homosexuality

[kenod]

The universe is flying apart. The distance between solar systems and between galaxies continues to increase constantly.

As time increases to infinity, the distance between bodies of matter in space also increases to infinity. In a few million years, the distance between the milky way and other galaxies will be much greater than it is right now.

Do a search on "dark matter" .. it is really interesting if you like that sort of stuff. Galaxies are travelling further from each other but at a controlled, though increasing speed. Dark (or unseen) matter has been suggested as the force that holds the universe together - not all scientists agree, although all know there is another force needed to explain what is happening.

 

[Quahom1]

I'm inclined to think, based on my own experience of course, that one man and one woman make the best team. I don't see any reason religious organizations can't discriminate against anyone they choose. Businesses put up signs that say "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone", there's no reason churches have to be any different.

What bugs me is that gay people get an easy out from the ties that bind the rest of us to society. I think they should have to get up in front God and everyone and take marriage vows that bind them and expose them to public scrutiny just like the rest of us. How is it that we let them get away with shirking their community responsibility? It's not fair I tell you.

Chris

One of the problems we deal with here is that there is NO BLUEPRINT, to follow, pertaining to a union of two human beings other than male and female. Physically speaking the purpose of a male and female union is to pro-create, and propegate the species. Again, physically speaking there is no benefit to the survival of a species by mating two of the same sex together.

So we are left with two things. Emotional and psychological "mating". Well, we do that every day, but we don't call them "little marriages". I have a best friend (he's been my loved friend 20 years before I ever married my wife). But the bond is that. Best friend, and like a brother. Doesn't mean I want to get in bed with him, or get married to him. And you know what, that kind of relationship is smiled upon and encouraged by society, and by the bible. That is what keeps families tight, and communities strong. And there is no requirement for a ceremony to keep that bond. It just is.

What we are talking about here, is lust, physical lust. And in reality, lust knows no gender, but taken out of context can be very unhealthy, not only for the two involved, but for those around the two. What you are describing is a demand for equal rights based on lust, but no responsibility for others or community, or the social fabric. Again, it has nothing to do with gender. That is why we don't give marital status rights to anyone not married, let alone two of the same gender.

Right back to the bible...it destroys the fabric of the society.

v/r

Q

edit: case in point consider the "stress" exhibited right now in this little thread...and we're just talking about it...

 

[Dondi]

So is alcoholism. That doesn't mean we condone the behavior of one who is affected by it. Why, because it damages the relationships of those around it. Unless you are implying that such "pre-dispositions" are beneficial to man in general, and those affected by them in particular...? If so, I would truly like to see the evidence of such beneficial results.

You evidently didn't read the rest of my post. Or missed my point

I wasn't condoning homosexuality, rather because of those who believe that homosexuality is genetic and thus justifies the behavior, I merely wanted to point out that the logic is flawed because we are flawed.

If we view sin as a condition of sinful man due to the force of the Fall, then we must also view that the intention of God's Law is to set the record straight on what is acceptable behavior.

Because of our sinful nature, we cannot follow the Law......in and of ourselves. And that is the reason for Christ's righteousness and the power of the Holy Spirit who indwells us so that we might live righteously.

Yes, there are those who will have a natural tendancy toward homosexuality, just as there are those with a tendency toward alcoholism, or any other vice. Because our fallen nature compells us to do so. But it is God's intention to save us from ourselves. And that requires a submission to His Will in obedience as the Holy Spirit empowers us to have victory over the thing that threatens to destroy us. The Life of God in us will bring us back to the original Creation.

 

[Quahom1]

You evidently didn't read the rest of my post. Or missed my point

I wasn't condoning homosexuality, rather because of those who believe that homosexuality is genetic and thus justifies the behavior, I merely wanted to point out that the logic is flawed because we are flawed.

If we view sin as a condition of sinful man due to the force of the Fall, then we must also view that the intention of God's Law is to set the record straight on what is acceptable behavior.

Because of our sinful nature, we cannot follow the Law......in and of ourselves. And that is the reason for Christ's righteousness and the power of the Holy Spirit who indwells us so that we might live righteously.

Yes, there are those who will have a natural tendancy toward homosexuality, just as there are those with a tendency toward alcoholism, or any other vice. Because our fallen nature compells us to do so. But it is God's intention to save us from ourselves. And that requires a submission to His Will in obedience as the Holy Spirit empowers us to have victory over the thing that threatens to destroy us. The Life of God in us will bring us back to the original Creation.

Actually, I was helping to make your point.

See, to admit to pre-disposition to something not in accordance with the continuation and sustainment of life, is to state that there is a flaw...

To accomodate that "flaw" is to enable the flaw to continue, which in turn dissuades from the continuation and sustainment of life...

It does not matter really if there is a Bible or not that says anything about homosexuality, or one night stands, or bedding anything that moves. Society in general has a hard time with such types of behavior. And I don't think it is envy at the freedom others may exhibit...

 

[Dondi]

It does not matter really if there is a Bible or not that says anything about homosexuality, or one night stands, or bedding anything that moves. Society in general has a hard time with such types of behavior. And I don't think it is envy at the freedom others may exhibit...

Oh, but it does matter, Q.

I'm afraid that society has become ever more tolerant of these behaviors. I think you are old enough, Q, that you have seen the progression of moral decay. So the question is, how is our society expected to maintain a sense of morality? By what standard, as you've said, will be our moral compass?

This is probably the foremost reason why the Bible is under such scrutiny lately. Or any religious book that advocates morality, for that matter. Scriptures are a threat to those who wish to do what is right in their eyes. Societal relativism is the downfall of many kingdoms.

 

[Quahom1]

Oh, but it does matter, Q.

I'm afraid that society has become ever more tolerant of these behaviors. I think you are old enough, Q, that you have seen the progression of moral decay. So the question is, how is our society expected to maintain a sense of morality? By what standard, as you've said, will be our moral compass?

This is probably the foremost reason why the Bible is under such scrutiny lately. Or any religious book that advocates morality, for that matter. Scriptures are a threat to those who wish to do what is right in their eyes. Societal relativism is the downfall of many kingdoms.

Dondi,

Thank you for your thoughts on this, and for the invite. What I have seen in my life would strip the sunglasses from your eyes. The Bible under scrutiny is only in the minds of lobbiests, Courts, and City folk who consider themselves "ultra metropolitan". Besides traveling the world, I have had the privilige of working in the Biggest Cities in the world, and living in the sparsest part of the countryside when I go home at night. Every day, I pass from metropolis to City to Town to Village, to the river. And it is definitely not the same morality codes in each section.

For example: I lived in a place called Olongapo City, in the Phillipines for three years...(also known at the time as the adult Disneyland of the world). There were fortune tellers, hawkers and vendors, craftsmen and hookers, barmaids and house girls, even little boys (for those so inclined). Despite the situation, or the purpose of each person, there was something strange and seemingly out of place in the establishments I ventured into...a well thumbed, dog eared Bible, sitting in plain view, with flowers, and coins, pictures, rosaries, or other items of personal importance stuffed between the pages. Despite the "acceptance" of society in their ways of living, there was obviously a living "hope" for something better, some day.

You have to take the media and politician hawking, out of your ears (away from your eyes), and look hard at and listen to the people you pass everyday. What goes on in their homes and in their neighborhoods is not what the media says the world is like...

Moms and Dads hope and pray for a better life for their children. Children pray for help for their mom and dads. Teachers torn between the unions and the kid's innocence pray (hope), for some kind of balance in this tug of war. City fathers (mothers) expect their daughters to be brought home by 10. Farmers daughters will be home by 10...and the boy is expected to be ready to bale hay by 5:00 the next morning...

If you want to look for bad, that is where you will go. If you want to look for good, that is where you will go. If you want to see reality...step back and watch, like "The Fool on the Hill".

 

[Quahom1]

The universe is flying apart. The distance between solar systems and between galaxies continues to increase constantly.

As time increases to infinity, the distance between bodies of matter in space also increases to infinity. In a few million years, the distance between the milky way and other galaxies will be much greater than it is right now.

Actually the puzzling irony is that the celestial bodies are not moving ever distant from each other, they are maintaining a relatively stable distance (really got scientists scratching their heads).

 

[Dondi]

Dondi,

Thank you for your thoughts on this, and for the invite. What I have seen in my life would strip the sunglasses from your eyes. The Bible under scrutiny is only in the minds of lobbiests, Courts, and City folk who consider themselves "ultra metropolitan". Besides traveling the world, I have had the privilige of working in the Biggest Cities in the world, and living in the sparsest part of the countryside when I go home at night. Every day, I pass from metropolis to City to Town to Village, to the river. And it is definitely not the same morality codes in each section.

For example: I lived in a place called Olongapo City, in the Phillipines for three years...(also known at the time as the adult Disneyland of the world). There were fortune tellers, hawkers and vendors, craftsmen and hookers, barmaids and house girls, even little boys (for those so inclined). Despite the situation, or the purpose of each person, there was something strange and seemingly out of place in the establishments I ventured into...a well thumbed, dog eared Bible, sitting in plain view, with flowers, and coins, pictures, rosaries, or other items of personal importance stuffed between the pages. Despite the "acceptance" of society in their ways of living, there was obviously a living "hope" for something better, some day.

You have to take the media and politician hawking, out of your ears (away from your eyes), and look hard at and listen to the people you pass everyday. What goes on in their homes and in their neighborhoods is not what the media says the world is like...

Moms and Dads hope and pray for a better life for their children. Children pray for help for their mom and dads. Teachers torn between the unions and the kid's innocence pray (hope), for some kind of balance in this tug of war. City fathers (mothers) expect their daughters to be brought home by 10. Farmers daughters will be home by 10...and the boy is expected to be ready to bale hay by 5:00 the next morning...

If you want to look for bad, that is where you will go. If you want to look for good, that is where you will go. If you want to see reality...step back and watch, like "The Fool on the Hill".

I've been to P.I. and know of what you speak. I'm married to a lovely Christian Filipina. Met her in one of those souveniur shops that string Magsaysay. She lived on a dollar a day. So I've seen the kind of poverty and hardship endured there. Of course, there are barmaids, hookers, vendors, and beggars. I've seen of the island of Cebu, how young people would come out where our aircraft carrier was anchored in there banca boats and the sailors would pitch coins into the water for the boys to fetch (and they were quite good at it) and try to induce the young girls to flash themselves for a few pesos. That just symbolized for me everything that was going on over in P.I.

For some that's the only way to survive. How tragic that they have to resort to living in the lowest denominator. But then some here in the US live that way also in poverty.

Do you think the hookers, the barmaids, the street vendors, the street boys, the beggars really want to live that way? Of course not, but the government has done little to help while they fill their coffers.

My wife's family are poor fisherman who now are limited in what area they can fish. My brother-in-law had to pay a fine because his banca boat went beyond the designated fishing area. Before, they were free to fish where they wanted, but now the government has made it even harder to make a living. I know of the corruption of local government units there in trying to get local permits to build a house (nothing that a little bribe couldn't cure).

And despite all this, they do have faith in God. They have to. They are needy. Some 95% are Catholic, thanks to the Spanish explorers who brought that faith to the Philippines some four centuries ago. Some are fanatical about it, even to the point of nailing themselves to a cross.

Most Filipinos I've met are good people, very polite and hospitable. The financial and political oppression that drives those into sorted lifestyles doesn't change that. They are hooked. They have little hope in changing there situation.

I've seen it in other countries, too. I met a female kickboxer in Thailand . She had scars and bruises up and down her legs and suffered much pain from her injuries. She was ferocious in the ring, but as kind-hearted as can be. And she would who would go daily to the Buddhist Temple to pray, seeking answers.

People like this have a simple faith. They can afford to scrutinize the bible, or any other scriptures, nor would they want too, nor do they have time too, for they live in quiet desperation. They rely on their beliefs to carry them into the next hard day.

And I think that is one thing the people of the First World has lost sight of. We are so comfortable in our situation, that we lack that reliance on God. We have gotten complacent and slacked in our morals, for of course we know better than God.

 

[Quahom1]

And I think that is one thing the people of the First World has lost sight of. We are so comfortable in our situation, that we lack that reliance on God. We have gotten complacent and slacked in our morals, for of course we know better than God.

Magsaysay Drive...Subic Bay, The Basswood bar, and CalJams, indeed. But I think we have side stepped the path of the original point of this thread...perhaps another thread to continue this train of thought?...

 

[Dondi]

Magsaysay Drive...Subic Bay, The Basswood bar, and CalJams, indeed. But I think we have side stepped the path of the original point of this thread...perhaps another thread to continue this train of thought?...

No. I don't think it's necessary to start another thread. I think we are talking bout relativism here, if what you mean is that degraded morality in third world countries is a necessary evil. But to swing back on topic....since homosexual acts, as well as those other 'necessary" evils, are condemned in the Bible, then what is needed is a viable alternative, namely an understanding of how these things affect our relationship with God. For if the matter is purely to cease from homosexual acts, you've only given half of what God wants for man. For the Law shows the nature of God, which is initially against our nature until we learn to walk in the Spirit and in Love.

As for those "necessary" evils in P.I., it is a matter of extreme trust that God will provide another means of living that will sate both body and soul. and that is difficult to do sometimes.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Q,

Re: What you are describing is a demand for equal rights based on lust, but no responsibility for others or community, or the social fabric. Again, it has nothing to do with gender. That is why we don't give marital status rights to anyone not married, let alone two of the same gender.

Right back to the bible...it destroys the fabric of the society.

So what do we do with these gay people? If we allow that they don't choose their orientation, but continue to marginalize them anyway, then there is never any way to include them fully in the church body. What's the solution?

I'm personally tired of listening to them whine, and I would like it very much if we could somehow equalize their situation so that the problem goes away and I don't feel compelled to get up and defend their cause just for the principle of the thing.

Chris

 

[kenod]

Here are two different approaches to homosexuality that operate in my home city, aimed primarily at Catholics. The first is offically sanctioned, while the second is unofficially tolerated.

I don't think either achieve what I see as the ideal solution, but at least I give credit to people who are trying to help.

COURAGE
Courage is a movement begun in New York in 1980 by a group of same sex attracted Catholics who had decided to commit themselves to a life of chastity.

The five goals of Courage:-

1.To live chaste lives in accordance with the Roman Catholic Church’s teachings on homosexuality.

2.To dedicate our entire lives to Christ through service to others, spiritual reading, prayer, meditation, individual spiritual direction, frequent attendance at Mass and the frequent reception of the sacraments of Penance and of the holy Eucharist.

3.To foster a spirit of fellowship in which we may share with one another our thoughts and experiences and so ensure that none of us will have to face the problems of homosexuality alone.

4.To be mindful of the truth that chaste friendships are not only possible but necessary in a celibate Christian life and to encourage one another in forming and sustaining them.

5.To live lives that may serve as good examples to others.
http://www.bne.catholic.net.au/courage/



ACCEPTANCE
Acceptance provides a safe, spiritual and social environment for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender Catholics, their family and friends.

We believe that:

Homosexual people are created by God, in God's own image.

It is OK to be Gay and Catholic.

We are born homosexual. We are proud to be homosexual.

Many of us were born into a Catholic family and were brought up in a Catholic environment. Others have made the choice to become Catholic. Either way, we are proud to be Catholic too!

In a time when many homosexual and heterosexual Catholics are turning away from the Church, through Acceptance, one can celebrate their faith and sexuality.

The Catholic Church overflows with goodness, people striving for justice, working for peace and following Jesus' commandment of loving God and loving ones neighbour. Sadly, certain teachings and statements continue to alienate some of God’s people from feeling that they can fully belong to the Church they love.
http://www.gaycatholic.com.au/

 

[kenod]

This approach reflects more closely what I personally feel is most effective.

Exodus Global Alliance

Proclaiming that change is possible for the homosexual through the transforming power of Jesus Christ.

Equipping Christians and churches to uphold the Biblical view of sexuality but respond with compassion and grace to those affected by homosexuality.

Serving people affected by homosexuality through counselling, support groups and other services.

http://www.exodusglobalalliance.org/

 

[iBrian]

I seem to remember something that sounds like the third - basically, a program to encourage homosexuals to think that they are not homosexual.

Which if homosexuality were accepted as a genetic disposition (certainly for a significant number of people) then this would make as much sense as trying to concel men that they are in fact women, and that naked thigh doesn't mean anything.

I guess that's somewhat off the the point, though.

 

[wil]

I met some fellow at a barbeque once. His claim to fame was converting gays back to straight. He was a psychologist I believe, from a local bible church, his book was popular and he was on the talk show circuit promoting.

When I asked him about the percentages...what percentage could he convert, and what percentage reverted after his Christian therapy was completed...I couldn't get a straight answer....just anecdotes about the wonderful work...

I guess I have issues, as I am much more comfortable with the homosexual folks I know than I was with him.

 

[Curios Mike]

Wasnt homosexuality considered a phsycoligical disoder by Phsycologyst once? (I know it doesnt matter what they say as far as this topic goes, but just curios)

As far as natural.... What is the purpose of sex? I know its plessurable, but whats it for?
As far as Biblical if you take the Bible as the word of God, and The ruler of your life and values, then no homosexuality is not ligit.

As far as homosexuality being around forever... Well so has prostitution, murder, theft, fornications, adulteries, or any other thing that someone somewhere or another might think is not moral... doesnt make it ok.

But on the other Hand I dont think we should hate the person or persons. Goto go I might add more later.

 

[Quahom1]

Q,

Re: What you are describing is a demand for equal rights based on lust, but no responsibility for others or community, or the social fabric. Again, it has nothing to do with gender. That is why we don't give marital status rights to anyone not married, let alone two of the same gender.

Right back to the bible...it destroys the fabric of the society.

So what do we do with these gay people? If we allow that they don't choose their orientation, but continue to marginalize them anyway, then there is never any way to include them fully in the church body. What's the solution?

I'm personally tired of listening to them whine, and I would like it very much if we could somehow equalize their situation so that the problem goes away and I don't feel compelled to get up and defend their cause just for the principle of the thing.

Chris

Hi Chris,

Again, I suggest we look at what the Bible says, and simply stick to our scripture on the issue of sex (any sex) outside the bonds of marriage (between man and woman). That, takes the Homosexual isolation issue right off the page, and groups all people who want to have sex because they want to, despite what the Bible states, as being at odds with scripture and therefore unacceptable to the Church.

They may have the legal right to engage in sexual relations, but the church does not have to accept the deliberate violation of the moral laws it has set down (or had set down for it by "God").

Look the "whining" isn't about not being accepted as people, but rather about not being accepted for a specific behavior that violates biblical law.

"You don't approve of me because I'm Gay". Wrong. We don't approve of the actions being committed (sex outside of a sanctioned marriage), and we don't have to accept that kind of behavior, not in our congregation, plain and simple.

So, to answer your question, I would say, these are the facts, these are the moral laws we intend to uphold, if anyone refuses to honor these tennants, they can't be included within the congregation, as a member.

When the "disgruntled party" threatens to take it to the public for a vote (legal wise), then we say, ok, and we will be part of the citizenry that casts votes...when they say, they'll take it to the courts, then we again say, ok, we'll be part of the citizenry that votes for the judges who will decide such issues.

What ticks me off, and I suspect you as well, is the constant battle of wills, between a minority of people and a majority of people.

As for me, I'd much rather adhere to God's law, and be told one day that I was wrong, than go with man's law, and be told one day that I was wrong...

Afterall, if sex isn't such a big issue, then why are specifically told 6. "Neither shall you commit adultery ?" And fornication is an abasement? And why did Jesus warn us that if we even think about lusting after another, we have comitted the same as is we acted on that lust?

Those are some pretty specific references biblically that leave no room for wiggling.

my thoughts

v/r

Q

 

[jiii]

Physically speaking the purpose of a male and female union is to pro-create, and propegate the species. Again, physically speaking there is no benefit to the survival of a species by mating two of the same sex together.

By those standards, then, is oral sex considered to be unnatural, too? Such acts do not contribute to procreation. Is there no benefit to physical pleasure? Furthermore, the use of birth control to prevent pregnancy would also be considered unnatural in the same respect.

The idea that the only purpose sex serves is procreation is a grossly utilitarian view of the human body. It's like saying that the purpose of a fine painting is wall decoration.

-jiii

 

[flowperson]

Hi jiii:

I agree...Paul Gauguin sure wouldn't have agreed with strict adherence to biblical admonitions. His Adam and Eve paintings of the garden of eden set in S. Pacific locales were so beautiful and informative. It is clear to me that he was emphasizing not the physical aspects of sexuality, but the emotional and spiritual joys of it.

Such biblical information and admonishments have always been used by some literalists to take the simple joys out of life...but nothing new in that eh? I prefer the real thing...but in lieu of that...great art is also joyful and great, because it emphasizes the spiritual aspects of life and not just the physical. I can speak from first hand experience that loving and interacting with another person, regardless of gender, is meant to be joyful and spiritual, not just physical. But then some people might only be able to think in objective ways about it all.

flow....

 

[kenod]

I seem to remember something that sounds like the third - basically, a program to encourage homosexuals to think that they are not homosexual.

Which if homosexuality were accepted as a genetic disposition (certainly for a significant number of people) then this would make as much sense as trying to concel men that they are in fact women

Not all homosexual behaviour is a result of genetic predisposition - consider twin studies, bisexuality, and conversions. Emotional deprivation, and social learning are also involved in many cases. And anyway, predisposition is just that, a predisposition, it is not determinate. Psycho-social factors, to a greater or lesser extent, will always be a part of the equation.

As has been pointed out, there is also a predisposition to violence, and other maladaptive behaviours. Therefore, predisposition of itself is not a justification for all behaviour.

With regard to treatment programs, what we are talking about is not homosexuals per se, it is only those who have a conflict between their sexuality and their spirituality. For some, they may feel that is imposed on them by the doctrine of their church, but for many others it is an internal struggle derived from their own personal understanding of the Scriptures. For such individuals, support groups can be effective in changing their behaviour patterns.