Is Islam actually peaceful?

[Quahom1]

the athan is not a song! its a call to prayer...nota song...but leaving this matter, yes singing about other than religion, i regard and islam does as being haram!some people even say some religious songs are haram if they have a instrumental piece to them, as only simple simple drum beats can be allowed

Fine, to you it is not a song, it is a prayer and a calling. I'm not leaving a matter that you presented. To me it is song to both God and the faithful. It is a prayer and a beconning for the faithful to join in. It has melody, and rythmn, and it comes from the heart. It notifiies God that the faithful are coming to worship. It reminds the people to come and worship. It tells a story, and asks others to join in that story, or at least take note of that story...to me, it is a song.

You do not have to accept my take on this. This is simply how I perceive things. And your's is not the sole voice. So take it easy.

Unless, your intention is to keep people like me quiet...

v/r

Q

 

[InLove]

Hi, Peace to All Here--

With respect to all, I would like to submit that the first time (here in this existence) that I experienced a meeting with the entity many refer to as God or Allah or even the One whose name shall not be spoken was when the meeting was initiated through what I refer to as "music". It was most definitely a "call to worship".

I am tiptoeing quietly away now.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Quahom1]

madam, for certain...blessed are you.

 

[Zaakir]

the athan has in it the fundamental values of islam.it has a meaning, it doesnt have an exact was of being said, everybody says it differently. it is recited in a tone that makes it pleasing to be heard, because it has in it the fundamental beleifs of islam and its calling people to prayer, its a very important part of the prayer.it is not a song, it is very very different from actual islamic music, and i dont see personally how it can be a song, with arabic its easier, (for me anyway) to actually recite the call in this tone, and it make sme ponder and think about the respect islam has for the ONE true god, and i cannot compare the feeling it gives me with any music or song likewise. if you think it sounds like a song, ok...but im telling you from my islamic view its not...the way that i say you beleive in three gods...but you say its one...but in 3 forms or whatever...get me?

 

[InLove]

Hi, and Peace--

Thank you, Q. I am blessed by reading even a heated debate, sometimes, because I learn things I did not know.

And, you know, guys--sometimes the human language is insufficient. Even the term "semantics" falls somewhat short.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[Quahom1]

the athan has in it the fundamental values of islam.it has a meaning, it doesnt have an exact was of being said, everybody says it differently. it is recited in a tone that makes it pleasing to be heard, because it has in it the fundamental beleifs of islam and its calling people to prayer, its a very important part of the prayer.it is not a song, it is very very different from actual islamic music, and i dont see personally how it can be a song, with arabic its easier, (for me anyway) to actually recite the call in this tone, and it make sme ponder and think about the respect islam has for the ONE true god, and i cannot compare the feeling it gives me with any music or song likewise. if you think it sounds like a song, ok...but im telling you from my islamic view its not...the way that i say you beleive in three gods...but you say its one...but in 3 forms or whatever...get me?

Got you. it is a song. and music is haram, yet music is despite haram, and there are no three gods. and I sense the same calling. and this is an exercise in head butting. and Inlove is trying to stop our bickering...Got me?

v/r

Q

 

[flowperson]

Hi, Peace to All Here--

With respect to all, I would like to submit that the first time (here in this existence) that I experienced a meeting with the entity many refer to as God or Allah or even the One whose name shall not be spoken was when the meeting was initiated through what I refer to as "music". It was most definitely a "call to worship".

I am tiptoeing quietly away now.

InPeace,
InLove

InLove:

You should be dancing away in joy. In fact we all likely sometimes resonate in response to some sort of music.

Not many know it, but there is a growing opinion that musical patterning is the underlying lattice upon which DNA and RNA is constructed. Just thought I'd throw that into the mix.

flow....

 

[InLove]

Well, er, umm, I have been told that David danced...

 

[InLove]

Hi, Peace All-

Well, er, umm, I have been told that David danced...

I decided after I posted this that perhaps it wasn't the wisest or most appropriate thing to say here. I cannot get back to edit, and it has been posted for a good 10 minutes, so I figured I had better say something.

I apologize if I offended anyone by posting this here. It was certainly not my intention to do so. Mods? It wouldn't hurt my feelings if the post were removed, as long as it does not upset the logic of the conversation. Thanks.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[flowperson]

InLove:

Psalms means "songs" and David is purported to have written them using his harp (lyre). I wouldn't worry about offending. Chanting and singing with dance is probably the most ancient of spiritual worship forms. We didn't seem to get ourselves into trouble as societies until we tried attaching laws to all of that.

flow....

 

[InLove]

InLove:

Psalms means "songs" and David is purported to have written them using his harp (lyre). I wouldn't worry about offending. Chanting and singing with dance is probably the most ancient of spiritual worship forms. We didn't seem to get ourselves into trouble as societies until we tried attaching laws to all of that.

flow....

Thanks flow. It wasn't the reference to dancing I was worried about. It was the reference to David.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[The Lord]

There is one line in particular though, which still really troubles me. "...how many "average, common, everyday Muslims" cheered when the buildings burned in New York?" No doubt some did, along with a good number of non-muslims. How many though did not cheer? How many were appalled by what was going on? I really feel that questions like the juan asked put many innocent and peace-loving muslims in a position where they have to defend themselves against such accusations.

I agree with you. Such statements are bigoted in the least (is bigoted a better choice of words than racist?).

Now, to respond to the accusation itself, one can say with much more proof that Christians have cheered for the massacre of pagans and infidels since Roman times (they even cheered for the killing of fellow Christians because they would not accept the same creed); for the crusades; every time when the Jews were killed in the realms of Christendom; for the Inquisition; for the murder or forceful conversion of the native Americans, the black slaves, and many of the subject peoples; for the burning of witches, or hanging “colored” people from trees. They cheered for the fall of the Ottoman Caliphate. Christians cheered for the Holocaust, and again for the ruthless pogroms and dispossessions of the Palestinians to form the state of Israel so as to hasten the return of Christ (I see them dancing on TV every time Israel comes closer to the goal by killing a few Palestinians and demolishing a few buildings). Christians cheered when America toppled the government of Mosaddaq in Iran, bombed Nicaragua, and invaded Grenada. Christians celebrated when America bombed Lebanon, carpet bombed Afghanistan, and destroyed Iraq. Christians were very happy when over a million Iraqi children died from lack of food and medicine. Christians were exceedingly happy when Israel again destroyed Lebanon. They cannot help it. Christians, it seems, are required to hate everybody!

Lu:14:26: If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

I am tried of listing, but there are a great many things for which Christians should be ashamed of than Muslims. If you guys want to continue such a bigoted thread, then I recommend that we convert it to, or create a list of actual acts of violence. Let each of us make research and list a short entry for the incident, listing the date, the perpetrator, the perpetrator’s religious affiliation, and a short description. It would be nice if we could have it in a table, with one column for Christianity and one column for Islam, and then arrange them by date. But I do not know how to do that on this site, if at all possible.

 

[cyberpi]

I agree with you. Such statements are bigoted in the least (is bigoted a better choice of words than racist?).

Perhaps: Stereotype?

While the use varies today, I think bigot used to refer to the person who gets into an angry fit when someone points out a sterotype, racism, sexism, censorship, or any other host of beliefs. Not to defend a belief here either way, but some people prefer to see themselves free of stereotypes while others prefer to drive with a stereotype and test the wisdom of their generalization. The mind learns by generalizing, interpolation and extrapolation... but protracting one onto an otherwise perfect stranger is sort of like claiming 'guilty until proven innocent'... or, 'biased until proven a free will'. Protracting a stereotype onto someone can also be like making fun of attributes that a person did not choose... a deaf person probably did not choose to have no hearing, and a person born into a country with anything dominate probably did not get to make some choices in how they were raised in the first place. My 2 cents on that subject.

The_Lord... is that not a presumptuous and loaded name? I'd like to hear more about your experience that involved music.

 

[The Lord]

I agree the title is probably not the best...

Really, you think? How about another thread titled "Did Jews stop drinking the blood of Christian boys?" Or, "Is Christianity actually a religion of Love?" I know many people who would like to take you on if you use such a title.

An issue I'd like to see addressed, though, is that I have a lot of difficulty seeing Muslims on CR comment or even criticse any aspect of the modern Muslim world.

I don't believe any Muslim on CR has ever started a thread lamenting the atrocities in Iraq between Sunni and Shi'a; the fighting between Fatah and Hamas; the state of some Muslim countries as little more than playgrounds for corrupt dictators; and similar.

Perhaps we simply don't have a large enough Muslim membership to facilitate such discussions, but the impression given is that there's a general feeling of trying to avoid any critical comments on any aspect of the modern Islamic word, in case it's seen as "unMuslim".

This is certainly in contrast to the Christianity board, where Christians have no problems criticising aspects of the modern Christian world where they are seen to be against the spirit and/or letter of Christian faith.

That's why I thought juantoo3's post was worth starting as a new thread - to invite a more open discussion about problems within Islam by Muslims, away from more general eulogising of its benefits.

2c.

You do understand that the percentage of Muslims who reside in the west, and then even those who would be fluent enough in English to discuss matters here, is very minimal, and that is assuming they really know or care about this site. The fact that you do not know of their debates in other media or forums, and in other languages is your shortcoming and loss, and not theirs. They are under no obligation to explain or apologize to you. If they do, then we thank them for it and try to understand them. Judging from what I have seen do far, if a Muslim even attempts to post a positive point on Islam he is automatically ganged against and cut down to size. The sheer numbers of Christians and Jews on this board makes it virtually impossible for him/her to be able to counter the attacks. Besides, why would a Muslim start such a thread which he/she knows that most of you would seize the opportunity to attach bigoted propaganda to their discussions about their faith? After all there are plenty of anti-Islamic and derogatory hate posts on this site. No need to add some more. And yes, this thread, and your “general feeling” about the topic fall well within the sentiment of this thread: they are bigoted.

 

[The Lord]

... I'd like to hear more about your experience that involved music.

I do not play keyboards, if that is what you are asking about . However, I play the drums (not in a band now) and I like classic rock and heavy metal. However, I prefer the older bands to the newer ones.

 

[The Lord]

Perhaps: Stereotype?

A stereotype can be simply used based on ignorance, but bigotry implies hate, intent and malice.

 

[The Lord]

Re: rules

I cannot, and *do not*, paint all Muslims with one brush. I hold each to their own actions, just as I do anybody else. When the dominant attitude among a given people is hatred towards any not like them, persecuting for following the same G-d by a different path, culturally discriminating and acting prejudicially complete with lynching, something is not right. Are we in the west to believe that whole Sharia nations are misinterpreting Islam? What if Islam became the dominant faith in America, and Sharia became the law of the land (as I am sure the hope of many Muslims is a world of Sharia)? Would Christians and Jews, and Buddhists and Hindis, and Native Americans, and any others, become subject to death for their beliefs?

Or, are we in the west to just lay idly by and believe everything we are told because someone, however well intended, tells us something that contradicts what we see?

Shifting the subject onto Christianity is to avoid the subject at hand in this thread. There are plenty of threads dealing with the conflicts in Christianity. Why is it so difficult to discuss with Muslims the conflicts in Islam?

I do apologize, if somehow my comments are taken as prejudicial towards the whole of Islam. I do not apologize for speaking truth. G-d demands it of me, as G-d does of others as well. Including Muslims.

Are you kidding us or yourself? Where do you get your information from? Tell us, where do you find in Islam that Muslims should kill people of the book for just being people of the book? If your claim is true, then how do you explain that after 1500 years of Muslim dominance and rule over vast areas of the world there are still sizable communities of Christians and Jews in the MENA counties and Europe, Hindus in India, Buddhists in Central Asia, and others of many faiths in Africa and Asia? How do you explain that when Muslims were ruling Spain, Sicily, Malta, southern Italy, and Eastern Europe the populations of these areas remained largely on their Christian faith. They were not killed for being Christians. Even people who were not traditionally considered people of the book, in India for instance, were not killed for not being Muslim. If Muslims wanted to they could have done it because they had absolute military power at the time. But they did not. I can take you to Spain, Sicily, and Malta right now and you will see them there, enjoying the fruits of culture that the Muslims brought them when they were still living in caves. I can take you to any country in the Middle East and you will see Christians walking around with crosses on their necks, churches everywhere, and even hear the bells ring on Sundays (Tell me which "democratic" Christian country allows Muslims to sound the call to payer?). There is nothing in the history of Islam similar to the Inquisition or the Holocaust. Sure, there were some times of civil strife, but they were localized and all communities in such places and at such times were hurt.

You do not want Muslims to respond by attacking Christianity and Judaism, but you yourself use a contrasting language. What are you claiming to criticize Islam about if not in contrast to Christians and Jews who do not do the same things? And please explain to us why Muslims are guests in Western countries? I thought Western countries were liberal democracies of their citizens, are they not? So who in hell decided that they are not the countries of their Muslim citizens?

Listen, it is easy to formulate arguments to put others on the defensive, and which they cannot win. I can ask you to prove to me that you are not a child molester, and there would be no way on hell you can get me evidence to prove that you are NOT a child molester. This is why the law, when it is just, requires the accuser to provide positive evidence for his/her allegations. Arabs and Muslims have been falling for this Western colonial trap for about a century now and they have always been trying to defend themselves against the western onslaught against their countries, themselves, and their culture. They are stupid to even think that that would make a difference if they respond. Instead, they should analyze the West and Christianity by the same prejudiced lens that the West uses, and then we shall see how the West and Christianity come out. One handicap Muslims have in this is that they always say that they cannot attack Christianity and Judaism as religions, or their prophets, because Islam requires them to believe in and respect these religions. I say, and I am an outsider to all, garbage. Do what you have to do.

As for your examples of the Cartoons about Muhammad and the Satanic Verses, I hope that someone who can write eloquently as you do can tell the difference between criticism and baseless attack. If you are talking about artistic license, then I have a couple of cartoons about Jesus I would like to publish on this site. They involve his mother and father, which is a valid criticism because it is a central topic in Christian arguments about true belief (are you getting the picture since I do not want to be explicit in order not to offend anyone). I am sure this site, hosted in the Great Empire of Great Britain, supports freedom of expression, right? And while we are at it, I like to write an article about how the Holocaust did not exist. What is that? I cannot! Horror of horrors: what happened to my freedom of expression and artistic license?

As for your claim that Muslims avoid discussing the inner conflicts of Islam and shift the subject onto Christianity, and I am adding Judaism, maybe because they are intertwined. These religions share development and history together, and Christianity and Islam are the only two comparable world systems. One cannot compare Islam with Shamanism because they have nothing in common (even though I see some similarities with Christianity). My point is, like you always drag Islam into your discussions, Muslims always drag Christianity into their discussions, especially so since the aliments of Muslim societies can along the wave of Christian colonialism. As for Jews, how can a Muslim talk about current events and issues without dragging in the central issue of Palestine in shaping the modern Muslim world?

I am tired now. Bye.

 

[aburaees]

I don't know why Islam is being marketed as the "religion of peace", when first and foremost Islam is the religion of submission, submission to God - peace is what the individual gains from submitting to God, and not necessarily the right of every individual on the planet.
If a person genuinely wants to know to what extent unpeaceful measures can be implemented within the paradigm of Islam and in what context, you need only read the Sirah (biographies) of the Prophet Muhammad and the Hadith collections in conjunction with the Qur'an.
Of course when answering the question that the title of this thread asks, it is helpful to know what is meant by "Islam"... are we talking Qur'an only, or Qur'an and Hadiths, or Qur'an and anything else?

 

[YO-ELEVEN-11]

Personally, I think most songs of old were more like "rap" than anything else.

I have a lot of friends of different religious backgrounds from Muslims to SiKhs, to Christian to buddhists and we all seem to really like Tu-Pac for some reason.

Mattter fact, (funny story) when I worked in a casino, I saw some people who had to be in thier 60's pull up in their car listening to Tu-Pac. That was hilarious to me and my buddies.

Long point short, music is universal, and so are "Humans"

 

[cyberpi]

I do not play keyboards, if that is what you are asking about . However, I play the drums (not in a band now) and I like classic rock and heavy metal. However, I prefer the older bands to the newer ones.

Oops, sorry... it was InLove that described a meeting with God (swt).