r

Q
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Thank You, Quahom. I am so glad that I've graduated. It fills my heart will peace that even if my purpose is no longer with JW, that the purpose that I believe was set up for me is in effect.

I'd like to share that my aunt was just baptized into JW. She is 73 (though she moves around like she's 43). My grandmother was her sister. I talked with my aunt last week and she told me of all these gracious people that she has met in the organization who were brought in through my grandmother. They say that my grandmother's preaching of 'the good news of Jehovah's Kingdom' has saved their lives. It's a bit humerous to me because my grandmother really got on her own family's nerves. She couldn't even bring her own sister in - someone else had to. My aunt went to church every Sunday and she knows that Bible front and back, but her purpose has changed, and she feels she now belongs in the Kingdom Hall. But the way I relate to her hasn't changed, she and I still have the same loving relationship, though her spiritual purpose has. That woman raised me as much as my grandmother did. And in a strange way, what she has done has made me respect my grandmother so much more. And has also made me feel like I am more like my grandmother than I thought I was.

Wow, Humility.
 
truthseeker said:
If you believe in an 'end time', then the religions will come together for this purpose. If Christianity believes in The Revelation literally, which it does in the way that fits the Ultimate Purpose, then all the denominations of Christianity will come together to create the body of Christ which is the whole armour of God. The strongest points need to be the breastplate and helmet talked about in Ephesians 6, in which all denominations happen to agree. Interesting, eh? Other strong points in Christianity form the extremities. If we put aside doctrinal issues, then Christianity becomes something else. Though we argue, the doctrinal issues are important.
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thanks for chatting:) i would say the sheild of faith is most important- so see we already disagree LOL (teasing)
i would agree doctrines are important-
but it is like this, if you dont believe Jesus is Michael doctrine then how can you be a JW? if you dont believe the trinity doctrine, how can you be a catholic? if you dont believe in the Jesus Only doctrine how can you be a pentecostal?
there is just no way i see all that coming together unless the arguing stops & is replaced with love. because they are doctrines that seperate people & do not bring people together. people have been raised or (indoctrinated) that this is what you have to believe if you want to go to heaven & if you dont believe it then you go to hell. (& they are not a heaven or hell issue IMO)
for example: i asked questions from an early age to the leaders about the beliefs at my church & one question was if someone believes different on particular issues, will they go to hell? & the response was always the same- "I WOULD NOT SAY THAT"
so i learned early not to be that way & i am ever thankful.


truthseeker said:
Yeah, I see all religion as a very valid piece of the puzzle. But it depends, perhaps, on your purpose here on this earth. As we gain knowlege, perhaps the meaning of our purpose changes. Like me, I think that if I had not grown up in the Kingdom Hall, I would not believe in spiritual matters as deeply as I do. If I had not left the Kingdom Hall though I still hold on to alot of the things that I had been taught, I would be to narrow minded to see that God is using everyone for His Will. Not to say anymore that this is the case with JW, the understanding of a child is quite different most times than that of an experienced adult.
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i feel the same way. there is an odd puzzle that is for sure.
if i had not been raised the way i was, more of a free thinking non-dom church i would not be as concerned about spiritual matters as deeply either.
i also like the fact that you still have a love for the kingdom hall & all the truth that you learned growing up.
do you ever wonder if it because Christianity got off on the wrong foot from the start & now all these denominations are trying to get back to what really happened with Jesus & the apostles?

truthseeker said:
Thank you, Bandit. Humility is a long, hard road that never comes to an end - and I am exhausted. :D
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well there are not a lot of people i talk real serious about religion with & i have found you to be sincere & yes humble as pie & I appreciate & love you a lot Truthseeker:)

note: no intentions to get off topic here, just found a little outlet here in this thread today & i think i am finished. thanks again.
 
truthseeker said:
If you believe in an 'end time',
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just a little comparison here that i forgot to say. i think my church & the JW are real close on the same teaching of the millennial kingdom & most of Revelation. not the 1914 doctrine, but the way things will be when Jesus comes back & brings peace to the earth.
not that i fully understand HOW, but i do believe.:)
 
Hi Blaznfattyz:

This doesn't seem to be the thread in which to discuss the more in depth translations of the scriptures from our JW perspective. I've therefore put up a brief answer to all of the trinitarian and Jesus/Michael the angel scriptures that you quoted. If you wish to discuss these in depth, then please do so by creating your own new discussion thread. Each one can be tackled individually if you so wish.
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Your QUOTE:

"The HUGE difference is when jw's say the name jehova they are not sharing the same meaning of the name with christians, which is why jw's have difficulty with the scriptures when god calls jesus god, and jesus calls himself god, and he and god are one and both i am, and becuase of that they use a bible that changes the original scripture to fit what they believe, isnt that right?"


No. Our scriptures have not been changed. The NWT is close to the original languages and concepts used by careful translation methods. After trying to show you earlier, how Jehovahs name had been knocked out of the scriptures, we can see that many translations show how far removed from the contents of the original writings they had wandered from. They have nearly obliterated the name of God.... Jehovah, the name that should have been kept in all bibles. This leaves some people in doubt, so that they do not put a lot of faith in other translations.

We find that there is no difficulty at all in understanding God. He is a singular God... The discrepancies come about by the variations in the way different bibles have translated the original Greek and Hebrew languages. We try to get back to the roots by looking at how the Greeks and Hebrews would have sensed the actual inspired word of God using correct translation. All scripture comes from God. This is important to get an accurate view of what was really being said.
What bible do you use ?
Trinity ? This can be started at the beginning by the translation of the generic term Elohim. seemingly plural in essence, but actually singular in context, as it is nearly always used with singular verbs in the OT.

Throughout the OT, Elohim, (God) by the grammatical structure of Hebrew, is designating a singular God. Throughout 4000 years of OT history, God is not found to be of a triune nature, and neither did he take on a triune form thereafter.


JOHN 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ...

"QEOS EN HO LOGOS." and the word was (a) god, (or divine being)...

Although Greek does not have an indefinate article 'a' or 'an'.The indefinate article is implied, and thus used to make sense in English grammar e.g. "a God" goes in line with the previous phrase "the word was WITH God" There are two separate beings within the whole sentence.

English grammar indicates usage of the indefinate "a" in this type of sentence structure, where no definate article (the) is used before the predicate noun 'Qeos' (God) in the last part of the sentence... 'was God' It can become indefinate, just as "a" is inserted in the following scriptural sentence of similar structure, (although the indefinate article 'a' is not found in the original Greek )......

John 8:44. There Jesus says of the Devil: "That one was a manslayer" and "he is a liar."


'The word was a God' (or divine).... 40 bibles previous to the NWT translated it in this way. e.g. The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Anointed (J. L. Tomanec, 1958)

We are not alone in the above translation. It cannot be said that we are the originators of 'changing' the bible.


Col 2:9 for in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form....

Actually....."all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily,"
"divine quality" is theótes, and this is the only use of the word in the Christian Greek Scriptures there is a basis for translating these words as "Divinity"

We are not alone in translating the scripture this way e.g. The Jerusalem bible:
"In his body lives the fullness of divinity, and in him you too find your own fullfillment..."
Please compare with......... John 5:26 The Lord Jesus said, ‘For just as the Father has life in Himself, so He gave to the Son to also have life in Himself.’

This shows that Jehovah God the Father is the source of life." and the nature of the two are not of a three in one ( Holy spirit included.)


Hebrews 1:7-8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the sceptre of your kingdom.


"HO QRONOS SOU HO QEOS"
Actually......."God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness."
Other translations render it the same as the NWT e.g.
"About the Son, however, God said: "Your kingdom, O God, will last forever ! You will rule over your people with justice."-Todays English Version.
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If you read on to Hebrews 1:9 God, your God, anointed you." This makes it clear that the one addressed in verse eight is not God, but one who worships God and is anointed by him.


John 10:30-33 I and the Father are one. -

This one is old hat and defies belief that it keeps cropping up in support of trinitarian beliefs

"EGO KAI HO PATNR HEN ESMEN.......word for word ..."I and the Father one we-are...But read on

Jesus prays in John 17:11 that His followers may all be one, i.e. united in purpose, as He and His Father are united." ( like Manchester united football team. As one team, yet all with separate abilities...not equal. Some with two left feet and some without ! ) .................

...John 14:28 The Father is greater than I am..... This scripture says it all.


(Romans 9:5) Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

Punctuation changes the meaning, but Greek did not have punctuation. In some bibles, Romans 9:5 declares that Christ is God.This has been done by placing the punctuation marks to suit the theology of the translaters.

The latter part of the verse should read, 'Christ who is god over all, blessed for ever. Amen.' Even so, Christ would not be equated absolutely with God.The scripture is a doxology to God.

(Tit 2:13) while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ,


A literal translation of the Greek phrase is, "glory of the great God, and Saviour of us Christ Jesus. Compare...."Savior" in 1 Timothy 1:1....Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus under command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus, our hope, 2 to Timothy, a genuine child in the faith: (and 4:10.) The two are separate.


(Exo 3:14- 15) God said to Moses, "I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'

"I am who I am" is a translation of the Hebrew Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh. This is not indicating that 'I am' is Gods name.

The proper translation of this verse is not "I am who I am" but "I will be what I will be" or "I will prove to be what I shall prove to be." This is based on the future tense conjugation of the Hebrew verb meaning ‘to be.’ Exodus 3:12 we find that very same word, here universally translated as I WILL BE, not I AM. The same is true in numerous other verses, including Jos. 1:5, Jdg. 6:16, 1Sam. 23:17, 2Sam. 7:14, 15:34, 16:18, 1Chr. 17:13, Isa. 47:7 and Jer. 11:4.


(John 8:58) "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!"

EGO EIMI....can be I am, I was, I have been.The Greek reads literally translated; "Said to-them Jesus Amen amen I-am-saying to you Before Abraham to become I am".

I am, John also uses this expression to identify the blind man whom Jesus healed (Joh 9:9), showing that the words do not of themselves convey any notion of deity.

The NWT is not the only bible that renders it as "I have been" The American standard bible translates it in the same way. Along with a number of others.

Your QUOTE:

if jesus is an archangel, then the bible tells us do not worship angels, only god. so god said to worship jesus, because jesus is in the father and the father is in jesus, , and they are one from beginning, and jesus is eternal life and the only way to salvation:

when john saw an angel he bowed down, but this happened:
(Rev 22:8-9) I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me.9. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow-servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"


No other god can be worshipped. There are, however, beings that can have the title of "god". The Almighty God allows them a position and measure of authority to do his will; act as his agents or rule with power. The angels can be called "gods" but are not worshipped as gods They have the title "gods" given by the Almighty God because they act as his agents. They deliver messages to humans for Him. They exercise great power and authority, granted to them by the Almighty God. They can kill, chastise, or punish anyone if they deem it necessary (Luke 1:8-20; Acts 7:53; Heb. 2:2; Gen. 19:11).



Jesus is to be worshipped.
(Hebrews 1:5-8) For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father" ? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"? And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."
In speaking of the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire."

Only Jehovah God is to be worshipped.

*Vines Expository Dictionary says under this word:

"1.PROSKUNEO...,to make obeisance, do reverence to (from pros, towards, and kuneo, to kiss) is the most frequent word rendered to worship."
"to do obeisance" is an acceptable rendition for PROSKYNEO.
It is not, and does not always have to be translated as worship.
The NWT use the word obeisance where appropriate.


Compare...Matthew 4:10 Then Jesus said to him: "Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him ALONE you must render sacred service. Is this a contradiction ? The context bares out the way that 'Proskeno' can be translated. Hence, even though a translator would choose to always translate PROSKYNEO as "worship" this would be no proof that Jesus is God.


(Acts 4:11-12) He is " ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone. Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."


Jehovah states that besides He there is "no saviour." However the scriptures call others, other than Jehovah, "saviours"? ......Judges 3.9. Was Othniel a "saviour"? Yes. Was Othniel a 'false' saviour? No.........Jehovah can state that only he is a "saviour" of his people yet at the same time call others who he uses, for purposes of salvation, saviours.

(Isa 43:11) I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no saviour.

Lord is translated as Adonai and refers to Jehovah God alone.

Rev 21:6- 7) He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.


Jesus is the the great I AM, the first and the last, our God:
(Isa 44:6) "This is what the LORD says- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

(Rev 1:17)I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.


These scriptures seem to imply that God and Jesus are of the same because they each state that they are the beginning and the end......This is assuming identical attributes by similarity. However, consider that Jesus is identified as "King of kings" (Rev. 19:16). Yet, Jehovah himself calls Nebuchadnezzar "King of kings," as does the prophet Daniel (Eze. 26:7; Dan. 2:37). Should we therefore conclude that these two persons are one and the same, because of similar scriptures ? Are the titles applied in a different sense?
The two times that Jesus is identified as "the first and the last," it is in a context related to his death and his resurrection. Revelation 1:17 and 2:8 could not have this same meaning is clear from the fact that "the first and the last" of Isaiah 44:6 is obviously God Almighty, Jehovah; (adonai), but Jesus is called "First and Last" in the context of his death and resurrection, he also admits to another as his God in Revelation. 3:12.


"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."


Jesus is only referred as the mighty God but never as the Almighty God. That title is reserved for the one and only true God Jehovah.

Shalohm


 
MEe I'm not attacking yah... But Again the fruits are the same.... The hungry where fed, sick people got healed, the lost was saved. They where baering fruits of the spirit. But once again.... I still would like to know your (jw)roots post 1914..... which brings another question(breifly if possible) what do you mean by Jesus' pressence being made known? I guess this is where we may get confused. My neighbor is JW but we work different shifts, so rarely ever get to chat. He never really got to explain what is ment byt the whole 1914 thing... except it had something to do with the league of nations(which I can see the point of veiw.... but need more explaining to see where it comes from and why You say Jesus' pressence was made known).... If you would prefer you could send me a PM on this.... Thanx much:)
 
"Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming."—MATTHEW 24:42.

​
​
In many respects, people today are like the men and women who lived in Noah’s day. At that time the earth was filled with violence, and the inclination of the heart of man was "only bad all the time." (Genesis 6:5) Most were consumed with the daily affairs of life. Before he brought the great Deluge, though, Jehovah gave people an opportunity to repent. He commissioned Noah to preach, and Noah obeyed—serving as "a preacher of righteousness" perhaps for 40 or 50 years or more. (2 Peter 2:5) However, the people ignored Noah’s warning message. They were not on the watch. In the end, therefore, only Noah and his family survived the execution of Jehovah’s judgment.—Matthew 24:37-39.​

Was Noah’s ministry a success? Do not judge by the small number that responded. Really, Noah’s preaching fulfilled its purpose regardless of the response. Why? Because it gave people ample opportunity to choose whether they would serve Jehovah or not. Even if there is little positive response, we are having great success. Why? Because by preaching, weare sounding God’s warning, and we are fulfilling the commission that Jesus gave his followers.—Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20. yes this crooked generation now, will have to be judged as to weather they have responded to the recognizable signs that Jesus is in power ,and also if they are doing the will of God . every eye will see , in other words they will see with the eye of understanding , but not every one will respond .This world system as we know it ,will come to its end ,and Gods goverment will take over the rulership of man, so its not a case of people uniting from different religions its a case of people getting out of the world empire of false religion ,
And I heard another voice out of heaven say: "Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues. revelation 18;4

and then Jehovah will take them in ,we are now living in what the bible calls the last days ,(the last days being the last days of man ruling himself independent of God) there are six convincing lines of evidence that point to it being the last days now.

First, we clearly see the fulfillment of the apostle Paul’s prophecy concerning "the last days.

But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away( 2 timothy 3;1-5)

Second, we see the effects of the ouster of Satan and his demons from heaven, in fulfillment of Revelation 12:9.

Third, we are living in the time of the eighth and final "king" mentioned in the prophecy recorded at Revelation 17:9-11
. Here the apostle John mentions seven kings, representing seven world powers—Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and the Anglo-American dual world power. He also sees "an eighth king" that "springs from the seven." This eighth king—the last one that John envisions—now represents the United Nations. John says that this eighth king "goes off into destruction," after which no further earthly kings are mentioned


Fourth, we are living in the period symbolized by the feet of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream image. The prophet Daniel interpreted this mysterious dream of an enormous image in human form. (Daniel 2:36-43)

Fifth, we see a global preaching work being accomplished, which Jesus said would take place just before the end of this system.

And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come...matthew 24;14

Sixth, the number of genuine anointed disciples of Christ is dwindling, though some will evidently still be on earth when the great tribulation begins.

 
mee said:
if your wife is one of JW then i am quite sure she can put you right about what we believe, you only have to ask her,
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I have decided not to talk about truth with my wife, from her JW point of view.
So, if you want to answer my questions, feel free to do so, telling me what to do with my wife is very bad taste.
Thanks !
 
from your post "A person should make sure that his beliefs can be supported by the Scriptures, for there is only one true faith." maybe these are the reasons why christians oppose jw's and discount it as a true faith. these teachings are not supported by scripture.

What do the Jehovah's Witnesses Teach?​
  • There is one God in one person, Make Sure of All Things, p 188.
  • There is no Trinity, Let God be True, p. 100-101; Make Sure of All Things, p.386.
  • The Holy Spirit is a force, not alive, Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp.
    406-407.
  • The Holy Spirit is God's impersonal active force, The Watchtower, June 1, 1952,
    p. 24.
  • Jehovah's first creation was his 'only-begotten Son'. . . was used by Jehovah in
    creating all other things", Aid to Bible Understanding, pp. 390-391.
  • Jesus was Michael the archangel who became a man, The Watchtower, May 15,
    1963, p. 307; The New World, 284.
  • Jesus was only a perfect man, not God in flesh, Reasoning from the Scriptures,
    1985, pp. 306.
  • Jesus did not rise from the dead in his physical body, Awake! July 22, 1973, p. 4.
  • Jesus was raised "not a human creature, but a spirit." Let God be True, p. 276.
  • Jesus was born again, The Watchtower, Nov. 15, 1954, p. 682.
  • Jesus did not die on a cross but on a stake, Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985,
    pp. 89-90.
  • Jesus began his invisible rule over the earth in 1914, The Truth Shall Make You Free,
    p. 300.
  • Jesus' ransom sacrifice did not include Adam, Let God be True, p. 119.
  • Their church is the self-proclaimed prophet of God, The Watchtower, April 1,
    1972, p. 197.
  • They claim to be the only channel of God's truth, The Watchtower, Feb. 15,
    1981, p. 19.
  • Only their church members will be saved, The Watchtower, Feb, 15, 1979, p. 30.
  • Good works are necessary for salvation, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 1,
    pp. 150, 152.
  • The soul ceases to exist after death, Let God be True, p. 59, 60, 67.
  • There is no hell of fire where the wicked are punished, Let God be True, p. 79, 80.
  • Only 144,000 Jehovah's Witness go to heaven, Reasoning from the Scriptures,
    1985, pp. 166-167, 361; Let God be True, p. 121.
  • Only the 144,000 Jehovah's Witness are born again. Reasoning from the
    Scriptures, 1985, p. 76.; Watchtower 11/15/54, p. 681.
  • Only the 144,000 may take communion,
  • Blood transfusions are a sin, Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 72-73.
  • The Cross is a pagan symbol and should not be used, Reasoning from the
    Scriptures, 1985, pp. 90-92.
  • Salvation is by faith and what you do, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 1, pp.
    150,152.
  • It is possible to lose your salvation, Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp.
    358-359.
  • The universe is billions of years old, Your will Be Done on Earth, p. 43.
  • Each of the 6 creative days of God in Genesis 1, was 7000 years long.
    Therefore, Man was created toward the end of 42,000 years of earth's
    preparation, Let God be True, p. 168.
  • They also refuse to vote, salute the flag, sing the "Star Spangled Banner," or
    celebrate Christmas or birthdays. They are not allowed to serve in the armed
    forces.
  • Satan was entrusted with the obligation and charged with the duty of
    overseeing the creation of the earth, Children, p 55
 
You know Mee I will agree with you 100% that manipulating the truth to reach an end is not a good thing. It does cause alot of very bad things to happen and continue to happen..I just wish you could see the truth behind the watchtowers manipulation:(
 
Dor said:
You know Mee I will agree with you 100% that manipulating the truth to reach an end is not a good thing. It does cause alot of very bad things to happen and continue to happen..I just wish you could see the truth behind the watchtowers manipulation:(
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Their work focuses solely and exclusively on the good news of the heavenly Kingdom—God's instrument for bringing peace to the whole earth.— matthew 6;10 matthew 24;14 that is what the mags focus on, because that is what Jesus told us to focus on, so there is nothing bad about that in my eyes ........... in fact it is very good because it makes known Gods established heavenly kingdom with Jesus as the king . i think its great , but everyone to their own :)
 
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