M
- Status
Jeannot
Jeannot
QUERY: Are JWs Arians?
AletheiaRivers
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 176
- Reaction score
- 4
- Points
- 0
Jeannot said:
I don't know about all of Arius' teachings, but as regards the relationship between God and Jesus, then yes, JW's fall into the Arian category.
M
mee
Guest
Jeannot said:
Because they do not believe in the Trinity dogma, it has been said of Jehovah’s Witnesses that they practice "a form of Arianism." But the fact that they are not Trinitarians does not make them Arians. so no we are not arians
mee said:
Because they do not believe in the Trinity dogma, it has been said of Jehovah’s Witnesses that they practice "a form of Arianism." But the fact that they are not Trinitarians does not make them Arians. so no we are not arians
I fail to see where the Trinity is "dogma". But then again, you fail to see where JW teachings are dogma...
Personally I could care less a man/woman's denomination. Jesus is savior is the core? Then we're alright.
v/r
Q
M
mee
Guest
Quahom1 said:
Accurate Knowledge of Jesus is Vital to Salvation
How, then, can one gain true salvation? First Timothy 2:3, 4 answers: [God’s] will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.
mee said:
Insulting another Christian because he does not hold your point of view, is not very brotherly...and implying his views are "inaccurate" is a form of insult. I may have challenged your views before, but I never implied you were less than I, or ignorant of the truth...perhaps you might do me the same courtesy next time.
v/r
Q
M
mee
Guest
i didnt say you , i was just stating what the bible says , many people say they believe in Jesus , but the bible talks about accurate knowledge , and Jesus himself said that there would be ones who believed in Jesus , and claimed to do great things in his name ,yet he said to them get away from me you workers of lawlessness.Quahom1 said:
Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness matthew 7;22,23
but at no time have i said that of you, i am just bringing out what the bible says, so i dont think it is just a case of believing in Jesus, it is getting the accurate knowledge about Jehovah and Jesus
(John 17:3) This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ
(Philippians 1:9) And this is what I continue praying, that YOUR love may abound yet more and more with accurate knowledge and full discernment
China Cat Sunflower
Nimrod
- Messages
- 2,924
- Reaction score
- 13
- Points
- 0
mee said:
All sorts of men? A convenient modification.
Chris
China Cat Sunflower
Nimrod
- Messages
- 2,924
- Reaction score
- 13
- Points
- 0
Quahom1 said:Welcome back.
Why thank you!
Chris
mee said:
Yeah, Mee. Jesus was talking about those that talk the big talk but never walked the walk. Those that never lifted a hand to help another, beyond their whatever. He meant those that talk and do nothing to back that talk up. That is what Jesus meant. Even my sons at six understood that.
v/r
Q
Dor
Bible Thumper
Welcome Chris to the NWTChina Cat Sunflower said:
M
mee
Guest
yes thats correct , they are not doing what Jesus told them too, they are followers in name only, that was the point i was trying to make , even though they think they are doing right in Gods eyes it seems they will not be doing the right things , So it is important to have accurate knowledge about Jehovah and Jesus then we can do the things they want us tooQuahom1 said:
M
mee
Guest
All men are all sorts ,we are all different, but after taking in accurate knowledge about Jehovah and Jesus , we are all in unity of purpose, and have the hope of being saved, yes from all nations and tribes , all sorts of men and womenChina Cat Sunflower said:
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus.... romans 10;12
What about texts such as Titus 2:11, which refers to "the salvation of all men," according to the rendering of RS? Other texts, such as John 12:32, Romans 5:18, and 1 Timothy 2:3, 4, convey a similar thought in RS, KJ, NE, TEV, etc. The Greek expressions rendered "all" and "everyone" in these verses are inflected forms of the word pas. As shown in Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (London, 1962, Vol. I, p. 46), pas can also mean "every kind or variety." So, in the above verses, instead of "all," the expression "every kind of" could be used; or "all sorts of," as is done in NW. Which is correct—"all" or the thought conveyed by "all sorts of"? Well, which rendering is also harmonious with the rest of the Bible? The latter one is. Consider Acts 10:34, 35; Revelation 7:9, 10; 2 Thessalonians 1:9. (Note: Other translators also recognize this sense of the Greek word, as is shown by their renderings of it at Matthew 5:11—"all kinds of," RS, TEV; "every kind of," NE; "all manner of," KJ.)
Last edited by a moderator:
Dor
Bible Thumper
Quahom1 said:
No Q I was saying welcome to the New World Translation cause he specifically mentioned the way it is changed in the post I quoted.
So thank you very much.
Hello Mee....and all
You quote from Timothy 2: 3,4 ....The NWT is a good translation, the usage of the words ’All sorts of men’ is reasonable, although, I have always felt that the insertion of the word ‘accurate’ is pushing it a bit. However, the Greek word epignosis used in this text; and also found at 2 Timothy 3:7 literally means ‘On-knowledge‘, which seems to say that more than just knowledge is needed. Also, the context of the whole of the scriptures seem to imply that accuracy of its meaning and of the creator is required. So 'accurate knowledge' is a reasonable rendering....just about !
Your quote:
Accurate Knowledge of Jesus is Vital to Salvation
How, then, can one gain true salvation? First Timothy 2:3, 4 answers: [God’s] will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.
Dor and sunflower seem to question the usage of the words ‘All sorts of men’ in the NWT
Quote from Sunflower:
All sorts of men? A convenient modification.
Reply from Dor
Welcome Chris to the NWT !
These quotes seem to imply that the NWT has somewhat modified the original Greek, (and Hebrew) text on translation and transliteration. A common allegation on most websites and forums, but usually without any true back up found to the assertions.
Looking at the original Greek relating to these verses, we can see that the Jehovah’s witnesses New world translation has done no more of a supposed theological bias modification of the original Greek text than any other translation.
Reading the Greek and English renderings from the 1881 Westcott and Hort translation: 1 Timothy 2: 3,4 reads:
Houtos (this) Kalos (ideal) ka (and) Apodekos (welcome) enopion (in view) ho (of the) soter (saviour) ego (of us) theos (God) hos (who) pas (all) ANTHROPOS (humans)
thelo (is willing) sozo (to be saved) kai (and) eis (into) epignosis (on-knowledge) aletheia (of truth) erchomai (to be coming)
Direct English translation reads as:
"This ideal and welcome in view of the saviour of us God who all humans is willing to be saved and into on-knowledge of truth to be coming."
Syntax: Westcott and Hort: 1 Timothy 2: 3,4 renders it in English as:
“For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our saviour. Who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
The NWT word it as:
“This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Saviour, God, whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.”
The point that Sunflower and Dor seem to pull out is that ‘All sorts of men’ is a modification, possibly to suit the JW theology. This clearly is not the case as the transliteration comes directly from the Greek word Anthropos, a word that we are all familiar with.... meaning humans. ‘All sorts of men’ and ‘all men’ are accurate renderings of the Greek word anthropos. If however we had put ‘all sorts of primates’ we’d be making a monkey out of the transliteration.
Shalohm
Dor
Bible Thumper
E99 said:
Actually I did not even look at the change at this particular verse at all so my point was not they made that modification to suit any theology. My point was and is the NWT has some very perculiar translations they use, not if it is to suit their theology.
That is for each individual to decide on their own.
mee said:
They know they are not doing right. It is only lip service for show (the only reward they get is the audience they command here on earth. It has nothing to do with those that try in earnest to do what God wants (though they are mistaken), that Jesus recognizes as His own.
As much as you think you are right in what you do, others think they are right in how they follow Christ (to the best of their understanding). Jesus I opine will recognize both you and they.
But for those who do nothing but put on a show, He will say "I don't know you". That is the message we are bluntly told, Mee.
Not whether the proper "religion" was followed. And I submit according to the new testament, that it isn't Jehovah (God the Father) that saves man, nor can man go directly to Jehovah (on anything). It is only Jesus that is man's salvation. Therefore what Jesus said, best be not taken lightly, nor should He be considered second fiddle when eternity is considered.
my thoughts.
v/r
Q
- Status