homosexuality

kenod

"to live is Christ"
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This article appeared in my local paper just today - this was the only place I could find it on the www (excerpts only).

The archbishop [ of Canterbury] said that he was determined to preserve the unity of the church from being destroyed by the warring factions in the gay crisis. He said he has backed a resolution which says that homosexual practice is incompatible with the Bible.



The revelations came in a newspaper interview last week in which the archbishop denied that it was time for the church to accept homosexual relationships, suggesting that it should be welcoming rather than inclusive. "I don't believe inclusion is a value in itself. Welcome is. We don't say 'Come in and we ask no questions'. I do believe conversion means conversion of habits, behaviours, ideas, emotions," he told a Dutch journalist.
http://www.btw3.com/blog/2006_08_01_archive.html




Questions:

1. Is homosexual practice incompatible with the Bible?

2. Does conversion mean "conversion of habits, behaviours, ideas, emotions"?

3, What is the difference between "inclusion" and "welcome"?

4. Can a homosexual be a Christian?
 
Re: homosexuality/inclusiveness

kenod said:
1. Is homosexual practice incompatible with the Bible?
Not if you think Christ preached Love.
kenod said:
2. Does conversion mean "conversion of habits, behaviours, ideas, emotions"?
Yep, sure does.

kenod said:
3, What is the difference between "inclusion" and "welcome"?
The latter includes the former. If Christ came to your church for a visit, would you merely "include" him?

kenod said:
4. Can a homosexual be a Christian?
Yep, sure can. My question would be, can a person not welcome a homosexual, and still be a Christian? I'm tempted to say, "No," but I think if one's heart is in the right place ... then there might be hope.

I'm not talking about La Cage aux Folles, here. I don't mean the flaming guy with the pink boa who wants to wear it to church. Nor the women who feel like they should become romantic in/on the pew in order to prove a point.

But we should all ask ourselves, what IS the point that is often trying to be proved by such demonstrations? ;)

Ahhh, now we're getting somewhere. If we can't smile, knowning someone is gay, and let them be about their own business (lives, liberty, pursuit of happiness) in their own way ... then I submit it is we who have the problem. On the one hand, this has nothing to do with being Christian. On the other hand, it has everything.

Nevertheless, there are those who will preach. Without exception, I believe this would apply: Matthew 7:5 :)

Regards,

andrew (taijasi)
 
as i beleive it to be, homosexuality is considered a sin in all major religions, becasue it is un-natural. the way i think religion says homosexuality should be dealt with is by avoiding certain situations and actions, but in sonme other major religions, it is thought of a phsycological thing. just as nobody is born a theif, nobody is born gay, i once read. i think the church is becoming leniant in some beleifs, a homosexuality would have been strictly forbidden, as in the catholic church it stil is a major no no, but some churches allow it, how do they get away with changing the beleifs and the will of god?
 
james said:
as i beleive it to be, homosexuality is considered a sin in all major religions, becasue it is un-natural. ... how do they get away with changing the beleifs and the will of god?
Seems to me that it is fairly natural...that many species including humans have been in this behaviour for quite a while....hence the reason the writers of the bible and other religious texts have attempted to control it by indicating that it was against code, and the head inspector deemed it so.

Some societies in the past and in the present have homosexuality so prevelant it is if not the norm....fairly normal. The argument on it being a born behaviour v. found is being discussed vehemently and is far from closed.

It appears in Christian denominations that require celibacy, this practice increases homosexuality...and I've often heard talk that one knows which seminaries are more friendly.

In regards to acceptance, it is my understanding that is a homosexual...yet celibate...does not take action...most denominations will accept.

Darn touchy subject, but like any both sides find bible verses to point at to emphasize their point.\

I'm of the opinion that G-d is involved in all....omniscient and all that...
 
Hello All:

It has been demonstrated in research findings that homosexuality is really a matter of genetic predisposition rather than a lifestyle choice or behavior pattern that one "falls" into. The bottom line is that people are what they are, and whether or not the Bible is compatible with the way that the world really is, people in the real world must get along to go along.

Do we exclude people because they have green eyes, blue eyes, brown eyes? People may have 20,000 years ago, but experience taught us that this was, over time, only a way to generate conflict in society, not harmony. Rent the movie Clan Of The Cave Bear if a visual example would help your understanding of this.

The intellectually corrupt societal methods of exclusion and mass rejection really solve nothing in the long term, and only generate conflict. Rather, they are reflections of a selfish desire to keep things as they are in a blatant denial of the realities of the world. The failure of Apartied in S. Africa, and racial segregation in the USA have shown us all the fallacies inherent in the exclusionary approaches of societies to preserve the status quo.

I know that this is an almost impossible concept for conservative fundamentalists of any religion to accept, but in the long run, the world forces us all to accept the directions of nature whether we agree or not, simply because we are all a part of nature and cannot escape that fact.


Here is an article that I recently ran across in my research, part of which asks the question of why there seems to be an increasing degree of sexual ambiguity in many modern societies in our times.

flow....:cool:

Homosexuality is in the genes, study claims
July 03, 2005 9:40 AM EDT

Sexuality is determined well before birth and is not the result of social influences, scientists will claim this week. The authors of a new book published on Thursday say that sexual orientation is decided by a mixture of genetic factors and hormonal activity in the womb " and that homosexuality cannot be 'cured'.

Born Gay by Dr Glenn Wilson of the Institute of Psychiatry and Dr Qazi Rahman of the University of East London has been welcomed by gay rights activists, who say it proves there is nothing 'unnatural' about homosexuality. But the book has also been criticised for suggesting that men who see themselves as bisexual should be classed as gay.

Born Gay summarises the latest research into the psychobiology of sex orientation, concluding that studies with twins show that around 30 to 50 per cent of sexual orientation is due to genes. The rest is the result of processes in the womb.

The genes involved in sexual orientation produce receptors in the brain which absorb male hormones released by the developing baby's testicles. It is thought that in gay men these receptors are less sensitive or are blocked. The absence of testosterone results in the brain developing certain female characteristics, including attraction to men.

It is also believed that the unabsorbed testosterone affects the body's extremities. This would explain, Dr Rahman said, why the finger lengths of adult gay men tended to be more male-like that those of heterosexual men, in that their index fingers are significantly shorter than their ring finger. (Women's index and ring fingers tend to be of equal length).

The hormone may also be responsible for increasing the size of the penis, another extremity. A number of studies have shown that gay men are better endowed than heterosexual men.

The scientists also claim that true bisexual men are extremely rare. Studies showed that heterosexual men respond to lesbian pornography, but not to gay pornography. 'What's interesting is that bisexual men do not response to both type of stimuli. Almost 95 per cent of bisexual men respond exclusively to gay stimuli,' said Dr Rahman.

According to the researchers, there is much evidence to contradict claims that homosexuality is caused by social factors, such as seduction, or that it can be learnt. 'Showing that homosexuality is not due to learning, or seduction, or smothering mothers has very clear implications for social policies, Dr Rahman added. 'Clause 28 emphasised the notion that homosexuality should not be talked about because that might encourage young people to experiment.
 
Not that I question the pre-disposition theory (well I do), however, that does leave the door open for other forms of sexual expression as being a pre-disposition as well, such as pedophilia, bestiality, incest, divorce, adultery. What is the difference between them? Currently legality.

Now the Bible deals in moral laws. And though the secular law states that Homosexual behavior among consenting adults is legal, the Bible makes no such claim...for any type of sexual behavior other than that sanctioned in marriage, between man and woman. That said (and I don't really see the need to bring up again, the scriptures that point this out, let us look at the questions brought up by Kenod:

Questions:

1. Is homosexual practice incompatible with the Bible?

Yes.

2. Does conversion mean "conversion of habits, behaviours, ideas, emotions"?

It means a decision to follow church and Biblical laws and edicts, in order to belong to the church and present an active belief in what ever faith one is declaring.

3, What is the difference between "inclusion" and "welcome"?

Common sense really. One is welcomed in from the cold, or welcomed when injured, or in need, or down trodden, or lost. Inclusion is to become one with a group or congregation, or a faith. To be actively part of (hence a potential influence of)...

4. Can a homosexual be a Christian? Of course. But that doesn't mean the person in question isn't in a state of sin, or out of balance (according to the Bible).

And any church can and does have the right to determine "ex-parthied, or excommunication, for any member who does not abide by the laws set within that church. Churches are not public establishments, and not subject to the fair access act. At least not yet, and when (not if) legal issue is brought against churches, because of this...then the First Amendment will be brought to the forefront. And I think you will see some very strange partnerships fighting on the same side, because of the ramifications of changing the First Amendment will cause.

v/r

Q
 
The Church certainly does have the right to put their foot down on the issue of homosexuality...that is, if they really believe it's the best thing to do. However, flowperson brings up a very good point. Homosexuality has been going on for thousands upon thousands of years. It isn't as if it's some new societal fad...it's nature, folks. Furthermore, the use of the word "unnatural" to describe things such as homosexuality is completely absurd. I can see the use of the word "unnatural" to indicate something that isn't necessarily intuitive to a certain person, but the idea that homosexuality is literally an act that defies nature is ridiculous. It's just a cultural taboo...and, historically speaking, people often confuse their cultural presuppositions for natural law.

I was practically rolling on the floor in hysterical laughter when I was watching an interview on television recently. The interviewer was gay, and the interviewee was clearly opposed to homosexuality. The interview came to a climax with the interviewee ranting that "he could let it go, but 'they' better not come around recruiting his children." Oh man...I'm sorry, but that is truly comical. People are so afraid that they are led to see homosexuality as some kind of organized recruiting agency, apparently with local branches where you can be "officially" dubbed homosexual...maybe you get a membership card, too? LOL. That is just too funny.

Are people really against homosexuality because the Bible says so...or are people just using the Bible to validate their fear and intolerance as respectable from a spiritual perspective? C'mon... If somebody is disgusted by homosexuality, then why not just admit that they personally don't like it? Don't put personal sentiments into the mouth of God in order to validate on-going wars against behavior that is unquestionably natural. That's an even greater shame than any taboo behavior.

i think the church is becoming leniant in some beleifs, a homosexuality would have been strictly forbidden, as in the catholic church it stil is a major no no, but some churches allow it, how do they get away with changing the beleifs and the will of god?

With all due respect, the vast majority of what people tout as the "will of God" is more accurately their personal interpretation of the will of God. Take one look at the vast amount of diversity in Christianity and it should become plainly clear that people have never really come to many agreements as to what the word of God actually does mean.
 
With all due respect Jiii, the Bible is what was in question. And the Bible states clearly that no sexual behavior (NONE) outside of marriage is acceptable. Doesn't matter what kind, if it is outside of marriage (between man and woman), it isn't acceptable. Not arguing nature, or laws of the land...

Kenod asked about the Bible's laws. I simply presented them, as asked.

v/r

Q
 
Sorry, Quahom...I wasn't necessarily challenging what you said...mostly just adding my thoughts. But, I suppose that what you say raises a good point:

Has strict interpretation of a two-thousand year old book come to conflict with society because the cultural values contained therein are outdated?
 
jiii said:
Sorry, Quahom...I wasn't necessarily challenging what you said...mostly just adding my thoughts. But, I suppose that what you say raises a good point:

Has strict interpretation of a two-thousand year old book come to conflict with society because the cultural values contained therein are outdated?

When all else fails, go back to the original rules?

Now there is a strong possibility...

yes I countered your question with a question...tell me, which is more valid? tried and true, or new and untried?

v/r

Q
 
originally posted by jiii

Has strict interpretation of a two-thousand year old book come to conflict with society because the cultural values contained therein are outdated?

originally posted by Quahom1

When all else fails, go back to the original rules?
yes I countered your question with a question...tell me, which is more valid? tried and true, or new and untried?

Well, that's a good question. I don't exactly think everything has failed yet, though. The sentiment that "this is a degenerate age" has been being tucked into spiritual books for well over two-thousand years. Frankly, I sometimes question if that isn't just an age-old way for making people feel like there's some serious urgency to looking into so-and-so doctrine.

Don't get me wrong, I'm wide awake and see the many ills of society today just as anybody else does. However, I do always make sure to balance myself by remembering that regardless of what our inheritance of values, judgement and collective consciousness might say, the world is exactly as it would naturally be. Many of us seem to judge actions and others based upon the almost subconscious (or sometimes entirely intentional) feeling that these things are somehow instrinsically unnatural. They defy the natural course of things. On the contrary, though, they are precisely the natural course of things as we've set them up. They are part and parcel to the natural reality of this planet. If we continue to address our world with idea that there really are metaphysical demons out there, things that are just inherently wrong, then we will continue to enforce many concepts of reality which will perpetually be out of our control.

Homosexuality is an excellent example of this. It's never going to go away, first of all. As long as there are men and women that have sex, there's always going to be the chance that two men will give it a shot. Same for females. This is an unpreventable possibility...and frankly, it doesn't really seem to hurt anybody. What's the problem, then? Well, people are convinced that it's "unnatural", that nature disowns those that do it (as does God, presumably)...nowadays, we use that strange euphemism to describe things that we might've dubbed "demonic" a thousand years ago when the RCC was in charge of Europe. Instead of burning them at the stake, we burn gays and lesbians at the "proverbial" stake of morality. Luckily, this does much less physical harm...and death is not the most likely result...but that kind of blind fanaticism is certainly still there.

So, if the original rules would've involved killing gays rather than publically denouncing them, then I would say no...the original rules were much, much worse.

-jiii
 
Everything you say is possible. Everything. But the Bible is specific. NO SEX OUTSIDE OF MARRIAGE. That is it. It does not matter what the world thinks, man. There is NO EXCEPTION to THE RULE. (biblically speaking). Dude! You have your legal ok, what do you think, Christians are going to follow suite? Give you an ok? No. It is a sin (out of balance) to have sex outside the marriage. That is Biblically it. If you don't like it...the Liberal Christianity forum is two doors down on the left...

There is no exception.
 
Let me say at the outset that I believe a person with same sex attraction can be a Christian, and participate fully in the life of the Church. The dilemma for the Church is how to respond to same sex behaviour.


For those churches whose ultimate authority is the Bible, there seems little doubt that same sex behaviour is unacceptable, in other words it is sinful. It is impossible for such churches to condone wilful sin. This seems to be the view held by all mainstream churches up until relatively recent times.

If that is the stand, and for myself I can see no other, then how do we minister to those who identify as homosexuals?

Firstly, I think we need to try to understand same sex orientation. It is not an either or situation - homosexuality is on a continuum, with exclusively homosexual behaviour at one end and exclusively heterosexual behaviour at the other. In between there are different expressions of sexuality.

Secondly, we cannot argue just one cause, such as genetic predisposition. There are also psycho-social factors, and in some cases these non-biological influences may predominate. Even if we feel that genetic predisposition is the major contributor to same sex attraction, we still have to wrestle with the question - so what? Genetic predisposition in itself is not a reason to condone a behaviour - there is a predisposition to violence … and probably even to becoming president!

For churches which take their stand on the authority of the Bible, the full participation of practising homosexuals is not compatible with their faith, and it is unreasonable to demand that churches change their beliefs. However, should the church take an active role in opposing same sex rights, and the promotion of homosexuality as an equivalent alternative to heterosexuality?
 
You have insurance for you and your wife and your family...it works. Any person hooking up with a partner (of anykind), demanding the same insurance rights, and benefits at/and retirement, as you, will cost you to the point where you can't insure your family...that is a fact.

Your call...that is a simple fact of life, and any insurance company will admit, it can't take care of everybody, on a "family" base. They were never designed to.

As far as identifying with a "homosexual" and Christianity?... You identify with a human being, and Christianity. I think you need to take the "homo" out of sexual, and move on from there...

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
As far as identifying with a "homosexual" and Christianity?... You identify with a human being, and Christianity. I think you need to take the "homo" out of sexual, and move on from there...
v/r
Q

I'm not sure I understood your last para ... would you elaborate a little for me ... and have a shot at the last question in my post.
 
kenod said:
I'm not sure I understood your last para ... would you elaborate a little for me.

No, Kenod, I won't. This issue has been hashed over so many times. I'm sorry if you missed the boat on this one. The Bible is specific. No sex, unless you are married...that's it.

Civil Law is law, the Bible is the Bible law.

Deal with it, in your own spiritual way.

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
You have insurance for you and your wife and your family...it works. Any person hooking up with a partner (of anykind), demanding the same insurance rights, and benefits at/and retirement, as you, will cost you to the point where you can't insure your family...that is a fact.

In what way does it cost a married employee for another employee in a same-sex relationship to have health insurance?
 
A great many things in the Bible are now-a-days taken with an enormous, salt-lick sized chunk of salt. We don't seem to have a problem drawing some lines between what is and isn't simply archaic. And it's not always a liberalizing process: Nothing in the Bible prohibits polygamy, for example. Polygamy is a very old-fashioned family value, but it no longer fits with our social structure. I would argue, similarly, that marginalizing homosexuals is archaic and no longer fits our social structure.

What I won't argue is that the Bible really doesn't condemn homosexuality: it clearly does. I think that we should decide to reject that condemnation as archaic and unworkable. I think that we should have the courage to say "no, on this point the Bible is wrong", rather than trying to find a way to sanitize it.

Chris
 
Quahom1 said:
And the Bible states clearly that no sexual behavior (NONE) outside of marriage is acceptable. Doesn't matter what kind, if it is outside of marriage (between man and woman), it isn't acceptable.

That's a good point - all too often we see arguments against specific proscriptions rather than the framework they're working from.
 
Quahom1 said:
No, Kenod, I won't. This issue has been hashed over so many times. I'm sorry if you missed the boat on this one. The Bible is specific. No sex, unless you are married...that's it.

Civil Law is law, the Bible is the Bible law.

Deal with it, in your own spiritual way.

v/r

Q

It's ok, we agree on that.

What I'm trying to explore is how we can provide ministry beyond saying "you are a sinner- go to hell".
 
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