Can a Christian kill?

[mee]

can a christian kill? not if he is following Jesus christ . history is stained with the blood of religiously backed strife. Just in our century, during the two world wars and after, we have witnessed the shameful practice of fellow religionists slaughtering each other—Catholic killing Catholic, Protestant killing Protestant, Muslim killing Muslim, and others. And the clergy on opposing sides, though of the same religion, blessed the troops that would soon be killing their religious brothers.
On this matter, the Bible is clear: Those who truly serve God are told to "seek peace and pursue it," to "beat their swords into plowshares," and not to "learn war anymore." (1 Peter 3:11; Isaiah 2:2-4)
if you belong to a religion, ask yourself: ‘If everybody on earth belonged to my religion, would wars have stopped and would this earth now be a place of genuine peace?’

 

[wil]

...But in the other extreme, no, a Christian can't commit pre-meditated murder,...

Now here is where the wicket gets sticky...it seems in general Christians feel that training someone to kill for weeks/months/years...and then sending him off on to a foriegn country (say pre-emptive defense) to do what he has been trained to do (kill) is somehow acceptable...

the problem is the exact same justification that is used by the Christian in one land is the one that is used in another land to strap a bomb on a back and go...

and then of course someone screams no, they are killing innocent civilians, whereby when our tallies are added up and the innocent civilian debate comes up...there are no innocent civilians, they just weren't wearing uniforms or they were harboring (mothers) or they would be soldiers soon (kids)...

Once you start the dance....

 

[Quahom1]

Now here is where the wicket gets sticky...it seems in general Christians feel that training someone to kill for weeks/months/years...and then sending him off on to a foriegn country (say pre-emptive defense) to do what he has been trained to do (kill) is somehow acceptable...

the problem is the exact same justification that is used by the Christian in one land is the one that is used in another land to strap a bomb on a back and go...

and then of course someone screams no, they are killing innocent civilians, whereby when our tallies are added up and the innocent civilian debate comes up...there are no innocent civilians, they just weren't wearing uniforms or they were harboring (mothers) or they would be soldiers soon (kids)...

Once you start the dance....

I suppose the British should have given in to the will of the Germans, 60-100 years ago, then there would have been little to no life lost...
Of course Europe would be speaking German as the National language, as would Canada. Mexico would be speaking Japanese, and The United States? Well there wouldn't be much of one, if it still existed.

I'll tell you what. You continue to criticize Christians who pick up a gun and do what they think is best for them and theirs (which in this case includes you and yours), and let the Christians who do the killing worry about what God will think of them.

The alternative is unacceptable...

v/r

Q

 

[mee]

did not Jesus say to his disiples ......... you are no part of the world , the same way that he was no part of the world.All who are on the Lord’s side will be neutral as to warring nations.
Jesus said: "Because you are no part of the world, . . . the world hates you." (John 15:19)

 

[kenod]

Not all wars are justifed, and not all killing is justifed ... the most important factor is motive. To attack to conquer, is not the same as to attack to defend. If it is right to physically defend my family, then it is right to physically defend my fellow countrymen.

 

[mee]

Not all wars are justifed, and not all killing is justifed ... the most important factor is motive. To attack to conquer, is not the same as to attack to defend. If it is right to physically defend my family, then it is right to physically defend my fellow countrymen.

but would it be right to learn war ?

 

[wil]

I'll tell you what. You continue to criticize Christians who pick up a gun and do what they think is best for them and theirs (which in this case includes you and yours), and let the Christians who do the killing worry about what God will think of them.

The alternative is unacceptable...

Namaste Q,

I am not criticizing Christians for killing, I am discussing the topic as it presented. You stated premeditated murder is unacceptable for a Christian, I simply pointed out that it is common for one who states to be a Christian.

I am not placing blame, calling one right or wrong, just reading and commenting. I think the powers that be in the US shouldn't have supported Hitler to begin with....(powers that be being the elite and big business that drool over any money making opportunity).

I admire your thinking and contemplations, and rather than taking personal pot shots at me, lets discuss the topic and the justifications.

The answer is, yes a Christian can Kill...they do it all the time...does it still allow them to be a Christian?? I say yes, is it Christian to kill? I say no, but in certain circumstances we are presented with choices which set some of our values aside...and we make justifications to do so.

Is honestly to ourselves really that hard? Or is just pouncing so much easier?

 

[kenod]

but would it be right to learn war ?

If my son has to go into battle to defend my family and my country from an attack, then, yes, I want him to be well trained and well equipped ... the same as I want our police force to be well trained.

I would also want him to be taught that indiscriminate killing, just because he wears a uniform, is not acceptable.

.

 

[kenod]

the problem is the exact same justification that is used by the Christian in one land is the one that is used in another land to strap a bomb on a back and go

I don’t think the justification is the same. There is a difference between indiscriminately killing civilians, and trying to avoid killing civilians.

Every summer our kitchen is invaded with ants. I do not spay the ants in my neighbour’s yard to teach the ants in my yard a lesson. I only spray around my kitchen. In both cases, ants are killed, but there is a different motive.

OK, humans are not ants … I know. With humans we should try talking, and keep on talking. But if there comes a time when we believe people are being destroyed (whether it is Hitler, Hirohito or Hussein) our Christian responsibility is to step in and help protect others, even though the cost is very great - the lives of our own precious children, and the lives of “the enemy”.

.

 

[Quahom1]

If my son has to go into battle to defend my family and my country from an attack, then, yes, I want him to be well trained and well equipped ... the same as I want our police force to be well trained.

I would also want him to be taught that indiscriminate killing, just because he wears a uniform, is not acceptable.

.

Precisely.

 

[wil]

Quote:
Originally Posted by wil
the problem is the exact same justification that is used by the Christian in one land is the one that is used in another land to strap a bomb on a back and go

I don’t think the justification is the same. There is a difference between indiscriminately killing civilians, and trying to avoid killing civilians.

The issue to me is a terrorist is defined by which side you are on.

I am completely not supporting either side. And justifications are justifications no matter which side they are on. We don't try to avoid killing civilians, we try to minimize collatoral damage...I think there is a difference. And those that strap bombs to themselves claim to be discriminately killing civlians, to make a statement, as their civilians are regularly killed....discriminately.

Somewhere along the line we need to realize, killing does not stop killing. Our death penalty laws have not reduced crime, they just state sanction murder. Our wars to end all wars have not ended anythng.

 

[Dor]

The issue to me is a terrorist is defined by which side you are on.

I am completely not supporting either side. And justifications are justifications no matter which side they are on. We don't try to avoid killing civilians, we try to minimize collatoral damage...I think there is a difference. And those that strap bombs to themselves claim to be discriminately killing civlians, to make a statement, as their civilians are regularly killed....discriminately.

Somewhere along the line we need to realize, killing does not stop killing. Our death penalty laws have not reduced crime, they just state sanction murder. Our wars to end all wars have not ended anythng.

Please tell me you do not think the soldiers fighting a war are the same as the idiot that carries a bomb on a bus and blows it up.

 

[kenod]

We don't try to avoid killing civilians, we try to minimize collatoral damage...I think there is a difference.

I'd like to hear your explanation of the difference.

And those that strap bombs to themselves claim to be discriminately killing civlians, to make a statement, as their civilians are regularly killed....discriminately.

It is difficult to argue generalities, as each situation is different. The terrorist bombing that most affected my country was in Bali, Oct 2002. The motive was to overthrow the government and set up an Islamic state. Most of those killed were Australian, with nearly a quarter Indonesian nationals, but that region is mainly Hindu.

What do you believe were the explicit motives for 911?

Our wars to end all wars have not ended anythng.

Well they put an end to Hitler and Hirohito

 

[wil]

Namaste Dor,

Seek first to understand then to be understood.

We can glorify the soldier all we want. They are on both sides of every war, fighting for what they think is right, both sides praying to the same G-d to slauughter the enemy or make the enemy realize the error in their ways.

I have zero first hand knowledge of the life of the "idiot that carries a bomb on a bus" but I can imagine that it is far from the comfort of my home and family that would make a mother send her son off to perform this act. This is an act so final, so violent, so personal that one should realize this is no walk in the park, it is an act of desperation. The question isn't who this "idiot that carries a bomb on a bus" is, but what is leading him to feel this is an appropriate response. This is an act that screams of people that need love, support and understanding. All the actions that have been undertaken in the past 60 years...shooting, jailing, bulldozing entire developments, bombing the families, increased patrols, increased security, more fences, more checkpoints, war, epithats....none of these have worked.....the first sign of insanity is doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results.

The question is, when will we try a peaceful method as long and as determined as we have tried war?

 

[kenod]

The question isn't who this "idiot that carries a bomb on a bus" is, but what is leading him to feel this is an appropriate response. This is an act that screams of people that need love, support and understanding.

Consider the question: why are there no old suicide bombers.


.

 

[Quahom1]

The question is, when will we try a peaceful method as long and as determined as we have tried war?

We've been there, done that, it didn't work. Even Rome at the end of its days tried to appease the Visigoths (germanic warriors), with peace overtures, and gold, and wealth...the germanic soldiers sacked the place anyway, over and over again.

The US went isolationist and still got dragged into the wars.

Finally, we got attacked 10 times in 20 years (overtly), the last attack being the last straw. We didn't start the fight, but now that we are in it, we are going to finish it. Are we a Christian dominated nation? Yes. Are we going to kill? Yes. For how long? Until the enemy gives up, sues for peace or is dead.

my thoughts

v/r

Q

 

[Dor]

The question is, when will we try a peaceful method as long and as determined as we have tried war?

Everyone tried that with some guy named Hitler....peace at all cost . Give him what he wants, let him take what he wants. That got us alot.

 

[Quahom1]

Everyone tried that with some guy named Hitler....peace at all cost . Give him what he wants, let him take what he wants. That got us alot.

Yeah, about 100 million dead within 10 years...

 

[mee]

If my son has to go into battle to defend my family and my country from an attack, then, yes, I want him to be well trained and well equipped ... the same as I want our police force to be well trained.

I would also want him to be taught that indiscriminate killing, just because he wears a uniform, is not acceptable.

.[/quote
And all your sons will be persons taught by Jehovah, and the peace of your sons will be abundant Isaiah 54;13

 

[Quahom1]

If my son has to go into battle to defend my family and my country from an attack, then, yes, I want him to be well trained and well equipped ... the same as I want our police force to be well trained.

I would also want him to be taught that indiscriminate killing, just because he wears a uniform, is not acceptable.

.[/quote
And all your sons will be persons taught by Jehovah, and the peace of your sons will be abundant Isaiah 54;13

My sons were taught by me. I look to Jesus for guidance in that. I also talk with The Father because He understands sacrifice...

So, perhaps "Jehovah" (The Father), through Jesus, has helped me teach my sons how to live, and hopefully, let live.

v/r

Q