Post-theistic Christianity "Other view"

[lunamoth]

Ok Im going to say this.. because Ive read parts of Spong's book.. I repeat.. I would not put him on my bookshelf.. he rejects every fundamental belief I have.. the 5 fundamentals of Christianity he rejects and says so himself.. That ppl who consider themselves Christians believe him MORE viable than the word of God tells me that we are not on the same belief system.

Many of us have been taking a stand on this forum against those who wish to discredit our beliefs its been a lot of work having to defend our faith to ppl rather than being able to have a healthy discussion on those beliefs.. Im not going to mention names but let me tell you I have some sore spots from them still.

I wonder if thipps would sticky a thread about an ex-muslim turned Christian posting his newfound disbliefs in the Quran.. or would Bananabrain post a sticky about Jew for Jesus stating why he believes Jesus is the Messiah..?? Im all woman and very emotional maybe but I feel that you and Q have both betrayed the "posters that have built this forum to where it is" by allowing this thread to continue on in this manner.. This grand experiment of yours feels like a slap in the face to those of us who have fought for the same peace of home feeling that Islam and Judiasm forums have accomplished. We have to fight daily against that which wishes to persecute us for our beliefs.. and we finally get as close as we can get here on this forum and something like this is 2 steps back..

I dont know what you and Q visualize for this forum and I recognize that none of us have a choice but to be quiet and put up with it... so be it.

I'm sorry Faithful but I think you are being very unfair here. The Five Fundamentals that you have as the foundation of your faith do not define Christianity for everyone, just as the Nicene Creed, the Book of Mormon, the Watchtower publications, etc. do not. There is a huge range of belief in Christianity and even the fact that you adhere to a non-denominational Bible based Christianity is possible only because during the Reformation some courageous souls spoke out against the dominate authority and definition of Christianity of the day. Whether they were right to do so (and I think it was part of God's plan) will only be known to us on the other side, but I think you must agree that they were right.

No one is asking you to agree with them. For goodness sake, most of the replies have disagreed with the OP! Mine included, although some took liberties to spin more seeming agreement than I gave in their replies. The mere fact that these posts are taking up electrons on this forum does not constitute an attack on anyone's beliefs nor a show of disrespect for Christianity. It is NOT the same as posting a Messianic Jews post in Judaism or a Christian convert post in the Islam board, although it might be a lot like the very civil and interesting conversation between BananaBrain and dauer in the Questions about Judaism thread on the Judaism board here.

You are a valued member here and I always enjoy hearing your perspective, even though I disagree with many things that you say. And you probably disagree with many things I say. But for goodness sake, my beliefs are about as mainstream as you can get! The OP pushes the limit on what is Christiantiy, and in my book anyway it actually goes too far. But, where is a conversation like this going to take place, where those who question just what exactly is Christianity and where they fit in, and those who reply to them going to go? My take on is that if you disagree, well, say so and say why and back it up as you do so very well. (Which is why I especially enjoy reading your posts). But lets not take offense and stop all conversation because the topic is controversial. Please. You know that if this conversation were put in the alternative area, where it could still end up depending on how things go, many Christians with valuable things to contribute to the conversation (such as yourself) will simply stay away. And that is a loss.

Peace,
lunamoth

 

[Faithfulservant]

Just wanted to point out that Spong is an Episcopal Bishop. You can't get much more mainstream than that. Secondly, minus his own personal ideosyncracies, what Spong is reporting vis a vis the questionable historicity of the gospel accounts reflects the current point of view of objective biblical scholarship. The fact that this information is intentionally prevented from filtering down to the parishoner in the pew shows just how dislexic the dichotomy between religious academia and the rank and file is. IOW, what Spong is saying has been an open secret for some time, but no one at the top of the church hierarchy has risked informing the parishoners for fear of disillusioning them. I suppose the organization can ill afford to lose the financial support of its members.

Chris

His "personal idiosyncracies" are blasphemous...

Christ wasnt buried in a tomb he had to have been buried as a criminal.. which denies the OT messianic prophecy that Christ fulfilled..

Judas Iscariot was invented as an excuse to persecute Jews??

The virginal conception was a mistranslation??

He doesnt believe in miracles so Jesus could not have been resurrected bodily??

This guy is a people pleaser saying what ppl want to hear.. only using scripture when it benefits his sugar coated anti Christ propaganda.

If this is considered mainstream theology then I dont want any part of it..

The fact that you say Spong has secret access to information that denies what Christians for 2k years have believed seriously denotes a bit of egomania shared with this preacher of satan world views.. I cannot in all honestly take anything you say seriously and I believe that you are posting stuff like that to get a rise out of posters on this board. Believe it or not.. this is a normal occurance here.

We must all be a bunch of monkeys that cant be disillusioned for fear of losing our stash of bananas!! Give me a break.

 

[lunamoth]

FWIW, Spong is far from being universally embraced by mainstream Christianity, even among Episcoplains, and Episcopalian Priests. As I and so many others in this thread have already said, he is throwing out the pillars of the Church. If what he proposes is what was represented in YNOTS posts, then he is suggesting secular humanism with Jesus as a figurehead, not a Christianity I could accept.

And, having said that again, I do not read Spong's books, not because I feel like I'd be blaspheming and inviting the anti-Christ into my livingroom, but because so far from all I've heard, there is simply nothing there for me.

sheesh,
lunamoth

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

His "personal idiosyncracies" are blasphemous...

Christ wasnt buried in a tomb he had to have been buried as a criminal.. which denies the OT messianic prophecy that Christ fulfilled..

Judas Iscariot was invented as an excuse to persecute Jews??

The virginal conception was a mistranslation??

He doesnt believe in miracles so Jesus could not have been resurrected bodily??

This guy is a people pleaser saying what ppl want to hear.. only using scripture when it benefits his sugar coated anti Christ propaganda.

If this is considered mainstream theology then I dont want any part of it..

The fact that you say Spong has secret access to information that denies what Christians for 2k years have believed seriously denotes a bit of egomania shared with this preacher of satan world views.. I cannot in all honestly take anything you say seriously and I believe that you are posting stuff like that to get a rise out of posters on this board. Believe it or not.. this is a normal occurance here.

We must all be a bunch of monkeys that cant be disillusioned for fear of losing our stash of bananas!! Give me a break.

Now wait a minute...I didn't say the parishoners are stupid or dislexic, just that there is a dislexic dichotomy between religious academia and the parishoners. Spong broke the unspoken rule that you don't publish this stuff outside the cloisters of academia.

Chris

 

[Faithfulservant]

I think what my real problem is.. I cant stand drama.. I live with 3 teenage girls and my world is flat out drama.. I believe the bible I believe that we are not supposed to argue Christ and the bible.. we are supposed to share it.. I live by this. I dont want to have to argue whether the bible is true or not.. I do want to share why I believe the bible is true.. Thats what I thought my freedom was on this forum.. I believe this thread is an opening for discord and my battle is in trying to maintain a peaceful place to discuss differing beliefs....

I believed this forum was so perfect for me because I had an opportunity to Share my beliefs in a healthy discussion rather than argue my beliefs in angst and drama.. if you cant see what Im saying luna than I dont know what else to say..

I always admired your gentle peacefulness even though we dont always see eye to eye.. I would not have thought you would embrace a free for all mentality where anyone can post what they want with no consequence and that is my fear as a result of this thread.

 

[lunamoth]

I think what my real problem is.. I cant stand drama.. I live with 3 teenage girls and my world is flat out drama.. I believe the bible I believe that we are not supposed to argue Christ and the bible.. we are supposed to share it.. I live by this. I dont want to have to argue whether the bible is true or not.. I do want to share why I believe the bible is true.. Thats what I thought my freedom was on this forum.. I believe this thread is an opening for discord and my battle is in trying to maintain a peaceful place to discuss differing beliefs....

I believed this forum was so perfect for me because I had an opportunity to Share my beliefs in a healthy discussion rather than argue my beliefs in angst and drama.. if you cant see what Im saying luna than I dont know what else to say..

I always admired your gentle peacefulness even though we dont always see eye to eye.. I would not have thought you would embrace a free for all mentality where anyone can post what they want with no consequence and that is my fear as a result of this thread.

Faithful, I do not embrace a free-for-all here and neither does anyone on the staff here. Frankly I have been feeling quite on the outside here in the Christianity forum for a long time and it got to the point where I started to resent having to preface everything I said with, 'well, this is not mainstream belief..." And what can I say but this thread, which now has totally derailed, seemed to me like a peaceful discussion of ideas. I'm just trying not to make judgement of whether they qualify as True-Believer ideas, and I've said time and again that they do not strike me as part of what I consider Christianity.

What is ironic, and now I am going to be the one guilty of making it personal, is that Path of One and I have almost exactly the same beliefs, but I happen to see myself as part of mainstream and she is, well, Path of One. And I guess it must be just that little bit of distance she puts herself from Christianity that makes her acceptable here, while the Nicene creed, Preists, and Sacraments creed somehow makes it OK to dis my religion. Because that is what happens. But I try not to complain about it all the time.

So anyway, what I am trying to say is that while I do not want fights and a free-for all here, I would greatly appreciate it if we could get a little air in here and not feel like Christianity is under attack when someone poses a challenging idea. But, well, I'm starting to give up on this.

I do respect you, and I'm sorry if any of the above offends,
lunamoth

 

[Faithfulservant]

Faithful, I do not embrace a free-for-all here and neither does anyone on the staff here. Frankly I have been feeling quite on the outside here in the Christianity forum for a long time and it got to the point where I started to resent having to preface everything I said with, 'well, this is not mainstream belief..." And what can I say but this thread, which now has totally derailed, seemed to me like a peaceful discussion of ideas. I'm just trying not to make judgement of whether they qualify as True-Believer ideas, and I've said time and again that they do not strike me as part of what I consider Christianity.

What is ironic, and now I am going to be the one guilty of making it personal, is that Path of One and I have almost exactly the same beliefs, but I happen to see myself as part of mainstream and she is, well, Path of One. And I guess it must be just that little bit of distance she puts herself from Christianity that makes her acceptable here, while the Nicene creed, Preists, and Sacraments creed somehow makes it OK to dis my religion. Because that is what happens. But I try not to complain about it all the time.

So anyway, what I am trying to say is that while I do not want fights and a free-for all here, I would greatly appreciate it if we could get a little air in here and not feel like Christianity is under attack when someone poses a challenging idea. But, well, I'm starting to give up on this.

I do respect you, and I'm sorry if any of the above offends,
lunamoth

Im sorry luna I had no idea..I have never dissed on those three beliefs anywhere.. I wouldnt do that. I dont "dis" on anyones belief.. I do dis on ppl that dis on MY beliefs however.. lol. You are loving person and Im sorry that you have felt left out.. my intentions were pure if clumsy and I'll stop making an issue out of this.. I dont think I was getting my point across anyways..

 

[Dor]

Luna Im sorry if any of my posts have felt like dises on you....think most people here know I dont dis on denominations as such I might disagree with people on some of the beliefs trust me....I know me and Q have a few but I dont think we have ever dissed each other or held it against each otherand I seriously hope I havent done that or made it feel like I have done that to you...If you notice I only tend to dis or get worked up about very few things people attacking Christ, people attacking the bible and mormans which I just dont even post about usually now. I am very sorry if I have made you feel unwelcome or unwanted trust me I love your posts and they have never seemed far off to me...heck since you brought her up I will admit I love Paths post but there are times Ive thought where the hell did that come from and I hope she is doing fine.

 

[wil]

I believed this forum was so perfect for me because I had an opportunity to Share my beliefs in a healthy discussion rather than argue my beliefs in angst and drama.. if you cant see what Im saying luna than I dont know what else to say..

I think you are 100% correct...this is a perfect forum to share beliefs. I want to be clear, while I used your quote as a kickoff on this post, it is not the basis of all the thought and I am not pointing fingers yet talking in generalities.

Just because my beliefs or any of our beliefs differ from yours....why is that required to institute an argument, angst or drama. Surely we are all aware as we walk down the street 100% of the people we meet have different opinions and beliefs than us regarding politics, religion, social behavior, favorite TV shows and past times...we can relish in our differences no need to argue.

Some think Spong has written books worthy of discussion...some say he is a people pleaser...With the attacks his work has here and I imagine the mail, email, and threats he gets...I would think he is anything but a people pleaser.

No need for name calling, stating that others thoughts opinions or beliefs are hogwash, this is exploring the texts of the past and the future of a faith. All thru time this discussion has been frought with opposing opinions...why are we expecting it to change?

I love the discussions here....ALL of them! I see the light of Christ and the passion in each and everyone of you, it is obvious in your words. But when our words themselves defy the way of Christ, while claiming to have the one and only word of Christ...something is amiss.

 

[lunamoth]

I completely agree Wil. The point of my protest here was not that we should never discuss, challenge or criticize things that are part of my or ayone's particular beliefs (and just because they are different from another's does not mean that I hold them any less passionately). Things that get right to the core of the Christianity held by myself, Q, Thomas and a few others are challenged as frequently as the literal-factualness of the Bible, but it does not raise an outcry of 'this is no longer a Christian forum.' I was not feeling like an outsider because my particular religion is challenged, but because I feel like there is little tolerance for my own explorations of Christianity.

So, Dor and Faithful, neither of you need to apologize to me, although thank you for your kind words and support.

I'm not sure I have anything left for this conversation either.

peace,
lunamoth

 

[YNOT]

What I love about the members of this forum is that you are all able to discuss things as adults and, even when there are misunderstandings, you are further able to clarify statements, listen intently and respond with respect. This dialogue between peoples of differing faiths, opinions, interpretations is magical in its own right. I am proud to be a member of this forum. We are all clearly among noble minds.

 

[Quahom1]

What I love about the members of this forum is that you are all able to discuss things as adults and, even when there are misunderstandings, you are further able to clarify statements, listen intently and respond with respect. This dialogue between peoples of differing faiths, opinions, interpretations is magical in its own right. I am proud to be a member of this forum. We are all clearly among noble minds.

Thanks YNot, that was a nice thought.

Much appreciated

v/r

Q

 

[truthseeker]

PHEW!!!

This is the raciest thread yet!!!!

This was the first that I had ever heard of Spong. I downloaded his assessment of the pontificate of Pope John Paul II. Strangely enough, I enjoyed quite a bit of what he wrote but I also thinks that he throws the baby out with the bath.

While I may wander in my ideas of Christianity, I do understand that Christianity has established a foundation and without that foundation Christianity would probably have never reached the height that it is. As long as that foundation is secure, it will not die. Most of us has gone through some form of transformation. Those of us who has used Christianity in the transformation will argue for the fundamentals because that is core to coming out the other end in one piece. Those who have transformed outside of the world of Christianity but still recognise Christianity as part of who they have become will delight more an enlightened perspective because not only are they Christianity, they are other things too.

 

[Quahom1]

PHEW!!!

This is the raciest thread yet!!!!

This was the first that I had ever heard of Spong. I downloaded his assessment of the pontificate of Pope John Paul II. Strangely enough, I enjoyed quite a bit of what he wrote but I also thinks that he throws the baby out with the bath.

While I may wander in my ideas of Christianity, I do understand that Christianity has established a foundation and without that foundation Christianity would probably have never reached the height that it is. As long as that foundation is secure, it will not die. Most of us has gone through some form of transformation. Those of us who has used Christianity in the transformation will argue for the fundamentals because that is core to coming out the other end in one piece. Those who have transformed outside of the world of Christianity but still recognise Christianity as part of who they have become will delight more an enlightened perspective because not only are they Christianity, they are other things too.

That, my friend is the whole point. Christianity has a rock solid foundation. But we shouldn't be arguing about what kind of roof to put on it...

 

[path_of_one]

heck since you brought her up I will admit I love Paths post but there are times Ive thought where the hell did that come from and I hope she is doing fine.

I am doing fine, thank you! This brought a giggle to my afternoon- thank you! Hee-hee... if you're ever curious where it comes from, I'd be glad to answer. I of course fully admit some of it comes out of subjective experience, but what would any of our thoughts about God be without that?

And Luna, I have noticed that we are quite similar in beliefs. I have thought it is interesting you are mainstream while I have long felt I wasn't. But in looking at the "Faith Group Distinction" thread, I'm all over the place. I'm fundamental, mainline, and liberal according to those definitions. ACK! My thoughts on that over there.

Honestly though, Luna, I chose Path of One because that's how I wound up feeling in the world. One thing I've loved about this forum is that although, as Dor says, some ideas I have may apparently come out of left field, I haven't been shoved outside the fold by our more fundamentalist/conservative members. In all truthfulness, it's brought me back to feeling that I can claim to be a Christian, at least sometimes, though I still don't press the issue if others disagree with me. I've been shoved outside the fold by enough others (though I admit it's a hit or miss thing- some people feel I'm totally Christian and others a total heretic ) to just get tired of fighting over the title of "Christian." I follow Christ. I love Jesus. He's my Lord and my Savior. If the rest of the stuff I think makes others uncomfortable with me being in their "camp," OK. I won't argue about it or demand that others acknowledge me as a Christian. It is nice to feel fellowship with others who follow Christ, but I must be true to my own convictions, my own experiences of God first. So, I claim a Path of One. I'm not looking to convince other people of my views, nor am I looking to be accepted, but just to discuss, to learn from others as the Spirit leads, to love as much as I can, to share my excitement about God- whether here, or in church, or in the real world.

I will confess it is a little strange to me, though this is OT from this thread, so is perhaps a bit better in the denominations thread or something... that quite a few Christians from the newer denominations or non-denominational churches (which are, in a sense, their own denomination with their own ideas and practices) are increasingly calling the older varieties of Christianity less Christian somehow- the Catholics, Episcopalians/Anglicans, Amish/Mennonites, Lutherans, Quakers- all have been questioned as legitimate forms of Christianity by people I know who are Christians of the more "modern"/recent churches. I find it odd, and a little sad. OK, a lot sad. We are all in the Body of Christ to me, and as Q puts it, I wish we all (not this forum necessarily, but the world in general) would focus more on the foundation (Christ) and less on the roof (doctrine, ritual) and certainly less on the decor (all the really inconsequential details that we bicker and nit-pick about).

My slightly more than 2c.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Well I figured out why I had such an issue with this thread..

Some of you might remember this thread from our past and those of you that dont might find some interest in it..


http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2235

This was ALL about Spong and his book and lo and behold we are going through it again.. and this time Spong is a sticky thread.

Im curious if the moderators remember this one.

Oh yeah it might be pertinent to add that the title of the thread is "Rescuing the Bible from the Fundamentalists" which prompted me to create the thread titled "The Fundamentals of Christianity" in defense of my faith..

 

[Dor]

Thats right we have been through it before thanks for the blast from the past......makes me wonder how Basstian is doing?

 

[Bandit]

yah. this is a SS thing all over again & it is only a matter of time til that spirit reveals itself.

Rescuing the Bible & Jesus divorced the Bible. YUCKY teaching!

i was thinking about what Seatlegal had been posting on Thess 2 & you know she & you both together made a confiirmation for me when i went to that sticky...lo & behold there was Thess. 2 that i had put up a year ago. the whole chapter is very meaty & full of instruction for us.

2 Thessalonians 2


9. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


JESUS taught this same exact thing.

 

[Quahom1]

Well I figured out why I had such an issue with this thread..

Some of you might remember this thread from our past and those of you that dont might find some interest in it..


http://www.comparative-religion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2235

This was ALL about Spong and his book and lo and behold we are going through it again.. and this time Spong is a sticky thread.

Im curious if the moderators remember this one.

Oh yeah it might be pertinent to add that the title of the thread is "Rescuing the Bible from the Fundamentalists" which prompted me to create the thread titled "The Fundamentals of Christianity" in defense of my faith..

No, FS I did not know about that thread. However I read it just now and read what Brian stated at the end:

I, Brian:

It *is* a good topic - but started for the wrong reasons.

This particular thread however, was not started to attack anyone. And this thread isn't about rescuing the Bible from anyone. This was set up to allow those with different views (from mainstream) to express them, without retaliation.

If you recall, this isn't the first time we have allowed a thread to remain at the top for awhile. We did the same for the Jehovah's witnesses to express their views. And I'd do the same for Mormons or Catholics or anyone.

It is not a permanent thing, and frankly I have learned quite a bit about all sides of Christianity, that I didn't know before (some of it not so good I'm afraid).

CR neither condones nor condemns people's particular views, and encourages discussion and questions. CR does not state which view is the correct one or the incorrect one.

It should be noted however, that there are certain sects of Christianity that are 1800 years older than others. And respect for any person is always in good taste, even if there is dis-agreement.

If I recall history correctly, Thomas Jefferson (then president of the United States) personally assured a relatively new sect of Christians in a letter, of their God given right to express themselves, and to worship as they deemed fit, with no interference from anyone, not even the State. They were the Ani Baptists of New England.

v/r

Q

 

[Quahom1]

yah. this is a SS thing all over again & it is only a matter of time til that spirit reveals itself.

Rescuing the Bible & Jesus divorced the Bible. YUCKY teaching!

i was thinking about what Seatlegal had been posting on Thess 2 & you know she & you both together made a confiirmation for me when i went to that sticky...lo & behold there was Thess. 2 that i had put up a year ago. the whole chapter is very meaty & full of instruction for us.

2 Thessalonians 2


9. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


JESUS taught this same exact thing.

This is in no way an SS thing. I personally take affront to the veiled insults.

This is an expression of free speech, an expression of "Christian ideals" whether or not everyone agrees with them. Yes, the spirit will out, as it is already showing. I think it is revealing itself as the spirit of disdain, intolerance and contempt.

Q