knowledge and belief

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cavalier

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Much of what I have written comes from a Christian standpoint but I have used this board because I would like to hear what anyone thinks.

I came to this site not really knowing what to believe about religion, spirituality and all assossiated things.
For example, I believed that the Biblical stories about Christ could be true but wasn't able to say that I really believed they happened. I didn't know if this was a problem. Now, on this site, I find other Christians saying that Christ didn't even exist, or even that historically he was actually someone else.
People believe completely different things about the Bible, and looking at other religions we find people believing completely different things about God and the nature of everything.

My first question is this, how can we really know anything?
or should we instead, like Socrates, summise that we are only wise when we know that we know nothing?

All these people believing such different things, most of these people must be wrong, they have to be. OR, we really are like the group of blind men feeling different parts of an elephant in which case we would all be both wrong and right.

Maybe it is not what we believe that is important but rather, how we belive. Your opinions would be most welcome.
 
From my own experience there does seem to be a great deal of difference between belief..................and faith/trust. Belief seems to be a "clinging to", faith/trust seems more a "letting go". And to me it is not just "belief" in doctrines or whatever, but also belief, and a clinging to, one's own "wisdom". There was a time when I identified myself with being wise. I had read a thousand books on religion and philosophy until my head was filled with it to the point where I considered myself "wise". Then a two year bout of severe depression stripped away the "wisdom" and taught me that in effect I knew nothing, or at least nothing that really helped.

To me its all to do with thinking of ourselves as a solid identity - a "self" - that needs to be "spiritual", that seeks to add to its knowledge. Compassion.....love.....are considered as objectives to be attained, that we have the capacity to express because they are objects of "being" that we have. This "spiritual" self then exists in opposition to others who do not measure up to our own standards! Yet compassion is to share the suffering of others, which can bring distress - not a badge of honour that we wear with pride. And I know now that all the "love" I have ever known has been self love. True love is empty of self.

To a certain extent I see beliefs as our attempt to hide from reality. They can shield us from genuine experience. Belief filters reality and give us "explanation" - and once explained, reality no longer has the capacity to transform.................or redeem. Instead of the "new creation" we just seek - and find - justification and confirmation.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit"........................"They are poor who want nothing, know nothing, and have nothing" (Eckhart)
 
Every time I've posted a question on this site I've been surprised and amazed by the responses. I imagine simple yes or no's, agreement or disagreement, both mild and strong.

I think every time though I've had something different, something that goes beyond simple agreement or disagreement.

Thanks for your answer Tariki
 
If people believe in the wrong thing who cares according to themselves they believe in the right thing. In truth maybe no one knows nothing of the true nature of things? At the end of the day we didn't just appear here from nothing. Everything around us on this planet seems to be there for some reason or another so why not ourselves? Everything we believe in is from our own experiences. Strange things (which i don't want to talk about) have happened in my life especially in moments of crisis so i believe in what i believe it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks as long as it works for you.
 
Tariki said:
From my own experience there does seem to be a great deal of difference between belief..................and faith/trust. Belief seems to be a "clinging to", faith/trust seems more a "letting go". And to me it is not just "belief" in doctrines or whatever, but also belief, and a clinging to, one's own "wisdom". There was a time when I identified myself with being wise. I had read a thousand books on religion and philosophy until my head was filled with it to the point where I considered myself "wise". Then a two year bout of severe depression stripped away the "wisdom" and taught me that in effect I knew nothing, or at least nothing that really helped.

To me its all to do with thinking of ourselves as a solid identity - a "self" - that needs to be "spiritual", that seeks to add to its knowledge. Compassion.....love.....are considered as objectives to be attained, that we have the capacity to express because they are objects of "being" that we have. This "spiritual" self then exists in opposition to others who do not measure up to our own standards! Yet compassion is to share the suffering of others, which can bring distress - not a badge of honour that we wear with pride. And I know now that all the "love" I have ever known has been self love. True love is empty of self.

To a certain extent I see beliefs as our attempt to hide from reality. They can shield us from genuine experience. Belief filters reality and give us "explanation" - and once explained, reality no longer has the capacity to transform.................or redeem. Instead of the "new creation" we just seek - and find - justification and confirmation.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit"........................"They are poor who want nothing, know nothing, and have nothing" (Eckhart)
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Hi Tariki. you are so right about how a "crisis of the heart" can have the effect of exposing us to our false forms of "self-security," bolstered by belief systems, even belief systems that seem to emphasize having none. In my case, (as in a thread I started on spiritual humility), I make passing mention of such and how it pulled me out of my "head" into the raw openness of the "heart"-that is the territory of trust & faith (faith as a willingness to remain open to whatever Life sends us not faith as in belief system). Ironically, one can actually even with a Buddhist framework which is all about not getting too identified with beliefs turn that into the belief system with which to identify of course.:) I hope not to reencase that heart with too much "believing" but I'm not sure to what degree it's humanly possible to remain belief-free even if it's only beliefs in methods for keeping oneself open to Life's lessons. Afterall, even a remarkable mystical thinker such as Eckhart who was very open nevertheless couched most of his insights within an essentially Christian "belief" system. I can only hope my current lessons enable me to hold any beliefs I have more lightly. I do know that my heart needs to be my guide as in Corinthians-if I think I'm speaking with the tongues of angels but my love is lagging I'll know my "self" is getting too uppity and my beliefs are getting a strangle hold on me again.
 
Hi, and Peace to All Here--

Tariki, what a beautiful and thoughtful post. Thank you.

Tariki said:
Belief seems to be a "clinging to", faith/trust seems more a "letting go". And to me it is not just "belief" in doctrines or whatever, but also belief, and a clinging to, one's own "wisdom".
Click to expand...

I do see what you mean here. You have made me think. I usually try to avoid the "IMO" or "In my opinion" intro to my posted or spoken thoughts if I am trying to express what it is in which I trust. In these cases, I use the phrase "I believe...this or that." Hmmm...now I am thinking about how I might distinguish "belief" and "trust"! :)

Tariki said:
And I know now that all the "love" I have ever known has been self love. True love is empty of self.
Click to expand...

earl said:
Afterall, even a remarkable mystical thinker such as Eckhart who was very open nevertheless couched most of his insights within an essentially Christian "belief" system. I can only hope my current lessons enable me to hold any beliefs I have more lightly. I do know that my heart needs to be my guide as in Corinthians-if I think I'm speaking with the tongues of angels but my love is lagging I'll know my "self" is getting too uppity and my beliefs are getting a strangle hold on me again.
Click to expand...

I believe--or maybe I should say I trust that you have both expressed the greatest truth that can be expressed in human language. I love to listen to remarkable mystic thinkers.;)

InPeace,
InLove
 
InLove said:
Hmmm...now I am thinking about how I might distinguish "belief" and "trust"!

InPeace,
InLove
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Wow, wow wow!

I just got home from church and I am astounded to find this post by you InLove. Astounded!

Some of you may remember a bit I said last year, without a lot of detail, about having experienced something, God speaking directly to me. In a time when I was finding my way (and I still am of course), exploring a lot of issues in my heart, and with you all here at CR, and in prayer...I was gifted with the amazing experience of having many of my questions addressed, in a way that to me could not be written off as coincidence, through the liturgy at church. Most of the details are too personal, or now too fuzzy in my memory to relate, but in essence I found myself praying my questions to God before the start of church, and having those exact same questions answered in the liturgy and sermon. I would leave church shaking, if not in tears. And church is not supposed to be about me!

Well, those experiences kind of dried up for me since then, not that church has been dry or that I feel God as been absent; not at all. Quite the opposite in fact. Things just calmed down for me and those experiences also quieted. God speaks to me still in the liturgy, but it's been back to a more 'regular' way for a while.

But, today I again went to church with a question in my heart. And almost immediately things became different. In fact, the entire service was done differently than I have ever seen before (and those of you used to liturgical worship know how significant this is; we always do things pretty much the same :) ).

Actually, I had a couple of things in my heart, and my first questions was answered so directly and profoundly I decided immediately that I would share it with you that God was 'speaking' to me again. But, a few minutes later, a deeper question was addressed and it washed away all else.

Today we did not say the creed the way it is written in the Book of Common Prayer.

Today we substituted the word 'trust' for 'believe.'

luna
 
lunamoth said:
Wow, wow wow!

I just got home from church and I am astounded to find this post by you InLove. Astounded!

Some of you may remember a bit I said last year, without a lot of detail, about having experienced something, God speaking directly to me. In a time when I was finding my way (and I still am of course), exploring a lot of issues in my heart, and with you all here at CR, and in prayer...I was gifted with the amazing experience of having many of my questions addressed, in a way that to me could not be written off as coincidence, through the liturgy at church. Most of the details are too personal, or now too fuzzy in my memory to relate, but in essence I found myself praying my questions to God before the start of church, and having those exact same questions answered in the liturgy and sermon. I would leave church shaking, if not in tears. And church is not supposed to be about me!

Well, those experiences kind of dried up for me since then, not that church has been dry or that I feel God as been absent; not at all. Quite the opposite in fact. Things just calmed down for me and those experiences also quieted. God speaks to me still in the liturgy, but it's been back to a more 'regular' way for a while.

But, today I again went to church with a question in my heart. And almost immediately things became different. In fact, the entire service was done differently than I have ever seen before (and those of you used to liturgical worship know how significant this is; we always do things pretty much the same :) ).

Actually, I had a couple of things in my heart, and my first questions was answered so directly and profoundly I decided immediately that I would share it with you that God was 'speaking' to me again. But, a few minutes later, a deeper question was addressed and it washed away all else.

Today we did not say the creed the way it is written in the Book of Common Prayer.

Today we substituted the word 'trust' for 'believe.'

luna
Click to expand...

added in edit: I note you made this post at 11:18 am mountain time InLove. I would not be surprised if this is the exact same time I was saying the creed today.
 
Dear lunamoth,

God has great timing, doesn't "He"?:)

InPeace,
InLove
 
InLove said:
Dear lunamoth,

God has great timing, doesn't "He"?:)

InPeace,
InLove
Click to expand...

You know, I expect to get answers when I pray, but somehow I'm still always amazed when the Holy Spirit shows up. :)
 
Hi InLove and lunamoth. InLove, I'm sure you must have faced some real trials by "heart" in recent time, (though hopefully at least somewhat resolved for you). But am sure there's much you could share if so inclined. I've always been drawn to both the mystical side of Christianity, (sadly am not much for its traditional presentations nor church services), and to Buddhism with the latter predominating my "practices" for years. But a crisis of the heart-for me at least-brought me back to including the "Christ" more in my practices of the heart. While I never could relate to the austere asceticism of the desert fathers and mothers, (I'm definitely with the Buddha re the "middle way"), their writings about contemplative methods and the "heart" are profound. I have a real appreciation for orthodox Christianity. For instance, I recently found this quotation from St. Macarius regarding the heart on an orthodox website:

"The heart is but a small vessel; and yet dragons and lions are there, and there poisonous creatures and all the treasures of wickedness; rough, uneven paths are there, and gaping chasms. There likewise is God, there are the angels, the heavenly cities and the treasures of grace; all things are there."

One of the interesting things I discovered while spontaneously doing the prayer of the heart was I could emotionally understand what these early Christians were talking about when they so often wrote how spiritual progress involved tears-as a good thing. As I longed for a healed/open heart, I began to weep with the sudden realization of the many moments I had held it closed-seemed almost like how near death experiencers described the "life review" they underwent during their N.D.E. If there is a "judgment day," it would seem it is a judgment of our own hearts. I'm beginning to think that our "hearts" are repositories of this phenomenon.:) have a good one, earl
 
Hi earl, all,

credo, translated in the Nicene and Apostles' Creeds as 'I believe,' is actually better translated..."I give my heart to."

"Thus, when we say credo at the beginning of th creed, we are saying, "I give my heart to God." And who is that? Who is the God to whom we commit our loyalty and allegiance? The rest of the creed tells the story of the one to whom we give our hearts: god as the maker of heaven and earth, God as known in Jesus, God as present in the Spirit."

(from: The Heart of Christianity by Marcus Borg).

luna
 
Luna, Earl, InLove, Cav, Tariki:

Since about 1980 I have had many, many such experiences. They are not incidents of good timing, they are not miracles, they are simply G-d talking directly to each of us inside of our heads, and leading each of us to do what is in our hearts. Such instances have compelled me to write things that I could have never thought of on my own. I simply did not have a choice in the matter. And this all happened to me after a near death experience.

The bottom line to all of this is that "there are no coincidences". May the spirit that is love continue to bless you and yours each day. Thank you so much for what you have all said here.

flow....:)
 
cavalier said:
Maybe it is not what we believe that is important but rather, how we belive.
Click to expand...
I believe it is what we do, with what we believe (and know), that matters most. And yes, the more we know, the more we know how little we really know. ;)

Love and Light,

Andrew
 
Hi Cavalier,

It isn't hard to find things to agree with here, thats for sure. I find that Tariki really nailed it with the idea about beliefs helping us to hide from directly experiencing reality. There is a reason why the Zen "Beginners Mind" is so very important. I often smile when I or anyone else uses the term "my belief" as if the idea didn't exist before I came on the scene and declared it. Fact is these ideas were floating around a very long time before I got here,and, I'm pretty sure they will be around a while after I'm gone. It seems that the worst thing that can be done with a belief is to identify ourselves with it. I'm sure you hear it all the time. I'm a democrat! I'm a Republicant, how dare you step on MY BELIEF! Oh please how about cranking the ol ego down a notch there cupcake.

In another post Kenod explained why it was important for him to feel that he was right, and I do agree that we have to step forward each day with a feeling of confidence. Further, I think that our confidence is made powerful by a sense of where the source of all things is. Not in outer dogma, codes, creeds, prayers, mandalas, mantras, Thangkas, Icons, fetishes, or any other graven image, (and I include IDEAS, or beliefs with graven images) but in the silence, in the prayer of the heart that Earl speaks of is where our confidence lies.
Sorry for getting preachy, but you get the idea:D
 
You're absolutely right Paladin. I go my habit of starting my statements with, "It is my belief", when I had a job at the executive level of a large university.

I was taught that it was at once the most definitive and yet most ambiguous intro to use when one was introducing ideas that might affect policy. We all forget just how much of our ingrained behavior is instigated by our immersion in the political deceptions of society, and much of that was created for common people beginning with the politics of universities in the middle ages. Of course we all see it now everyday, ad nauseum, whenever we turn on the TV. No escape from this... it seems.

flow....;)
 
Allow me to speak up a bit For beliefs. While I tend to be a fairly "empirical" guy in that I don't tend to concoct or uncritically buy into many big metaphysical theories that are entirely beyond any inkling of what I can experience, some big ideas do tend to "take hold" on me. We sometimes talk around here like it's a badge of dishonor to admit to having any beliefs, though.:D Tariki certainly made a good point regarding how we often allow our beliefs to be a defensive shield to protect our hearts & heads from whatever aspect of reality presenting itself to us and so "taking hold" is often a case of digging in our mental, emotional heels to protect a false or incomplete view of self and other. But of course both taking hold and letting go have their important places in Life. In fact, if we did not believe that this religious/spiritual journey no matter how nebulous was important and thereby engage with it/take hold of it, we wouldn't spend our time exploring our chosen paths or time here chatting about it either. I think Cavalier's point about it being not so much what we believe but how we believe is the crux. That links to Tariki's point: what function do our beliefs serve for us? Do they assist us on our journey or are they actually impeding it? Though those questions cannot in themselves suggest whether a particular set of beliefs is "right" in the sense of some sort of grand, metaphysical Truth, they certainly can shed light on how we are "using" our beliefs-sometimes an honest reexamination of those moments adjusts our beliefs and sometimes it adjusts us;) Those then become the moments we loosen our grasp and let go a little to reengage and take hold of the moment in new ways. Life seems rife from end to end with all sorts in interwoven dualities or polarities or phases -what have you -with taking hold & letting go just 1 example. Is "ultimate" reality "non-dual?" Who knows? (I meant that in the conventional sense just now not the koanic one though guess that perhaps that should sneek into the conversation too:p ) But I think that we need to be careful not to inadvertently "take hold" of 1 pole while castigating another. We can turn non-belief into a belief of course. Not to worry perhaps 'cause you can't be human and not "hold" beliefs unless you're brain dead. We just need to hold them lightly. Take care, earl
 
Hi, Peace--

earl said:
But I think that we need to be careful not to inadvertently "take hold" of 1 pole while castigating another. We can turn non-belief into a belief of course. Not to worry perhaps 'cause you can't be human and not "hold" beliefs unless you're brain dead. We just need to hold them lightly. Take care, earl
Click to expand...

I have been trying to figure out how to say this for a while now, earl. Thanks. I might say "hold them carefully" or "gently". Because of what Tariki pointed out, and because of what lunamoth reported, I have learned that I need to, as you like to say, "take care" when I speak, and try to understand the implications of what I am about to say. I will probably, as a result, use the terms "I trust" or "In my experience" more often now. But I am pretty sure there will be times when nothing but "I believe" will do. Everything has its season.:)

InPeace,
InLove
 
I very often use the term "I think" and for very good reason. It is quite normal that what I think is not the commonly-held belief. Yet it IS my experience and my conviction. Rather than stating it as an objective truth that everyone must accept or reject, I prefer to say things like I think, I believe, in my opinion....That allows others to keep their own experiences, convictions, beliefs...

Cavalier, to your questions. I identify with your confusion. There is so MUCH conflicting information out there.

Originally posted by Cavalier:

My first question is this, how can we really know anything?
or should we instead, like Socrates, summise that we are only wise when we know that we know nothing?
Click to expand...

For me there is no "should" about it. It's a fact. It's reality. I know very little. I may be able to spout a lot of facts and other information but in comparison to what is out there to be known, it's barely a drop in the ocean. I operate on the opinion that all of the cumulative knowledge of humanity over the ages barely scratches the surface of reality. One brief scan on an article about the size of the universe confirms this belief. This universe is far larger than any ancient could begin to think.

All these people believing such different things, most of these people must be wrong, they have to be. OR, we really are like the group of blind men feeling different parts of an elephant in which case we would all be both wrong and right.
Click to expand...

I confess that after reading Tariki's post I felt like I got a better view of the true meaning of arrogance than I have ever had. I did not know that people think they are wise just because they have crammed their brains full of information. As several people have suggested, integrating that information with life experience brings about a level of insight and heart knowing that deepens and enriches life. Maybe that's when we begin to realize that we really don't know anything.

I believe on the level of deep conviction that, like you suggest about the blind men and the elephant, what we experience in one little lifetime is but one part of reality. One day when I was deeply seeking to understand about God, it came to me that God is like an octagon with eight sides. Christianity is one expression of those eight sides of God.

The number 8 is sacred in many religions though not in Christianity so far as I know. 7, 3, and 12 are far more prominent in The West e.g. the seven wonders of the world, seven days of the week, the Trinity, we list sets of three items when giving examples, twelve disciples, twelve tribes of Israel, twelve days of Christmas, a dozen, twelve months of the year....

When I suggest in the presence of Christians about Christianity being but one expression of God I often meet with blunt and blatant disagreement however subtly and politely expressed. Some will simply not comment, and after digesting the fact that I said something as blaphemous as all that they will change the subject. It's like bumping up against a stone wall. No, it's more like the thud of bumping against a wall of planks.

In summary, I think it's unknowable what we can know. Live in the moment. Be aware of the details, of colour, line, shape, texture. Carry the big picture of your world in your head at all times. Be prepared to die tomorrow but expect to live forever. How's that for paradoxes of the unknowable;)
 
Hi, Peace--

RubySera_Martin said:
In summary, I think it's unknowable what we can know. Live in the moment. Be aware of the details, of colour, line, shape, texture. Carry the big picture of your world in your head at all times. Be prepared to die tomorrow but expect to live forever. How's that for paradoxes of the unknowable;)
Click to expand...

Beautiful words, Ruby.;)

InPeace,
InLove
 
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