Post-theistic Christianity "Other view"

[Bandit]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity "Gnostic View"

Please show me how this is a better world we live in now days. Please any proof you can give me of that.

hey Dor
does intellectual suicide qualify?

 

[Bandit]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity

I fail to see the point. Why would not "miracles" and "super-natural" occurances happen? Because somebody with an over-educated mind and little else to contribute says these things are illogical?

Can't speak for anybody else, but I have seen miracles in my own life, that could not be explained by any rational process. I have seen many times similar occurances in other people's lives. So now, I am to disbelieve in miracles, not because of evidence, but because it is irrational?

It took a Pagan friend of mine to point out, that to a Creator of (a) universe(s), a virgin pregnancy and birth is child's play. Why would He have trouble making the sun apparently stand still? Why would He have any problem whatsoever doing whatever He deigns to do? Including manipulating formal religious and political structures?

Are we, miserable little pukes that we all are, the potter, or the clay? Do we make God in our own image, or do we strive to understand Him as He is?

I'm afraid that what I see so far is just another fragmentation excuse to further divide the institution of Christianity. No matter what we think, or feel, or pretend, or imagine; God is God. The question is, do we see Him for what He really is, or do we continue to paint Him as we desire Him to be? Do we invent a god in our own image to make "him" more palatable and less obsolete? My vote is no, but then, I know I do not speak for everybody.

this is real good Juan. if they cant explain it or give a scientific explanation then God cannot do it & it never happened. Jesus confirmed so many things that happened in the jewish scriptures from Abel this way, as he stood between God & man. People dont see because they lack faith but i too do not speak for everyone & i dont need to.

these people cried out to Jesus for deliverance...if i can just touch the hem of his garment i know i will be made whole, there was no medicine for leprosy...the same man who said it shall be as it was in the days of Noah, the same man who said he will tell some to depart from me, i never knew you. He gave us warning signs right along with his love that we would not be led astray.

a man reveals what he thinks & what is in his heart by what he speaks

 

[Quahom1]

Hi Faithfulservant,

Since Q and Juan don't seem to be around at the moment, I'll just put in a word. This thread is controversial, yet it also seems to belong more to the Christianity forum (so far) than any other place. I think the idea of stickying it is to denote it's somewhat special status in this respect, i.e., it explores issues that are not mainstream Christianity. I may not be completely correct in this, but that is my understanding.

lunamoth

It gives those that wish to discuss the issues concerning non mainstream Christian thought a chance to do so.

After all, regardless of our take on how Christianity should be "run", we are One in the Spirit, and One in the Lord...

This isn't the first time a particular thread has been stickied in the forum for a little while, and it won't be the last.

It has been so far, and extremely fine learning experience for many of us (an eye opener).

v/r

Q

 

[Quahom1]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity

...
a man reveals what he thinks & what is in his heart by what he speaks

Then what we have here on this thread is a lot of people who want to express what they think and feel, without being chastised, or ridiculed or scoffed at, for it.

I dare say, even a "leper" has a voice that should be earnestly paid attention to...

v/r

Q

 

[Bandit]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity

Then what we have here on this thread is a lot of people who want to express what they think and feel, without being chastised, or ridiculed or scoffed at, for it.

I dare say, even a "leper" has a voice that should be earnestly paid attention to...

v/r

Q

so allow this leper to do the same instead of being ridiculed & put down for every word he speaks

 

[Quahom1]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity

so allow this leper to do the same instead of being ridiculed & put down for every word he speaks

You mis-understood...I'm the leper...so are these people who express views contrary to main stream views of Christ.

You're clean.

v/r

Q

 

[Bandit]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity

I wish to throw out the cultural trappings because I see them as irrelevant to the core of Jesus' message. These supernatural ideas were added on by bishops and other church leaders throughout Christianity's history. They were voted on by committee in the First and Second Councils of Nicea (325 A.D. and later in 787) along with the idea of Jesus being a deity. Therefore, they are an unnecessary (IMV) add-on for me and many others living in this postmodern world. It's kindof like putting legs on a snake. I don't subscribe to New Age philosophy or Esoteric Christianity either. These ideas, to me, are just substituting mysticism in the place of supernaturalism. The Gnostics too were just as capable of creating elaborate cosmologies that have little to do with spirituality....all of these ideas are, to me, just epicycles on top of epicycles.

If I have to believe in what's found in the Nicene Creed in order to be a Christian, then I guess I'm not a Christian. (This last sentence wasn't directed to you or to anyone else) I care about labels even less though. We have to remember that Jesus wasn't a Christian either. He was, IMV, simply a God-presence that inspired many of the people who were lucky enough to witness his teachings and actions. So was the Buddha. This really is enough for me. These cultural trappings really are part and parcel of the INSTITUTIONS that have gone on to make-up today's Christian faith. I just like to think that if Jesus were here today, he would shrug his shoulders in ambivalence if these add-ons were to all disappear.

Respectfully yours,
Tony

hi Tony,
i dont think these things are add ons for the most part. what i see is some people who were trying to hold something together with the best of their understanding for the time. in some obscure way, i feel it was necessary.
i do not agree with Nicene ONLY for several reasons. No, Nicene has no right to destroy writings & what others believe neither do they have the right to condem others who see it differently. i also dont think it is right to use dogma & creeds by the way of force & this is what happened. in that respect we see things the same. if you take the POV that it is not valid or try to disassemble someone, then there is a problem. in it's own gathering this is also what Nicene Only does.
while i do not agree with that whole creed, i dont think it is that far off base.
i also consider what Jesus taught about using vain repititions & is another reason why i do not do that.
but this is important for gnostics & arians & whoever to realize they cant use force either by trying to take away something that someone else holds dear. what happens is, we end up setting our own cultural trappings & in some ways i think this is inevitable.
some Christians thought they could take away our bibles to substitute hierarchy & have it in only one language...well too bad, we will have it in all languages for everyone to study who wants to study regardless of who may have tampered with it along the way.

if people want to belong to institutions then they should be allowed to if they are more comfortable with that & on the other end, myself as an independant & the smallest of them all, i appreciate the same respect. i am finding the people who choose this walk alone with Jesus & who decide to let go of the ugly past, while also allowing for fellowship to be more in tune & that is how i wish it could be. Path of One, Juan, Seattlegal & some others here are awesome examples of this & i admire them for their independance, their faith & the courage to seek things out on their own.
i think it is possible for people to walk together who have disagreements, by discussing something different.

i dont think the fight for the title Christian is what Jesus is looking for.
you dont have to agree with me & i do not expect anyone here to agree, but this is what i see in a nutshell. now i will be off to move nine yards of mulch & get some fresh spring air.

peace & love in Jesus

 

[Dor]

It gives those that wish to discuss the issues concerning non mainstream Christian thought a chance to do so.

After all, regardless of our take on how Christianity should be "run", we are One in the Spirit, and One in the Lord...

This isn't the first time a particular thread has been stickied in the forum for a little while, and it won't be the last.

It has been so far, and extremely fine learning experience for many of us (an eye opener).

v/r

Q

Well everyone it seems has a place on these forums to post there thoughts and believes just seems the "mainstream"'s place is shrinking daily...but just cause you name your dog "cat" doesnt make it a cat....just cause you want to call your self christian after taking Christ out of it leaves you with a ian not what you want to be called.....calling Sponge and anything he writes Christian....is like calling a flame cold it just doesnt work

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Faithfulservant!

Good to see you around!

Could someone try explaining to me whats going on? Thanks

In light of what has gone on in the past, Q and I thought it best to specially mark this thread for the benefit of those with "mainstream" Christian views to note that the discussion was decidedly non-mainstream.

This is a bit of an experiment, to see if the two camps can co-exist peacefully. So far, so good in my estimation, but time will tell. By marking the thread in the manner we did, it allows our mainstream contributors a little notice that they may wish to avoid it if it seems too challenging or appears somehow threatening. We do not wish to offend anyone, least of all those who have taken the time to build this portion of the forum. At least, that is how I see this right now.

Hope this helps!

 

[Dor]

Re: Post-theistic Christianity

I wish to throw out the cultural trappings because I see them as irrelevant to the core of Jesus' message. These supernatural ideas were added on by bishops and other church leaders throughout Christianity's history. They were voted on by committee in the First and Second Councils of Nicea (325 A.D. and later in 787) along with the idea of Jesus being a deity. Respectfully yours,
Tony

I just have to ask where you get your information about Jesus being voted on as a deity at the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.

You ever here of..
Polycarp (70-155 A.D.)
Justin Martyr(100?-165?)
Ignatius of Antioch(died A.D. 98/117)
Ireanus(115-190)
Tertullian(160-215)
Origen(185-254)
Gospels
Matthew(50-70)
Mark(55-70)
Luke(before AD 62)
Acts(around AD 63)
John(80-90)

All well before the Council of Nicea and 325.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Dor!

Good to see you around!

Well everyone it seems has a place on these forums to post there thoughts and believes just seems the "mainstream"'s place is shrinking daily

I hardly see how one post is causing the mainstream section to be "shrinking daily"... Yes, there are concerns, and so far it seems those concerns are being handled well.

...but just cause you name your dog "cat" doesnt make it a cat....just cause you want to call your self christian after taking Christ out of it leaves you with a ian not what you want to be called.....calling Sponge and anything he writes Christian....is like calling a flame cold it just doesnt work

On some level I agree with you. However, if I were to exclude all of those who did not think or believe as I do, my world would grow very small. This is an exercise, not in acceptance of alternate views, but of being able to disagree with respect. There are many whose views I disagree with, yet I still love them and care about them. This thread is a chance to look beyond our disagreements, and at least be civil towards each other.

 

[path_of_one]

Excellent post path! You might be surprised if you knew how little I disagree with what you've said.



I don't know if this is going to make any sense, but I think that turning the metaphysical into an actual event destroys both the mystery and the miracle. This is a uniquely modern problem. You may have gathered from what I've said that I only value deductive and rational reasoning, but that's not true. What I'm leary of is rationalizing the mystical. I'm not saying that the metaphysical should be kept strictly seperate from the physical, just that the symbiosis, if you will, of the two, it seems to me, is destroyed by forcing the mystical to become deducible. (I've been reading stuff on postmodernism and it's turned my mind into a pretzel, so if that doesn't make any sense don't feel bad.)

I'm not sure what you mean by "supernatural". I see all of life as a sacred, magical experience. Could you give me an example of something supernatural that you've experienced? I mean, something that defies the laws of nature.

Chris

OH! OK- we're far closer than I thought. I misunderstood you. Heh-heh- easy to do in these sorts of communication forums with the lack of face-to-face contact.

Yes, basically I agree with this, at least for myself. I don't focus on the literal, but rather the meaning for me, for my life, behind the event. I think both the camps that debunk and the camps that try to prove how everything miraculous occured are missing the point- these are stories on which to meditate for deeper wisdom and understanding. The Bible to me is a text that is personally transformative, if I read it with a spirit open to God. If I'm just worrying if there are any other accounts of people living inside whales or virgins getting pregnant, I'm wasting my time, in my opinion. That isn't the point of the story. This is the part of Spong I agree with. But that doesn't mean I think we ought to get rid of all the stories and miracles either. A shift in focus rather than a shift in text is what I personally follow. For example, all the stories about Jesus working miracles- I don't think we should get rid of them or ignore them, but rather that our focus should be on their meaning for our own lives, rather than a simple memorization, acceptance, and recitation of what Jesus did. There is deep meaning for me in Jesus healing the woman who bled for years when she touched the hem of His garment, of healing the blind and deaf and mute, of healing those who could not walk, of healing the leper. I believe there is symbolism there. It is not that Jesus could not or did not do these miracles- I believe He did. But I don't think whether He did or not matters as much as the symbolic meaning of these healings and what it implies for my own life. He can take away my limitations (my failure to hear, see, speak the truth), my weaknesses, my suffering, and my sin. And all it takes is faith and my reaching out to Him. But without the stories of the miracles, without the stories of the literal events, I would not have had the opportunity to draw these conclusions.

As for the supernatural- I do see the world the way you describe, which was partly what I was getting at. The natural world itself, to me, is sacred and magical, as you put it. There is no clear boundary for me what is natural and what is supernatural. What I was saying is that I have experienced things that most would classify as supernatural. I make no distinction for myself.

For example, as a child I had visions of world events happening in other countries. I was a sheltered kid and poor- we had no TV, no news, and I was not told about these things by others. But I knew them anyway and started telling people as soon as I could talk. I had visions of God, heaven, etc. starting about five. The intensity of these experiences wax and wane over the years. I've seen people, including my mother, healed from near death when nothing was being done for them by medicine. I often can sense people's emotions, thoughts, health, and even energies and spirits. I'm generally right. (Edited to add- about when I sense others' thoughts/emotions/health. Of course, no way to tell for the energies/spirits and I'm often wrong about LOTS of other things! )

Are these events natural or supernatural? On the one hand, it is entirely natural to me that I receive information sometimes the way that I do. I think there is, in some ways, a pool of information and thoughts out there in the world and sometimes my brain picks up whatever is out there. I think it is natural to experience God, and if one is attentive, other spiritual entities. On the other hand, society and science defines most of this stuff as supernatural. I don't think these things go against the laws of nature, I just think we don't understand the laws very well yet. I look out at the world and see one that is filled with energies, forces, individual spirits, and God. I see this as the foundation for the physical manifestation that is more apparent, if that makes any sense.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

I don't focus on the literal, but rather the meaning for me, for my life, behind the event. I think both the camps that debunk and the camps that try to prove how everything miraculous occured are missing the point- these are stories on which to meditate for deeper wisdom and understanding. The Bible to me is a text that is personally transformative, if I read it with a spirit open to God. If I'm just worrying if there are any other accounts of people living inside whales or virgins getting pregnant, I'm wasting my time, in my opinion. That isn't the point of the story. This is the part of Spong I agree with. But that doesn't mean I think we ought to get rid of all the stories and miracles either. A shift in focus rather than a shift in text is what I personally follow.

Yes, I completely agree. You have a gift for expression which I greatly admire!

I see a great deal of value in ritual and symbolic expression. I'm not a particularly "overt" ceremonialist, however. What I mean is that I don't have a special area in my psyche set aside for big ceremonial productions. I have little rituals and ceremonial stuff going on all the time. Really I'm celebrating the natural and mundane. Every little thing becomes meaningful and worth observing. It's amazing to see the Logos playing its patterns through everything and know that I'm participating, and that it's all connected.

Today I was planing a piece of wood and just loving how my body worked with the material and the tool, and watching the curly little shavings come off. There are elements of the mystical, ritual, cermonial involved in all the little things we do and observe. The more I look the more I see. The more i see the more I am.

Chris

 

[Dor]

Hey just one thought on the whole evolving or devolving state of things.....if we are evolving that would mean we are getting better, right??

Well the ark was built by amateurs while the Titanic was built by professionals yet the ark made it 40 days and nights while Titanic made it 3 hrs....

 

[Dor]

Hey just one thought on the whole evolving or devolving state of things.....if we are evolving that would mean we are getting better, right??

Well the ark was built by amateurs while the Titanic was built by professionals yet the ark made it 40 days and nights while Titanic made it 3 hrs....

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Yeah, but the ark took over a hundred years to build! Imagine what old Noah could've done with a sawzall!

Chris

 

[Bandit]

Hey just one thought on the whole evolving or devolving state of things.....if we are evolving that would mean we are getting better, right??

Well the ark was built by amateurs while the Titanic was built by professionals yet the ark made it 40 days and nights while Titanic made it 3 hrs....

i think the ark made it for several months because that is how God is to the faithful. Noah followed the directions & even the amateurs today agree the directions to build it say it was correct for that flood. God is perfect in all his ways.
Dor, i still believe in Noah & a real Ark & i always will, so you are not alone here. i know some people make fun of me for belieivng that but it does not bother me any more.

 

[Dor]

Dor, i still believe in Noah & a real Ark & i always will, so you are not alone here. i know some people make fun of me for belieivng that but it does not bother me any more.

No Bandit I know we are not alone and people do make fun but guess what we are not the first ones they have made fun of and we will NEVER be alone.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Kindest Regards, Faithfulservant!

Good to see you around!


In light of what has gone on in the past, Q and I thought it best to specially mark this thread for the benefit of those with "mainstream" Christian views to note that the discussion was decidedly non-mainstream.

This is a bit of an experiment, to see if the two camps can co-exist peacefully. So far, so good in my estimation, but time will tell. By marking the thread in the manner we did, it allows our mainstream contributors a little notice that they may wish to avoid it if it seems too challenging or appears somehow threatening. We do not wish to offend anyone, least of all those who have taken the time to build this portion of the forum. At least, that is how I see this right now.

Hope this helps!

Ok Im going to say this.. because Ive read parts of Spong's book.. I repeat.. I would not put him on my bookshelf.. he rejects every fundamental belief I have.. the 5 fundamentals of Christianity he rejects and says so himself.. That ppl who consider themselves Christians believe him MORE viable than the word of God tells me that we are not on the same belief system.

Many of us have been taking a stand on this forum against those who wish to discredit our beliefs its been a lot of work having to defend our faith to ppl rather than being able to have a healthy discussion on those beliefs.. Im not going to mention names but let me tell you I have some sore spots from them still.

I wonder if thipps would sticky a thread about an ex-muslim turned Christian posting his newfound disbliefs in the Quran.. or would Bananabrain post a sticky about Jew for Jesus stating why he believes Jesus is the Messiah..?? Im all woman and very emotional maybe but I feel that you and Q have both betrayed the "posters that have built this forum to where it is" by allowing this thread to continue on in this manner.. This grand experiment of yours feels like a slap in the face to those of us who have fought for the same peace of home feeling that Islam and Judiasm forums have accomplished. We have to fight daily against that which wishes to persecute us for our beliefs.. and we finally get as close as we can get here on this forum and something like this is 2 steps back..

I dont know what you and Q visualize for this forum and I recognize that none of us have a choice but to be quiet and put up with it... so be it.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Just wanted to point out that Spong is an Episcopal Bishop. You can't get much more mainstream than that. Secondly, minus his own personal ideosyncracies, what Spong is reporting vis a vis the questionable historicity of the gospel accounts reflects the current point of view of objective biblical scholarship. The fact that this information is intentionally prevented from filtering down to the parishoner in the pew shows just how dislexic the dichotomy between religious academia and the rank and file is. IOW, what Spong is saying has been an open secret for some time, but no one at the top of the church hierarchy has risked informing the parishoners for fear of disillusioning them. I suppose the organization can ill afford to lose the financial support of its members.

Chris