Can a Christian kill?

[mee]

I wouldn't work on a cigarette counter either. And I don't think I would like being a policeman. But police have been very helpful to my family ... my daughter was threatened by some thugs on her way home from work one evening recently ... I am glad that there are men out there who are trained to use force if necessary to protect our families, aren't you?

Do you believe Jehovah disapproves of the police and the national guard who enforce law and order in our society?

i think that Jehovah hates those who are lovers of violence, and this world is full of violence and curuption, that is why he is going to step into the affairs of man and then we wont even need to enlist any one to be a policeman because they will not be needed anymore, because everyone will be taught by Jehovah , but at the momment Jehovah is allowing humans to rule and because the world is in the power of the wicked one 1 john 5;19 (the wicked one being satan the devil) things are in opposition to Jehovahs way of doing things. humans try our best to keep the peace , such as policemen , but it will be even better when policemen will not even be needed . better times are ahead when Gods heavenly kingdom goverment takes over .
"And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite Daniel 2;44 yes the kingdom has been set up in the heavens in 1914 while humans are still ruling, but it has yet to put an end to mans way of ruling. yes better times ahead for those who want it.

 

[kenod]

humans try our best to keep the peace , such as policemen , but it will be even better when policemen will not even be needed .

Yes, we humans try our best to keep the peace, but in so doing someone has to be the enforcer of peace, to provide protection for others - that's why we need policemen and soldiers - and we need them to be well trained, and we need them to be prepared to do whatever it takes to enforce the peace to protect us - this means they may have to lay down their own lives; it means they may have to use force; it even means they may have to be prepared to kill in order to protect us.

 

[mee]

Yes, we humans try our best to keep the peace, but in so doing someone has to be the enforcer of peace, to provide protection for others - that's why we need policemen and soldiers - and we need them to be well trained, and we need them to be prepared to do whatever it takes to enforce the peace to protect us - this means they may have to lay down their own lives; it means they may have to use force; it even means they may have to be prepared to kill in order to protect us.

its interesting that the early christians , because of listening to Jesus , did not enrol in the forces after becoming a christian , Jesus teachings really did have an effect on those followers of christ ,
It is a fact of ancient and modern-day history that in every nation and under all circumstances true Christians have endeavored to maintain complete neutrality as to conflicts between factions of the world. They do not interfere with what others do about sharing in patriotic ceremonies, serving in the armed forces, joining a political party, running for a political office, or voting. But they themselves worship only Jehovah, the God of the Bible; they have dedicated their lives unreservedly to him and give their full support to his Kingdom. yes i think that Jesus followers would be no part of the world , as Jesus himself said that they would not be a part of the world ,but they would also be hated for that .

 

[kenod]

It is a fact of ancient and modern-day history that in every nation and under all circumstances true Christians have endeavored to maintain complete neutrality as to conflicts between factions of the world.

Are you telling me that no "true Christians" fought against Hitler in the last world war?

Do all JWs believe it is wrong to be either a policeman or a soldier?

 

[wil]

Eternal Father, Lord of hosts,
Watch o'er the men who guard our coasts.
Protect them from the raging seas
And give them light and life and peace.
Grant them from thy great throne above
The shield and shelter of thy love.

We do realize both sides have their prayers...in every war. Do we think it is G-d's favorites that win? Guess those indegenous peoples around the world got what they deserved (and I'm not talking about casinos)

I realize there is a place for the soldier...as well as the pacifist...and those that hold the space of peace...I can't imagine what the world would be like with out the last two....but I dream for the world without the first one.

If the same billions were given to the wall street and fifth avenue marketing boys...they could make peace, cooperation, tolerance, and helping others the norm...the same way they sell coke, ritalin, and cars...

 

[Quahom1]

We do realize both sides have their prayers...in every war. Do we think it is G-d's favorites that win? Guess those indegenous peoples around the world got what they deserved (and I'm not talking about casinos)

I realize there is a place for the soldier...as well as the pacifist...and those that hold the space of peace...I can't imagine what the world would be like with out the last two....but I dream for the world without the first one.

If the same billions were given to the wall street and fifth avenue marketing boys...they could make peace, cooperation, tolerance, and helping others the norm...the same way they sell coke, ritalin, and cars...

If you notice, the prayer does not say "hooray for our side", nor does it identify a nation. It is a prayer for those who guard one's coasts...(you're reading too much into things).

edit: by the way, the hymn is an old "English" hymn...not American.

 

[mee]

Are you telling me that no "true Christians" fought against Hitler in the last world war?

Do all JWs believe it is wrong to be either a policeman or a soldier?

the light gets brighter and clearer in this time of the end , for example ,at one time JW used to smoke cigarettes (well some did anyway) because the light had not been shone to enlighten them regarding smoking , but in 1975 the understanding became clearer inline with Gods word the bible , and at that time Those who wanted to be enlightened no longer smoked , now we can see the wisdom in Jehovahs way of doing things , because it is well known now how smoking is a defilement of the flesh ,
Therefore, since we have these promises, beloved ones, let us cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God’s fear.
(2 Corinthians 7:1)

The Bible says: "You must love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:39) Love for your neighbors—and your family members are your closest neighbors—is a powerful reason to quit.​

Smoking hurts others. passive smoking is not good .
Pregnant women who smoke endanger their unborn babies. many things Jehovah enlightens his people with are only for our benefit ,even if at the time we dont even realize it . i love the way that JW organization is a progressive organization in line with the bible , and Jehovah is always refining his people , we never stay in darkness but the light gets brigher and brighter.

 

[Quahom1]

the light gets brighter and clearer in this time of the end , for example ,at one time JW used to smoke cigarettes (well some did anyway) because the light had not been shone to enlighten them regarding smoking , but in 1975 the understanding became clearer inline with Gods word the bible , and at that time Those who wanted to be enlightened no longer smoked , now we can see the wisdom in Jehovahs way of doing things , because it is well known now how smoking is a defilement of the flesh ,
Therefore, since we have these promises, beloved ones, let us cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God’s fear.
(2 Corinthians 7:1)

The Bible says: "You must love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:39) Love for your neighbors—and your family members are your closest neighbors—is a powerful reason to quit.​

Smoking hurts others. passive smoking is not good .
Pregnant women who smoke endanger their unborn babies. many things Jehovah enlightens his people with are only for our benefit ,even if at the time we dont even realize it . i love the way that JW organization is a progressive organization in line with the bible , and Jehovah is always refining his people , we never stay in darkness but the light gets brigher and brighter.

Got news for you. I know of several JWs and Mormons who are military personnel (on active duty). They happen to be some of the best damn medics and Hospital Corpsman I've ever had the pleasure (and relief) of knowing...and they know how to shoot...

v/r

Q

 

[mee]

Are you telling me that no "true Christians" fought against Hitler in the last world war?

Do all JWs believe it is wrong to be either a policeman or a soldier?

we are all taught by Jehovah ,and JW do not kill anyone.
Jehovah’s Witnesses have been strictly neutral in all conflicts. The Watchtower of November 1, 1939, stated: "All who are on the Lord’s side will be neutral as to warring nations." Jehovah’s Witnesses in all nations and under all circumstances continue to hold to this position. They do not allow the world’s divisive politics and wars to break up their international brotherhood. They "beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears." Being neutral, they do not learn war anymore.—Isaiah 2:3, 4; 2 Corinthians 10:3, 4............. would you not agree that is good? just think if everyone was taught by Jehovah there would not be any wars .

 

[mee]

Got news for you. I know of several JWs and Mormons who are military personnel (on active duty). They happen to be some of the best damn medics and Hospital Corpsman I've ever had the pleasure (and relief) of knowing...and they know how to shoot...

v/r

Q

A true christian does not learn war , and Jehovah knows his sheep . some come to learn Jehovahs ways , while already signed up , progression works wonders, yes many JW at one time may have been doing things that were out of harmony with Gods way of doing things , but the word of God is alive and many who at one time did learn war have put themselves inline with Jehovah and his teaching . some people are in difficult curcumstances ,

 

[Quahom1]

A true christian does not learn war , and Jehovah knows his sheep . some come to learn Jehovahs ways , while already signed up , progression works wonders, yes many JW at one time may have been doing things that were out of harmony with Gods way of doing things , but the word of God is alive and many who at one time did learn war have put themselves inline with Jehovah and his teaching . some people are in difficult curcumstances ,

Joshua was a man of Jehovah, if ever there was one. He did exactly what Jehovah told him to do, even when it came to striking dead those who violated the laws of Jehovah. He never questioned Jehovah, but carried out His orders to the letter, resulting in the fall of Jericho and the annhiliation of every man, woman and child within that city, and no stone left on top of another. He even executed the families of those who stole gold and hid it (even though he forgave them).

Joshua, a man of Jehovah, was one of the greatest military generals this world has ever seen. And Jehovah blessed Joshua over and over again, for everything he did was right and pleasing in Jehovah's eyes.

 

[mee]

Joshua was a man of Jehovah, if ever there was one. He did exactly what Jehovah told him to do, even when it came to striking dead those who violated the laws of Jehovah. He never questioned Jehovah, but carried out His orders to the letter, resulting in the fall of Jericho and the annhiliation of every man, woman and child within that city, and no stone left on top of another. He even executed the families of those who stole gold and hid it (even though he forgave them).

Joshua, a man of Jehovah, was one of the greatest military generals this world has ever seen. And Jehovah blessed Joshua over and over again, for everything he did was right and pleasing in Jehovah's eyes.

but soon, Jehovah will read peoples hearts , and it will be up to Jehovah who he cuts -off from everlasting life, i am glad about that , because all we as christians will have to do is stand still and see the salvation of Jehovah. our war-fare is a spiritual war-fare not a litral war-fare.
Joshua’s success depended on his strong faith. and so it is with christians.

 

[Quahom1]

but soon, Jehovah will read peoples hearts , and it will be up to Jehovah who he cuts -off from everlasting life, i am glad about that , because all we as christians will have to do is stand still and see the salvation of Jehovah. our war-fare is a spiritual war-fare not a litral war-fare.
Joshua’s success depended on his strong faith. and so it is with christians.

That wasn't the issue. And that was a "skirt job" if I've ever seen one (lol). The fact that Joshua was a man of Jehovah, and being faithful and loyal to Jehovah, carried out his orders as commanded by Jehovah. And Jehovah ordered Joshua to kill. Not only to kill, but to decimate his enemies. And Jehovah ordered Joshua to kill those who dis-obeyed Jehovah, within Joshua's one people.

There was another time, where a man, outnumbered, with an inferior army had a dream/vision, and was told in that dream/vision "by this symbol, go and conquer". In 312 ACE (AD), a pagan general named Constantine, wiped out in a day, a far superior army, and became Ceasar. His life and the life of his charges changed on that day. The symbol he saw was the cross, and be became a Christian. He put an immediate end to the persecution of Christians, raised his children as Christians, encouraged his wife to be a devout Christian, tore down pagan temples and replaced them with Churches for Christ, and even was baptised before his death. Incidentally, he never wore Royal purple again, after his baptism, because there was only "one God", who deserved that color. He was buried in his baptismal gown (at his request).

My point is Mee, that Jehovah can use any and all means to ensure His will is done (be it through faithful men, or direct intervention by Jehovah Himself). Even war. And history shows that when Jehovah gets into war, those opposing Him do not have a snowball's chance in hell.

However, we never really see the hand of Jehovah clearly during the actual moment. It isn't until years later and the historical reflection on all that resulted because of certain actions that we see the hand of Jehovah.

You know, you bring up 1914 alot, and I've been thinking about it. It is a significant date, but not for the same reasons you present. 1914 is when man lost his innocence, and chess like play at war. No more tin soldiers lined up in rows facing eachother. No more chivalry and romanticising of war. 1914 is when war became ugly, and brutal...literally hell on earth. Or maybe it is just when war came to one's front door step on a daily basis, because of the new media called tabloid news, and reality hit home.

Anyway, it is obvious that Christians can, and sometimes must kill, just to survive and protect what Jehovah has given him. The funny thing is that there are those who will take on that dirty job, just to make sure you can believe as you see fit.

And who's to say, that isn't the plan of Jehovah to begin with?

v/r

Q

edit: What do you mean "soon Jehovah will read peoples' hearts"? He's been doing that since day one.

 

[mee]

o
My point is Mee, that Jehovah can use any and all means to ensure His will is done (be it through faithful men, or direct intervention by Jehovah Himself). Even war. And history shows that when Jehovah gets into war, those opposing Him do not have a snowball's chance in hell.



You know, you bring up 1914 alot, and I've been thinking about it. It is a significant date, but not for the same reasons you present. 1914 is when man lost his innocence, and chess like play at war. No more tin soldiers lined up in rows facing eachother. No more chivalry and romanticising of war. 1914 is when war became ugly,



A

v/r

Q

edit: What do you mean "soon Jehovah will read peoples' hearts"? He's been doing that since day one.

yes, you are quite right to say that Jehovah can use whomever he chooses to accomplish his will. and he does, and he will , one of the things that is Jehovahs purpose is to destroy Babylon the great, that is why he tells his people to get out of her,revelation 18;4 he can even use ones when they themselves are not even aware of it , he can even manouver great nations against his own people , he leads them on , but in the end they will come all the way to their end. yes 1914 really is a significant date , and as you mentioned 1914 is when war turned ugly, this is to be expected the bible foretold that it would matthew24;7-8
For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress................ yes this was the start of the last days, Satan was thrown down to the earth and he is very angry because he knows that he only has a short period of time left before he is put out of the way for a thousand years . revelation 12;9 yes , 1914 is a very significant date indeed. many things are happening since Jesus was made king of Gods heavenly kingdom goverment Daniel 7;13-14 Daniel 2;44
Every passing day draws us closer to the great day when Jehovah will direct His Son to make his presence manifest to the whole world.
Jehovah will put an end to wickedness in our day.

"The great day of Jehovah is near. It is near, and there is a hurrying of it very much."—ZEPHANIAH 1:14.​

JEHOVAH GOD is about to swing into action against the wicked. christians never ever kill , we are peaceful . stand back and see the salvation of Jehovah. putting ourselves on the side of Jehovah and his king Jesus christ is the thing to do

 

[mee]

yes he did just that , so what is the command for christians from Jesus ? the last thing that Jesus said to his followers was this in matthew 28;19-20
Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things." yes he told them to teach others what he himself had taught them , and to make disciples of all the nations. that is what a christian was commanded to do . we can certainly learn from the ones such as Joshua, how he had great faith in Jehovah , but our command is based on Jesus teachings and commands. and Jesus teachings came from Jehovah himself.

 

[kenod]

Mee,

I think you are entitled to your beliefs, as everyone is. From my point of view they are wrong, but then you no doubt think I am wrong.

What concerns me though is real life, and putting our Chritianity into practice. The fact is that you and your family are safe today because there is a police service enforcing the law. If my understanding of prophecy comes to pass, we will see a time of great turmoil and trouble - plagues, natural disasters and wars. If you see your wife and children being bashed, raped and murdered, would you stand by and watch passively? If some National Guard troops come along to rescue you, would you appreciate their help?

 

[Quahom1]

yes he did just that , so what is the command for christians from Jesus ? the last thing that Jesus said to his followers was this in matthew 28;19-20
Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things." yes he told them to teach others what he himself had taught them , and to make disciples of all the nations. that is what a christian was commanded to do . we can certainly learn from the ones such as Joshua, how he had great faith in Jehovah , but our command is based on Jesus teachings and commands. and Jesus teachings came from Jehovah himself.

Then, I will keep doing my job, because that is where I believe God wanted me to be, and what He planned for me to do.

I went to visit my folks a little bit back, and spent some time talking at length with a neighbor I've known since I was 16. He and his family being from Lebannon lead to quite an intense discussion about the condition of the world today, and our respective views. Finally, he looked at me and asked point blank, "If me and my family were in trouble, would you help us?" Without thinking I said, "In a New York Second, you're my neighbors, and my friends." He nodded his head slightly and then looked away (to wipe his eyes).

Some people are called to protect others, Mee. It isn't for everyone, but society has to have them. And God set it up that way.

Even God ordered man to "Establish a just court system, with fair laws, and Officers to carry out those laws in a fair and equitable manner." It is the seventh of the first set of laws Jehovah ever gave to man. They are called the Noahidic Laws (the precursor and base to the 10 Commandmants and subsequently the 613 Mizhvat, and Jesus' two commandments), which Jesus declared He came to enforce, or fullfil, not do away with.

Something to consider next time you see a soldier or a police officer...they are doing God's will.

v/r

Q

 

[mee]

Mee,

I think you are entitled to your beliefs, as everyone is. From my point of view they are wrong, but then you no doubt think I am wrong.

What concerns me though is real life, and putting our Chritianity into practice. The fact is that you and your family are safe today because there is a police service enforcing the law. If my understanding of prophecy comes to pass, we will see a time of great turmoil and trouble - plagues, natural disasters and wars. If you see your wife and children being bashed, raped and murdered, would you stand by and watch passively? If some National Guard troops come along to rescue you, would you appreciate their help?

i am not saying that policemen are not doing a good job of protecting the inocent, and of cause JW apprieciate the police , i dont know why you think otherwise. but JW as christians are no part of the world ,we have to live in the world with all of the problems that go with it, and we also as part of our beliefs , feel that it is important to respect the laws of the land we live in . we do not get involved with riots or uprisings, the real life for JW is doing what the bible tells us too, this world is in the power of the wicked one (satan the devil) 1 John 5;19 and the real life will be when Gods kingdom puts an end to satan and his wicked ways. but in the mean time JW get on with being a christian and yes sometime we are caught up in the evil of this world ......... we are in the world , but no part of the world. doesnt it just show how evil the world is , when there are people doing the evil things that you mentioned

 

[mee]

I am looking foreward to the time when no one will harm anyone,Lasting peace can never be established while people are learning to kill.
What guarantee do we have that Christ’s rule will successfully eliminate every kind of war?
The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this. (Isaiah 9:7) God has the will and the means to preserve lasting peace. Jesus has every confidence in this promise. That is why he taught his followers to pray for God’s Kingdom to come and for God’s will to be done on earth. (Matthew 6:9, 10) When that sincere request is finally answered, war will never again blight the surface of the earth.
Even today, those subjecting themselves to the rule of the "Prince of Peace" have ‘beaten their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears.’ (Isaiah 2:2-4)
In God’s due time, Christ will establish on earth a peace that will be global, firmly established, permanent. (Acts 1:7) "To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite." (Isaiah 9:7a) In exercising his authority as the Prince of Peace, Jesus will not resort to tyrannical means. His subjects will not be stripped of their free will and subjugated by force. Rather, all that he will accomplish will be "by means of justice and by means of righteousness." What a refreshing change!

 

[mee]

Are there times when a Christian can kill with the approval of God?

We know that men were commanded to kill in the OT ... this is something of a stumbling block to some, especially as they were told to kill men, women and children.

kquote]
The Son of God, as the one to have ‘the princely rule upon his shoulder,’ is called the "Prince of Peace." (Isa 9:6, 7) It is, therefore, noteworthy that Christ Jesus, while on earth, showed that his servants should not arm themselves for physical warfare, when saying to Peter: "Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword." (Mt 26:52) Figuratively speaking, those who became Christians "beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears." They learned war no more. (Isa 2:4) This and God’s past activities, especially in connection with Israel during Solomon’s reign, point to the peace that will prevail during Jesus’ rule as King.