taijasi
Gnōthi seauton
Gee, does he have a hairy chest too?BlaznFattyz said:
God, gender and women's place in abrahamic religions
- Thread starter InquisitiveInHalifax
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wonder
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I don't think "merciful" and "loving" means decreeing that half of human creation is lesser than the other. I can't imagine that there are segregated paradises.InquisitiveInHalifax said:
Part of my struggle with Abrahamic religion has always been with the holy books: how much of this is actually divine? Why include instructions on the proper treatment of slaves, or how to execute adulterous or unchaste women, or how much to pay for this or that offense? This smacks of humanity, not divinity.
In more ancient days, and in some places in modern times, it is more necessary for men and women to have more established roles in their communities, for the survival of all. Each society has a common goal: to be able to raise enough food to raise more children, who could help grow more food and thus sustain more people. So the ancient tenant on the 4-wives-1-husband deal is simple, socially correct, albeit ancient math. One man can impregnate many women and create more children (workers), but many men with a single woman will not produce nearly as much.
So, it seems logical to me that some parts of these ancient scriptures incorporated guidelines for living within communities during that time. I believe that they still have practical application in the modern world.. Not coveting your neighbor's spouse or goods, ensuring a balanced home for the raising of children, and supporting your neighbors and community--these are all good rules to live by. This speaks to good manners and practicality as much as it could holy mandate. A social code and religious code having something in common: they are guides or rules for appropriate standards of living for a given set of people. For an ancient culture based in smaller communities, the social and the religious code were one and the same.
Those who assembled those books did so in the context of life as they saw it. But with the passing of time, there are more humans, and with more humans come more questions. Religious and social codes are analyzed and dissected and reassembled, especially in the West. There, representatives of hundreds of cultures are interacting on a scale unseen before in history. With this collected experience, we should come to understand that these ancient books are not the end of the answer to the equation of the human spirit. They are part of the history of faith, and help us to understand the role of the divine in human life throughout ages. Even God has re-examined his covenant with people (remember after the Great Flood?). We have learned that slavery and repressing women are not ideals to live by, so we changed them in our societies. Holy scripture follows along, depending on which version you read. Just because it's old and accepted, does that make it right, or above question (at the least, editing)?
InquisitiveInHalifax said:
Masculinity strikes me as a human trait, not a divine one. Of all the things I can think of to describe the almighty, "masculine" is not one of them. I do not pretend to understand the nature of the divine, or even to be able to describe it, but I don't think of it as a man. God help us.
(j/k fellas)I hope I haven't strayed too much off topic, this board is really cool so far.
I'd have to seriously disagree with you on this one. There are more slaves now (especially sex slaves) than have ever been in the history of the world. That is why the rules and guidelines in the Qur'an (can't speak for the Bible or Torah) transcend time and cultural amalgamation. Whether or not you percieve humanity as changing to not need these guidelines is irrelavent, they are in place because we needed them years ago, we need them now, and we will need them until the end of time on earth. This is because good and evil will always be present and we, as children need our Father Allah (swt) to guide us.
On the matter of polygamy: The rule of allowed polygamy was (and is) in place for different reasons. One such reason it is in place is FOR the women themselves. I'm not talking about polygamy in this day and age where there is no real call for it. I'm talking about during times of war where the husbands of women would die and the ratio of men to women would drop tremendously. In these times, many of the women and children are left with nothing, and so the men take care of them. Another reasonable example is when A man is incapable of taking care of the orphans that have come his way and so he must take on another wife to help raise them. There are reasons for everything in the Qur'an and most things in the Bible and Torah, you just have to look at them objectively and be trained constrain your bias.
Jeannot
Jeannot
BlaznFattyz said:
GEnesis 1:27 reads "God created humans in His own image, in the image of God He created mankind, male and female he created them."
BlaznFattyz
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Jeannot said:
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This [is] now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
Jeannot
Jeannot
So men have one less rib than women?BlaznFattyz said:
I'm with the RCC on this one. It's an allegory--hardly literal.
Jeannot
Jeannot
BTW, Fatty, the Bible says men and women were created in the image and likeness of God. So does the Bible contradict itself?
Do you really think only males were so created?
Do you really think only males were so created?
Jeannot said:
Two stories are being told. One is the "fact" that God created Human beings in God's image and likeness. In other words how did mankind come around? God made them. Pretty straight forward actually.
The second "story" seems to take on a much more "personal" note. It tells us how intimate God was in the making of Mankind. Man was made from "dust" (which we know is true, we are made of dust and water, physically). And then God breathed "life" into that dust and water based form (which we do not still understand). Now it seems to me, that God did not have to repeat the procedure, for woman, since Man was already living and breathing, so to make it even more personal between man, God and woman, God simply took some of the already "living flesh" that was of man, and formed the other part of man, or the "companion" if you will.
I would say that logically the first man (based on this part of the story), was not only missing one rib, but neither did the first man or woman have navels.
Seriously, it appears that one part of the story is a commentary of observations and explanations of how things came to be, while the other part of the story is a personal journal describing God's thinking, and the reactions of and emotions of man.
my thoughts
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cyberpi
Guest
Still on the book of Genesis? A few selected verses to consider from Christianity and Islam:
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. (Jesus, pbuh).
Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
John 8:2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came to him; and he sat down, and taught them.
John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
John 19:25-28 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home. After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
I love that Trinity in John 19: Mary, Mary, Mary... or: 1) Mother Mariam, 2) Disciple and the Son Mary, and 3) Jesus. Either way the gender issue is finalized in the end... a feature of the flesh and nothing more.
Interesting it is the _last_ verse in the Gospel of Thomas that nailed it:
Thomas 114: Simon Peter said to them, "Mary should leave us, for females are not worthy of life." Jesus said, "See, I am going to attract her to make her male so that she too might become a living spirit that resembles you males. For every female that makes itself male will enter the Kingdom of heaven.
Another favorite, revealed to a woman:
John 4:23-24 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 4:27 And upon this came his disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her?
In Islam:
33:35
Yusufali: For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.
Pickthal: Lo! men who surrender unto Allah, and women who surrender, and men who believe and women who believe, and men who obey and women who obey, and men who speak the truth and women who speak the truth, and men who persevere (in righteousness) and women who persevere, and men who are humble and women who are humble, and men who give alms and women who give alms, and men who fast and women who fast, and men who guard their modesty and women who guard (their modesty), and men who remember Allah much and women who remember - Allah hath prepared for them forgiveness and a vast reward.
Shakir: Surely the men who submit and the women who submit, and the believing men and the believing women, and the obeying men and the obeying women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women and the humble men and the humble women, and the almsgiving men and the almsgiving women, and the fasting men and the fasting women, and the men who guard their private parts and the women who guard, and the men who remember Allah much and the women who remember-- Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a mighty reward.
Khalifa: The submitting men, the submitting women, the believing men, the believing women, the obedient men, the obedient women, the truthful men, the truthful women, the steadfast men, the steadfast women, the reverent men, the reverent women, the charitable men, the charitable women, the fasting men, the fasting women, the chaste men, the chaste women, and the men who commemorate GOD frequently, and the commemorating women; GOD has prepared for them forgiveness and a great recompense.
I'd hate to be the one who wrote unjust laws to deny men or women equal rights for doing those things... for it is written in the Qur'an that no man stands between anyone and God (swt). Souls are individually judged and no family will benefit you on the day of judgement.
33:36
Yusufali: It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.
Pickthal: And it becometh not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided an affair (for them), that they should (after that) claim any say in their affair; and whoso is rebellious to Allah and His messenger, he verily goeth astray in error manifest.
Shakir: And it behoves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he surely strays off a manifest straying.
Khalifa: No believing man or believing woman, if GOD and His messenger issue any command, has any choice regarding that command. Anyone who disobeys GOD and His messenger has gone far astray.
I'd say: Be careful not to confuse a man's Islam with God's (swt) Islam... for Islam by definition means submission to God (swt).
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. (Jesus, pbuh).
Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
John 8:2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came to him; and he sat down, and taught them.
John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
John 19:25-28 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home. After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
I love that Trinity in John 19: Mary, Mary, Mary... or: 1) Mother Mariam, 2) Disciple and the Son Mary, and 3) Jesus. Either way the gender issue is finalized in the end... a feature of the flesh and nothing more.
Interesting it is the _last_ verse in the Gospel of Thomas that nailed it:
Thomas 114: Simon Peter said to them, "Mary should leave us, for females are not worthy of life." Jesus said, "See, I am going to attract her to make her male so that she too might become a living spirit that resembles you males. For every female that makes itself male will enter the Kingdom of heaven.
Another favorite, revealed to a woman:
John 4:23-24 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 4:27 And upon this came his disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her?
In Islam:
33:35
Yusufali: For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.
Pickthal: Lo! men who surrender unto Allah, and women who surrender, and men who believe and women who believe, and men who obey and women who obey, and men who speak the truth and women who speak the truth, and men who persevere (in righteousness) and women who persevere, and men who are humble and women who are humble, and men who give alms and women who give alms, and men who fast and women who fast, and men who guard their modesty and women who guard (their modesty), and men who remember Allah much and women who remember - Allah hath prepared for them forgiveness and a vast reward.
Shakir: Surely the men who submit and the women who submit, and the believing men and the believing women, and the obeying men and the obeying women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women and the humble men and the humble women, and the almsgiving men and the almsgiving women, and the fasting men and the fasting women, and the men who guard their private parts and the women who guard, and the men who remember Allah much and the women who remember-- Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a mighty reward.
Khalifa: The submitting men, the submitting women, the believing men, the believing women, the obedient men, the obedient women, the truthful men, the truthful women, the steadfast men, the steadfast women, the reverent men, the reverent women, the charitable men, the charitable women, the fasting men, the fasting women, the chaste men, the chaste women, and the men who commemorate GOD frequently, and the commemorating women; GOD has prepared for them forgiveness and a great recompense.
I'd hate to be the one who wrote unjust laws to deny men or women equal rights for doing those things... for it is written in the Qur'an that no man stands between anyone and God (swt). Souls are individually judged and no family will benefit you on the day of judgement.
33:36
Yusufali: It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.
Pickthal: And it becometh not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided an affair (for them), that they should (after that) claim any say in their affair; and whoso is rebellious to Allah and His messenger, he verily goeth astray in error manifest.
Shakir: And it behoves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he surely strays off a manifest straying.
Khalifa: No believing man or believing woman, if GOD and His messenger issue any command, has any choice regarding that command. Anyone who disobeys GOD and His messenger has gone far astray.
I'd say: Be careful not to confuse a man's Islam with God's (swt) Islam... for Islam by definition means submission to God (swt).
cyberpi said:
There is no Thomas 114: And please, what does any of the scripture you show have anything to do with woman's place in Abrahamic faiths? Particularly in Christianity (since you insist on quoting such)?
What you do present is a "Man" who is looking out for His mother...can we men do no less? And in the other point wherein Jesus speaks with a woman "God forbid", yet NO MAN seekest thou, or why talketh with her? That is correct. No man dare ask of God why He speaks to a woman. Know why? it is not man's place to challenge God, nor to ask why God would do what man thinks is right...
A righteous woman is treasure in a man's hand, and a wise man is he who listens to the wisdom of his God fearing wife...without rebuke, without wrath...
And as far as Christianity...what does the Qu'ran Sura's have to do with it? Nothing...That is your "Holy Book". It has nothing to do with the "Tanach, The Pentatuch, the 613 Mizhvat, nor the New testemanet".
Your'e reaching...
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Jeannot
Jeannot
And in John 20:17, Jesus says to Mary Mag: "go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, my God and your God."
Mary was the only one to see Jesus at the tomb.
Mary was the only one to see Jesus at the tomb.
Jeannot said:
Not quite correct. Mary Mag"...was the first to see Jesus up and walking about, after the tomb. Two men, saw that Jesus was not in the tomb. One saw his burial clothes and refused to enter the tomb, while the other ran in with no regard to anything sacred (Peter, go figure).
The "women" never saw Jesus at the tomb...look at your scriptures... v/r
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lunamoth
Episcopalian
Hi Q, I think that in John 20 the Gospel does describe Mary seeing Jesus at the tomb, after the other disciples fled. She mistakes Him for a gardener:
10Then the disciples went back to their homes, 11but Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus' body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.
13They asked her, "Woman, why are you crying?"
"They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him." 14At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.
15"Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?"
Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him."
16Jesus said to her, "Mary."
She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher).
17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "
18Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" And she told them that he had said these things to her.
10Then the disciples went back to their homes, 11but Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus' body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.
13They asked her, "Woman, why are you crying?"
"They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him." 14At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.
15"Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?"
Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him."
16Jesus said to her, "Mary."
She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher).
17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "
18Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" And she told them that he had said these things to her.
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cyberpi
Guest
A few more:
Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Matthew 12:48-50 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Matthew 12:48-50 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
No? Denial won't make it disappear from the world.Quahom1 said:
What leads you to think Jesus (pbuh) is God (swt), despite the gospels saying otherwise? While I personally have no reason to ask why either speaks to anyone, I think it is good to have Faith and ask questions no matter how small. Sometimes the answers come from interesting places and in interesting ways... so try this: write the questions down, pray to be guided, and review them over time.Quahom1 said:
Did I not say 'and Islam'? Probably best for another thread, but much of the Quran refers to that given to prophets in the Old Testament and the Gospel delivered by Jesus (pbuh). The prophets including Jesus (pbuh) are noted in the Qur'an to be considered as equal messengers from God (swt) for Muslims to believe in and study, as of that from the prophet Muhammad (pbuh). I have much more to say on this subject someday on an appopriate thread, but despite anyone's desire to build walls there is strong agreement there is only one true and forever present God.Quahom1 said:
Dor
Bible Thumper
cyberpi said:
It was an add on later so it may not disappear but it wasnt there to start with.
Well I for one dont think it. I know it and the gospels dont say otherwise.cyberpi said:
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cyberpi
Guest
Really? What year was the bible compiled that you read from?Dor said:
Who told you this or what led you to believe it?Dor said:
cyberpi said:
And when was the Apocrypha added to the Bible? It isn't. Hence Thomas is not part of the Bible.
So, your "facts" are based on non cannonized "scripture". Oh, and Thomas was always the "doubter". That much we do know is true.
Really, Christianity is held to the fire by you based on non cannonical writings? You are really reaching...
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cyberpi
Guest
What do you mean held to the fire? I was holding verses to the light, not to the fire. If you want to hold the Gospel of Thomas to the fire, that is your choice. I see truth in it but I only provided one verse and noted that it was the last verse. I never said it was part of the bible, but neither is everything about Jesus (pbuh) found in the bible.Quahom1 said:
Note, the disciples of Christ (pbuh) are considered Muslims:
Quran 3:52
Yusufali: When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
Pickthal: But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him).
Shakir: But when Isa perceived unbelief on their part, he said Who will be my helpers in Allah's way? The disciples said: We are helpers (in the way) of Allah: We believe in Allah and bear witness that we are submitting ones.
Khalifa: When Jesus sensed their disbelief, he said, "Who are my supporters towards GOD?" The disciples said, "We are GOD's supporters; we believe in GOD, and bear witness that we are submitters."
Note that word Muslim gets translated to its meaning when convenient.
In Arabic: 3:52.فَلَمَّا أَحَسَّ عِيسَى مِنْهُمُ الْكُفْرَ قَالَ مَنْ أَنصَارِي إِلَى اللّهِ قَالَ الْحَوَارِيُّونَ نَحْنُ أَنصَارُ اللّهِ آمَنَّا بِاللّهِ وَاشْهَدْ بِأَنَّا مُسْلِمُونَ
cyberpi said:What do you mean held to the fire? I was holding verses to the light, not to the fire. If you want to hold the Gospel of Thomas to the fire, that is your choice. I see truth in it but I only provided one verse and noted that it was the last verse. I never said it was part of the bible, but neither is everything about Jesus (pbuh) found in the bible.
Note, the disciples of Christ (pbuh) are considered Muslims:
Quran 3:52
Yusufali: When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
Pickthal: But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him).
Shakir: But when Isa perceived unbelief on their part, he said Who will be my helpers in Allah's way? The disciples said: We are helpers (in the way) of Allah: We believe in Allah and bear witness that we are submitting ones.
Khalifa: When Jesus sensed their disbelief, he said, "Who are my supporters towards GOD?" The disciples said, "We are GOD's supporters; we believe in GOD, and bear witness that we are submitters."
Note that word Muslim gets translated to its meaning when convenient.
فَلَمَّا أَحَسَّ عِيسَى مِنْهُمُ الْكُفْرَ قَالَ مَنْ أَنصَارِي إِلَى اللّهِ قَالَ الْحَوَارِيُّونَ نَحْنُ أَنصَارُ اللّهِ آمَنَّا بِاللّهِ وَاشْهَدْ بِأَنَّا مُسْلِمُونَ
Perhaps the Qu'ran states such, Cyberpi, but "Islam" did not exist at the time of Jesus and the Apostles. In fact Muhammad did not yet be conceived for another half a millenia...so, I suspect it would be hard pressed to prove Jesus' disciples were Muslims...
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