what convinced you your faith is the truth?

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Identifications are made and the story is detailed in Dawnbreakers, I'll just summarize.

When Baha`u'llah was confined to Baghadad (and before He advanced His Own claim to Revelation) a council of Mullahs opposed to the Babi's in general issued a challenge to Baha`u'llah to produce a miracle for their education. They sent a junior of their council to Baghdad to make the request of Baha`u'llah. The messenger, once in the presence of Baha`u'llah found himself to be very meek and apologetic for the council's arrogance and Baha`u'llah received him kindly. Baha`iu'llah granted the request, He made only two stipulations: First that the council should agree on the miracle that they requested; and second, that once the miracle was produced the council should publicly declare their belief in the message of the Bab and become faithful Babi's.

The messenger returned to Najaf and delivered Baha`u'llah's reply. The council spent weeks in agitated discussion, the result was that they never replied to Baha`u'llah because they feared the outcome if He might actually produce such a miracle and they were forced to comply with the agreement to accept formally and publically the Revelation of the Bab.

The messenger became so disgusted with the attitude and behavior of the council that he broke his alignment with those assembled Mullahs, and travelled to Baghdad to embrace the Babi faith.

In my opinion, Baha`u'llah provided the miracle clearly and without equivocation.

Other opinions may vary. That is the problem with miracles in general.

Regards,
Scott
 
I don't know if Imran is still participating or not, so I'm not sure if I should address him or not. So I am going to address myself to the opriginal topic (How I know that the baha`i Faith is true) and to his questions which SEEm to attempt to undermine the authority of the Bab as The Returned Twelfth Imam.

First the Bab IS the returned 12th Imam just as John the Baptist was Elijah returned. John denied it, Jesus affirmed it. John made clear that John's authority ended at the feet of Jesus Christ. The Bab made sure to affirm over and over that He Whom God Shall Make Manifest had the authority to anull the Bab's Book with but a single word. Baha`i's believe that Baha`u'llah is clearly He WHom God Shall Make Manifest.

Once Baha`i's accept that the Bab was a Manifestation and that Baha`u'llah was the Manifestation of God with the power to anull the Bab's Revelation with but a single word, the original question of this topic is clearly answered.

The only "authoritative" interpretation of the Baha'i sacred texts (including the works of the Bab) is from the utterances and writings of Abdu'l Baha and Shoghi Effendi. Other than what those two empowered individuals say, their is no tafseer in the Baha`i Faith. It does no good at all to look for such tafseer where it does not exist.

The versions of the Bab's Writings which are NOT in the hands of the Baha`i Archives are suspect of forgery, distortion and outright falsification by those who hated the faith from its inception.

Therefore the documents represented in such websites as Imran's are not authentic at all, and have no authority whatsoever.

Does that sufficiently handle the issues?

Regards,
Scott
 
Postmaster said:
What are the regular rules of nature?

What i find odd is Bahá'u'lláh's son died while praying he fell through the celling, Bahá'u'lláh said God took him as a sacrifice? Now when Mohammed's son died and a lunar eclipse happened on that very day, Mohammed explained why the eclipse happened in a pretty logical view and wasn't due to his son dieing. If I'm not mistaken on this.

"An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human being." " - Mohammed

Whereas it seems Bahá'u'lláh could only justify it with pagan thoughts consideing how important reasoning is in the Baha'i faith.

And if it was a friend of Christ's that died he would bring him back from the dead! Take for instance Saint Lazerus who's tomb is in my hometown in Cyprus.

Everyones regular rules of nature are different, including the animals.
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Yes, but was the darkness following the deaths of Jesus Christ or the Bab (July 9th, 1850 in Tabriz in Persia) the result of an eclipse?

I don't think so. The darkness after Christ's expiration on the cross cannot be confirmed to date, time and exact place (we do not know where Golgotha really was).

The events on that day in Tabriz are historically recorded as to time, place and location and there was no eclipse at that time, though the darkness and windstorm is clearly authenticated in the narratives of many observers.

Regards,
Scott
 
imranshaykh said:
I am not, I repeat, am not antagonistic to the Bahai Faith. Once again, you have dragged my web site into this discussion.

The Bahais interpret the Quran whatever way they feel best. Most of the times, I receive an interpretation of the Quran, which is not even available in Bahai books - it is a figment of some Bahai's imagination. To an average Muslim, this constitutes an attack on Islam. You are using the Quran itself to make a point which has no standing in Islam. I have not taken any offence to that. Everytime a point is made in this fashion, I respectfully seek the references for the same. And everytime I do that, my web site is dragged into the discussion. I see no logic for that.

If you wish to have the version of Tafseere' Surah Kausar, please let me know I have it in PDF format from the h-net.com web site. It is in Arabic.

So all in all,

May I please know if there is an official version of Tafseere' Kauthar, Sahifae Adaliyah, Dalaaelus Sabah, Qayyamul Asma of the Bab. If not, can we see an injunction from the UHJ or any authority that these books should not be read. In that case, one can safely skip these books in favour of others.

Also, may I know which prophecies of the 12th Imam did the Bab fulfill?

Regards
Imran
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Baha'is believe that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ, Muhammad etc. ALL books were sealed until judgment day. Baha'u'llah had the power and authority to interpret and explain versus of all sacred sripture. I asure you Baha'is on these boards are not pulling from their butt, but speaking with Baha'u'llah's interpretations in mind.
 
If Jesus is to be accepted as "God in the Flesh" simply because He had no genetic father, then why should not Adam be even more revered as 'God in the Flesh', since He had neither genetic father nor genetic mother?

Regards,
Scott
 
Postmaster said:
Some Hebrew prophesises claimed the messiah was already existing in heaven before he would be revealed on earth. Where is Christ's grave? and where is Baha'u'llah's?
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Well sir
I would guide you to the grave of ChristJesus or YeshuaMessiahMoshiach or IssaMasih s/o MaryamMeriumMary.It is located in Mohallah Khanyar, Sirinagar, Kashmir, India. The local people remember by his name as Yuz Asaf, which seems a bit closer in sound to Yeshua than Jesus is from Yeshua. Please access: Al Islam - Jesus in India
Or Yuz Asaf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi - a faith in Islam
 
"Originally Posted by Postmaster
Some Hebrew prophesises claimed the messiah was already existing in heaven before he would be revealed on earth. Where is Christ's grave? and where is Baha'u'llah's?"

There is only ONE Manifestation of God in the spiritual sense, each time He comes to earth it is the same "Word Made Flesh" but in different flesh--as Baha`i's are guided to view it.

Therefore the grave of Christ Jesus is in Baji, it is in Medina, it is where ever the flesh was laid to rest.

The flesh is dust, the Spirit is eternal.

Yes, the Spirit was with God from the instant of Creation, it was still there even though Jesus walked the earth and embodied the Spirit at the same time. It remains there alwys, even when it is embodied upon the earth.

Regards,
Scott
 
I thought I would post this as a point of information as Inhumility wrote above a comment directed at postmaster as follows:

Well sir
I would guide you to the grave of ChristJesus or YeshuaMessiahMoshiach or IssaMasih s/o MaryamMeriumMary.It is located in Mohallah Khanyar, Sirinagar, Kashmir, India. The local people remember by his name as Yuz Asaf, which seems a bit closer in sound to Yeshua than Jesus is from Yeshua. Please access: Al Islam - Jesus in India
Or Yuz Asaf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi - a faith in Islam
____________________

The Baha'i view is that Jesus was crucified.... that His body disappeared:

"For the body of Christ was crucified and vanished, but the Spirit of Christ is always pouring upon the contingent world, and is manifest before the insight of the people of assurance."

"Tablets of Abdul-Baha Abbas", Vol. 1 (Chicago: Bahá'í Publishing Society), p. 193-194

So it is mostly an Ahmadi belief that Jesus was buried in Kashmir and not a Baha'i belief.

- Art
 
Hi!

paul said:
Moses is perceived as a prohet isn't he?

but Moses is not considered completely perfect is he?
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The term we use for Moses, Jesus, Baha'u'llah, and other such individuals is Divine Messenger, or Manifestation of God (which is not to say They're God Himself).

And in the Bahai' view, ALL such Divine Messengers are perfect, Moses included!

This is distinct from prophets, who are ordinary humans like the rest of us....

Regards,

Bruce
 
Popeyesays said:
I don't know if Imran is still participating or not, so I'm not sure if I should address him or not. So I am going to address myself to the opriginal topic (How I know that the baha`i Faith is true) and to his questions which SEEm to attempt to undermine the authority of the Bab as The Returned Twelfth Imam.

First the Bab IS the returned 12th Imam just as John the Baptist was Elijah returned. John denied it, Jesus affirmed it. John made clear that John's authority ended at the feet of Jesus Christ. The Bab made sure to affirm over and over that He Whom God Shall Make Manifest had the authority to anull the Bab's Book with but a single word. Baha`i's believe that Baha`u'llah is clearly He WHom God Shall Make Manifest.

Once Baha`i's accept that the Bab was a Manifestation and that Baha`u'llah was the Manifestation of God with the power to anull the Bab's Revelation with but a single word, the original question of this topic is clearly answered.

The only "authoritative" interpretation of the Baha'i sacred texts (including the works of the Bab) is from the utterances and writings of Abdu'l Baha and Shoghi Effendi. Other than what those two empowered individuals say, their is no tafseer in the Baha`i Faith. It does no good at all to look for such tafseer where it does not exist.

The versions of the Bab's Writings which are NOT in the hands of the Baha`i Archives are suspect of forgery, distortion and outright falsification by those who hated the faith from its inception.

Therefore the documents represented in such websites as Imran's are not authentic at all, and have no authority whatsoever.

Does that sufficiently handle the issues?

Regards,
Scott
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Hi Scott:

We have no other reference from the Bab about "Whom Allah will Manifest" except that he said the words that "Whom Allah will Manifest" will well manifest himself. No other statement which is found in "official" Bahai versions of the Bab. If one reads the other books of the Bab, one may be inclined to think that the Bab was referring to some other person - maybe the 12th Imam whom he refers to by name and titles in tafseere' surah kausar.

Unfortunately, the Bahais have found a convenient way to bypass the issue. They simply say that all version of Bab's writings which are not in Bahai archives are false. So tell us which of bab's books are in the Bahai archives and we will be happy to read them and make our point.

The Faith is not more than 200 years old and you want to tell me that in an age when books were written and printed, ALL of the Bab's works were lost? ALL of them??!

If the books were forgeries, how did the Bahais accept only some quotations from them and put them in Selected Writings of the Bab? Why was the entire book not scrapped. Why do we have one quotation from Dalaelus Sabah which is accepted and the other rejected?

We have the Bab's acceptance of Mohammed Ibnil Hasan in at least 4 books in different words and titles. Is that why these books are rejected?

And once again, you have chosen to talk about my favourite topic - Bab as the 12th Imam. Which prophecies of the 12th Imam did the Bab fulfill? Read the article on my web site - The Bab v/s the Mahdi. Not one prophecy is fulfilled. Not one.

Regards
Imran
 
If the books were forgeries, how did the Bahais accept only some quotations from them and put them in Selected Writings of the Bab? Why was the entire book not scrapped. Why do we have one quotation from Dalaelus Sabah which is accepted and the other rejected?
....................................

Before scriptures are accepted by us they go through a process of review and translation... Our main emphasis has clearly been the Writings of Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha because we are in fact Baha'is and not Babis.. b ut as resources allow scholarship and review will in time produce more translations of the Babi texts.

The "Selections from the Writings of the Bab" published first time in 1976 is an excellent compendium of translations and just because some were not included doesn't mean they have been "rejected"...

It is very evident that some manuscripts were interpolated and scewed in favor of various points of view. As a persecuted sect these works had to be copied and some that were hidden were not so well preserved. So you might as well blame those who were trying to stamp out the Babis for this!

As to the site that Imran touts it is about as biased a site as you'll find and hardly impartial.

- Art
 
arthra said:
If the books were forgeries, how did the Bahais accept only some quotations from them and put them in Selected Writings of the Bab? Why was the entire book not scrapped. Why do we have one quotation from Dalaelus Sabah which is accepted and the other rejected?
....................................

Before scriptures are accepted by us they go through a process of review and translation... Our main emphasis has clearly been the Writings of Baha'u'llah and Abdul-Baha because we are in fact Baha'is and not Babis.. b ut as resources allow scholarship and review will in time produce more translations of the Babi texts.

The "Selections from the Writings of the Bab" published first time in 1976 is an excellent compendium of translations and just because some were not included doesn't mean they have been "rejected"...

It is very evident that some manuscripts were interpolated and scewed in favor of various points of view. As a persecuted sect these works had to be copied and some that were hidden were not so well preserved. So you might as well blame those who were trying to stamp out the Babis for this!

As to the site that Imran touts it is about as biased a site as you'll find and hardly impartial.

- Art
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C'mon Art, when you talk about a process of review, I can understand if it were a book running into thousands of pages. Dalaelus Sabah as I know it and the copy I have is extremely small. And it is a complete copy. Why would they not release the book or complete the translation? Could they not complete the translation of the books since 1976?!

In fact that is true of all the other books as well. So let the Bahai administration release the books or come out with a statement saying that. You are not a Bahai authority as far as I can see. The UHJ is. So let the UHJ say that we consider the following xyz book of the Bab as a forgery and we consider the following abc book of the Bab to be complete and available for any independent seeker of the truth.

Secondly, you want to tell me that all boooks were forged? It appears so because SWB contains references from almost every book of the Bab. But not a single book in its entirety is complete. And you know what, I have read each and every book. All the passages I quote on my web site appear in logical sequences of context of the manuscript. Read Sahifae Adaliyah and you will know what I mean. bab first speaks about the pillars of faith - Oneness of God, then Nabuwwat (prophethood) and then he says the fourth pillar is Imamat (leadership after prophethood) in which he mentions the name and the title of the 12th Imam. But obviously you have never read Sahifae Adaliyah and conveniently consider it to be "forged".

Why is it that the Bahai administration while compiling SWB selected ONLY those sentences which suit the Bahai faith and disregarded ALL the others?

As regards your point about being Bahais - sure but you must remember, the Bahais came out of Babis. Babism is the foundation of the Bahai Faith. The official Bahai web site says so. With less than 200 years having passed from the inception of the faith, it is important to read both Babi and Bahai documents to understand the faith completely. Or atleast the option should be made available to any independent investigator of the truth. Simply saying that we were persecuted and hence ALL our books are forged appears in my view "an ostrich in the sand" approach.

And apart from the Bahais themselves, are there or not other independent historians who went through the books, secured them, preserved them, digitised them. I was not present when the books were brought or printed. But obviously some person at that time preserved the books and handed them down and made it available to us. So do we disregard the work of all those historians as well?

Incidentally, all the books of the Bab are available on the web site of the Bayanis - those who were Babis but did not accept Bahaullah for their own reasons. None of these books contain anything to support their claims against the Bahais. I make this point so that one should not say that the Bayanis altered the books. They did not. And they do not consider the books to be altered. Then why are only the Bahais making such a fuss about these books?

I repeat, the Bahai administration, if it has the books should release "official" copies of the books. If not, then it should issue a statement naming the books that are widely considered forgeries so that the air can be cleared once and for all.

As regards my web site, you should treat it with more respect.

1. I seem to have read more Bahai books and more importantly in their original source languages than most Bahais.
2. All statements on my web site are backed by references in their original source languages.
3. Not a single judgement has been given till it is backed by a comment with reference in source language from either the Bab or Bahaullah or Abdul Baha.

yet, you call it prejudiced?

Warm regards, as always
Imran
 
Essentially this is a Baha'i Board and I am just an ordinary Baha'i but I do recognize your site as essentially antithetical to my Faith and it does contain prejudiced remarks and innuendo.

Your remarks about Baha'i administration are also out of place and off topic here in my view.

- Art
 
Imran wrote:

"Incidentally, all the books of the Bab are available on the web site of the Bayanis -"

My reply:

The Bayani site has an Azali version of the "books of the Bab" and is built around Subh-i-Azal and not the majority of Babis who later became Baha'is. Subh-i-Azal was opposed to the Proclamation of Baha'u'llah and attempted throughout the rest of his life to attack the Faith...so this site will give an Azali view.

To explain the complexities of the Babi records there's an essay by Juan Cole at

http://bahai-library.com/?file=cole_nuqtat_al-kaf_chronicle

which has a chart detailing how complex the subject is and probably one reason it takes a great deal of care to identify the various sources. But uppermost in the minds of people who study or consider this is the problem of the early attempts to eradicate the Babis and destroy them.

A close historical parallel I think would be the followers of John the Baptist becoming followers of Jesus later so most of the early Babis became Baha'is.

Imran's site is biased because of the long antipathy of the Shia eccleciastics to the Babis and later the Baha'is and there is use of innuendo as well as obvious slurs against the Baha'is.

- Art
 
BruceDLimber said:
Meaning no offense, we Baha'is are not. YOU are.

Peace,
Bruce
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Thank you. I recognise that. And rightfully so in my view. These books contain material which explicitly contradict the very foundation of the Babi and consequently, the Bahai Faith.

All I am asking is that one can easily dismiss the books as forgeries. That is fine. But given that the UHJ is in current times, the ultimate authority of the Bahai Faith, it must release a statement saying that the following books are forged. Or the following passages from these books are forged. This will put an end to the argument once and for all.

If the UHJ is the authority, then all Bahais must accept it. If the UHJ has not said anything about these books, then Bahais must accept that the books are fine. Just because they do not fit into their scheme of thought is not a good enough reason in my view to dismiss the books outright.

So between fussy and non fussy, I will choose to remain fussy about the status of the books of the Bab unless clarified by the UHJ.

And yes, no offence meant. No offense taken.

Regards
Imran
 
arthra said:
Imran wrote:

"Incidentally, all the books of the Bab are available on the web site of the Bayanis -"

My reply:

The Bayani site has an Azali version of the "books of the Bab" and is built around Subh-i-Azal and not the majority of Babis who later became Baha'is. Subh-i-Azal was opposed to the Proclamation of Baha'u'llah and attempted throughout the rest of his life to attack the Faith...so this site will give an Azali view.

To explain the complexities of the Babi records there's an essay by Juan Cole at

Nuqtat al-Kaf and the Babi Chronicle Traditions

which has a chart detailing how complex the subject is and probably one reason it takes a great deal of care to identify the various sources. But uppermost in the minds of people who study or consider this is the problem of the early attempts to eradicate the Babis and destroy them.

A close historical parallel I think would be the followers of John the Baptist becoming followers of Jesus later so most of the early Babis became Baha'is.

Imran's site is biased because of the long antipathy of the Shia eccleciastics to the Babis and later the Baha'is and there is use of innuendo as well as obvious slurs against the Baha'is.

- Art
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So if there is an Azali version, can we please have the Bahai version of the books?

Bahaism is important to Shiahs. The Shiahs believe in 12 Imams. By claiming without any proof that the Bab was the 12th Imam, Bahais have ruffled the very doctrine of the Shia Faith. So yes, Shiahs will require proof from the Bahais and till they do not get it, there will be antipathy.

I have a huge section of the Bab versus the Mahdi on my web site. Plus an entire section of the Bab. it is from a Shiite point of view. Read it and let me know, once again if the Bab fulfilled even a single prophecy about the Mahdi in Islam. Then we can listen to comments about bias and prejudice.

Regards
Imran Shaykh
 
arthra said:
Imran wrote:

"Incidentally, all the books of the Bab are available on the web site of the Bayanis -"

My reply:

The Bayani site has an Azali version of the "books of the Bab" and is built around Subh-i-Azal and not the majority of Babis who later became Baha'is. Subh-i-Azal was opposed to the Proclamation of Baha'u'llah and attempted throughout the rest of his life to attack the Faith...so this site will give an Azali view.

To explain the complexities of the Babi records there's an essay by Juan Cole at

Nuqtat al-Kaf and the Babi Chronicle Traditions

which has a chart detailing how complex the subject is and probably one reason it takes a great deal of care to identify the various sources. But uppermost in the minds of people who study or consider this is the problem of the early attempts to eradicate the Babis and destroy them.

- Art
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As regards Babi records, read E G Browne's comments. Unlike Juan Cole, he had the good fortune of being present while the movement actually took place. I will rate E G Browne higher than Juan Cole (much as I have respect for his views as well) simply because Browne was actually there - in the right place, at well, the right time.

10-14 years ago, the bahai web site was full of quotations from Browne. In fact not just the official bahai web site, but even general bahai web sites used to begin wth quotations from Browne. Then I guess they actually read his books and then removed his name from almost the entire web site except for one place. His books are now considered to be unreliable by the Bahais despite the fact that 10-14 years ago he was considered as a "very reliable and independent" historian by the Bahais!!

Regards
Imran
 
imranshaykh said:
[G]iven that the UHJ is in current times, the ultimate authority of the Bahai Faith, it must release a statement saying that the following books are forged. Or the following passages from these books are forged.
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IMHO you are in no position to dictate to the House what it "must" or "must not" do.

That said, to the extent that you honestly think this a legitimate concern, you of course have the option of writing them and asking them directly. I'm sure that if you do so, you'll get a reply.

Additonally, you appear to overlook the fact that Browne had his oen political agenda and wound up supporting the Azalis because he considered them more willing to adopt his views.

Nor do we rush to treat as valid documents that were in Azali hands given that some of those individuals had been demonstrated to have forged and/or misattributed works in the past, as recounted by various authors such as Taherdadeh.

Peace,

Bruce
 
Imran,

It's interesting you don't seem to like Dr. Cole's remarks in the paper I cited but seem to respect him... I don't really think this getting us anywhere. You are obviously antagonistic to Baha'i Faith... and your posts are way off topic...so again you seek to use this board to profer your wares. But no Baha'is are buying them....

- Art
 
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