Jesus vs Everyone else

[Terrence]

Thats it? Ego I-me? Haya Haya? Same same the one and only God(swt)?

Thats Ego Emi. Not, Ego I-me.

The English word 'deity' is in the KJV zero times.

Good observation. Just like the words, "rapture" "bible" "demon" "trinity" and some others. These are all theological words to describe what is taught in the Bible.

So what is a deity? Who wrote the concept of deity? Are you calling every soul a deity?

Irrevalent, especially considering my last answer.


'I am' is in the KJV 699 times. Is every 'I am' referring to God (swt)? Tell me again, who is picking from a verse or two out of context to support a theory? Are you aware of the possible combinations?

I am not aware of how many times "I am" is used in the Bible. However, I do know that the I am statement is used to describe God many times in the KJV. Many times throughout the book of John the JKV has italics. For instance, when Jesus says, "I am [he]" and the soliders fall down, it is a reference to Jesus being God. In the greek septuagint (where we get out KJV) the italics arent there. So, Jesus' words in its orignal language reads as thus: "Unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins." I qoute that verse for you, because if you do not believe that Jesus is God, you will die in your sins. Please make sure your soterlogy is right and that you have the right Jesus. A false Jesus will result in no salvation at all.

John 17:14,16 (Jesus praying to God) They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Jesus prayed to God many times. Your point? Are you a Muslim? Remember friend, Jesus is NOT the Father, nor is He the Holy Spirit. However, like Past not being present or future, but is still nonetheless TIME, Jesus is STILL God. God is a Truine God. ONE being with 3 seperate beings: Father, Son, Spirit.

So what date do you think I am? Birth?The memory in a high chair when my eyes were first opened? After Abraham (pbuh) but before today? Are you advising modern Jews to pick up stones every time someone says I am? Perhaps there is something to learn from 'I am'. Is anyone not able to say this, "I choose therefore I am"?

 

[Terrence]

I certainly believe that Jesus Christ is God. However, I too have a problem with the words "eternal son". I think that the Scriptures which indicate the pre-existence of Jesus are more easily explained as being references to His being God Himself (Jehovah - I Am - Father), rather than the "begotten Son".

You know what? The Trinity is a mystery that I dont think any of us can understand fully on this side of Eternity. The scriptures clearly state that God is ONE, yet has three seperate persons coequal, coeternal, and one in essence. Seems paradoxal, but its true. It leaves us in a state of worship. I dont know about you, but I wouldnt want a god that I could figure out easliy, like the Mormon god or JW god or any other false god. I like that the true God is mysterious and BIG and amazing and Savior and Mighty and Awe-inspring, and a bunch of other stuff.

 

[mee]

You know what? The Trinity is a mystery that I dont think any of us can understand fully on this side of Eternity. The scriptures clearly state that God is ONE, yet has three seperate persons coequal, coeternal, and one in essence. Seems paradoxal, but its true. It leaves us in a state of worship. I dont know about you, but I wouldnt want a god that I could figure out easliy, like the Mormon god or JW god or any other false god. I like that the true God is mysterious and BIG and amazing and Savior and Mighty and Awe-inspring, and a bunch of other stuff.

yes God is one , he is the most high psalm 83;18 and the way to everlasting life is to take in knowledge about this most high God and his son Jesus christ.
This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. John 17;3 taking in knowledge about something means that it is nolonger a mystery
(1 John 5:20) But we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us intellectual capacity that we may gain the knowledge of the true one. And we are in union with the true one, by means of his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and life everlasting.

 

[Student1975]

Are you saying that Jesus was only a symblosim of God in the flesh? If so, where do you get that information? Also, there are many words that arent in the Bible that we use in thelogy, e.g., demon, trinity, rapture, bible, etc. Just because "eternal son" isnt a word in the Bible, doesnt mean that the Bible doesnt teach that Jesus isnt the Eternal Son of God and is God. Lastly, you mentioned that Author Pink believes that Jesus isnt litterally believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Where do you get that information?

Maybe it's my English, I can see the message did not come across. Jesus is the Word or Wisdom of God in flesh in a symbolic sense. In a literal sense the man Jesus Christ is the Son of God. The authors I mentioned are more or less prominent examples of Trinitarians rejecting the eternal generation doctrine. It's not a rejecting of Jesus being a person in the Godhead, but it's a rejection of Jesus being the Son of God in any other sense but as a human being. Pink:

""Unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten Thee" (verse 5)? This latter expression has occasioned not a little difficulty to some of the commentators, and, in the past, has been made the battleground of fierce theological fights. The issue raised was "the eternal Son-ship of Christ." Those affirming understood "this day (or "today") the Greek is the same as in Luke 23:43—to be timeless, and "this day have I begotten Thee" to refer to the eternal generation of the Son by the Father. Much of the fighting was merely a strife "about words," which was to no profit. Though Scripture clearly teaches the Godhead and absolute Deity of the Son (Hebrews 1:8, etc.) and affirms His eternality (John 1:1, etc.), it nowhere speaks of His eternal "son-ship," and where Scripture is silent it behooves us to be silent too. Certainly this verse does not teach the eternal son-ship of Christ, for if we allow the apostle to define his own terms, we read in Hebrews 4:7, "He limiteth a certain day, saying in David, Today," etc. This, it appears to us, illustrates the Spirit’s foresight in thus preventing "today" in Hebrews 1:5 being understood as a timeless, limitless "day"—eternity."

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Hebrews/hebrews_004.htm

 

[Student1975]

Coffman:

""This day have I begotten thee" is a statement upon which such things as the so-called "eternal Sonship" and other implications are said to rest. Although widely received, the doctrine of the eternal Sonship of Christ is not supported by this epistle, nor by anything else in the scripture. In truth, the scriptures deny such a teaching. By prophecy, Isaiah called Christ "everlasting Father" (Isaiah 9:6), a patent contradiction of the notion that he was eternally a son. Christ is called God no less than ten times in the Greek New Testament; and the mind cannot accept an idea of true deity that is tainted with any possible kind of inferiority. (See under Hebrews 1:8.) This expositor agrees with the words of John Wesley, as quoted by Adam Clarke:

In 1781 he (John Wesley) published in the fourth volume of the Arminian Magazine, p, 384, an article entitled "An Arian Antidote"; in this are the following words: "greater or lesser in infinity, is not; inferior Godhead shocks our sense; Jesus was inferior to the Father as touching his manhood (John 14:28); he was a son given and slain intentionally from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8), and the firstborn from the dead of every creature (Colossians 1:15-18). But our Redeemer from everlasting (Isaiah 63:16) had not the inferior name of Son." F13​

To what, then, do the words "This day have I begotten thee" apply? An apostle has given the sure and certain answers; for, in the synagogue at Antioch, Paul said, "God hath raised up Jesus; as also it is written in the second Psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee" (Acts 13:33). Thus, the begetting mentioned in this place is the resurrection of Christ. It was the resurrection that established all that Christ said and did, confirming the virgin birth, the incarnation, the miracles, the prophecies, everything. Christ, therefore, in his risen human nature and united with Godhead, also glorified with the title of Son, in such a supremely exalted state, was and is far above all angels. "

http://studylight.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=heb&chapter=001

 

[Saltmeister]

When Jesus was alive he said God was a spirit. (John) A spirit is not seen. Jesus was clothed in flesh and clearly seen. I'm sorry folks, but for the love of Jesus (pbuh) and of God (swt)... Jesus was NOT God.

Perhaps there is the answer... other religious figures don't have people claiming that they were God (swt).

But . . . consider this.

In John 14:18-19, Jesus said that in a little while he'd be leaving his disciples, but that he'd come back to them later on. But when he came back, nobody else would be able to see him except his disciples.

Why so?

Jesus, their spiritual leader, became invisible. This is the "legend" of Christianity, that our spiritual leader became invisible and now lives in our hearts. Those who believe in him and have the Spirit in them can see Christ.

But how can we see Christ? I can't see my mother, brother and my friends when they die. I will never see them again in this lifetime. So what makes Jesus so special that I can "see" him? I am not saying visually or physically, but spiritually.

In John 14:1 Jesus says, "Believe in God and believe also in me." Why does Jesus say "believe also in me?"

I think what made Jesus special was how he demonstrated what God was like, so Jesus was like a concept of God in himself. So when Jesus said, "believe in me," he was in effect saying, "believe that your concept of Me is also a concept of God."

Does that make Jesus God? Some may say yes, others may so no, but I think the fundamental message is that he was a concept, metaphor, symbol and paradigm for God. God's identity was found through him, and people could therefore get to know God through him.

Jesus, the spiritual leader (the Son) becoming invisible was a way of leading us to an invisible God (the Father). When he became invisible, and lived in our hearts, it was no longer a human being, but the Spirit itself living in our hearts. By getting us to believe in an invisible but personable spiritual leader, it leads to us properly conceptualising an invisible but personable God. Rather than approaching God through a system of rules, a philosophy or ideology, we believe in something personal.

What we are contemplating is the purpose of the New Testament. Many people point out verses that say Jesus was not God, but the verses that say that he was a "way of conceptualising God" are overlooked. So while people may ignore verses that imply he was not God, the same people may also ignore verses that imply that he was a concept of God. What I am getting at here is that if we insist on people paying attention to verses that imply he wasn't God, we should also insist on people looking at verses that suggest that he "was" God. So let's look at both sides and not ignore the other.

We should to be consistent in what we say. Otherwise it isn't an objective analysis of the literature.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

It was the resurrection that established all that Christ said and did, confirming the virgin birth, the incarnation, the miracles, the prophecies, everything. Christ, therefore, in his risen human nature and united with Godhead, also glorified with the title of Son, in such a supremely exalted state, was and is far above all angels. "

i agree. the interesting thing is before christ was born, prophets were already shown the coming messiah, and even the glorified christ, or the lord (father) speaking to the lord (son). when jesus created all things, dont you think he already knew the beginning and the end of all things? i do.

 

[Quahom1]

i agree. the interesting thing is before christ was born, prophets were already shown the coming messiah, and even the glorified christ, or the lord (father) speaking to the lord (son). when jesus created all things, dont you think he already knew the beginning and the end of all things? i do.

He does state He is the Alpha and the Omega.

 

[Terrence]

Maybe it's my English, I can see the message did not come across. Jesus is the Word or Wisdom of God in flesh in a symbolic sense. In a literal sense the man Jesus Christ is the Son of God. The authors I mentioned are more or less prominent examples of Trinitarians rejecting the eternal generation doctrine. It's not a rejecting of Jesus being a person in the Godhead, but it's a rejection of Jesus being the Son of God in any other sense but as a human being. Pink:

""Unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten Thee" (verse 5)? This latter expression has occasioned not a little difficulty to some of the commentators, and, in the past, has been made the battleground of fierce theological fights. The issue raised was "the eternal Son-ship of Christ." Those affirming understood "this day (or "today") the Greek is the same as in Luke 23:43—to be timeless, and "this day have I begotten Thee" to refer to the eternal generation of the Son by the Father. Much of the fighting was merely a strife "about words," which was to no profit. Though Scripture clearly teaches the Godhead and absolute Deity of the Son (Hebrews 1:8, etc.) and affirms His eternality (John 1:1, etc.), it nowhere speaks of His eternal "son-ship," and where Scripture is silent it behooves us to be silent too. Certainly this verse does not teach the eternal son-ship of Christ, for if we allow the apostle to define his own terms, we read in Hebrews 4:7, "He limiteth a certain day, saying in David, Today," etc. This, it appears to us, illustrates the Spirit’s foresight in thus preventing "today" in Hebrews 1:5 being understood as a timeless, limitless "day"—eternity."

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Hebrews/hebrews_004.htm

Oh, sorry bro. I did misunderstand you. Pink is a great thelogian and I thought you were qouting him wrong.

 

[Terrence]

yes God is one , he is the most high psalm 83;18 and the way to everlasting life is to take in knowledge about this most high God and his son Jesus christ.
This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. John 17;3 taking in knowledge about something means that it is nolonger a mystery
(1 John 5:20) But we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us intellectual capacity that we may gain the knowledge of the true one. And we are in union with the true one, by means of his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and life everlasting.

Mee, if you could take of your JW glasses and look at the scriptures without your presuppossitions, Im sure you will see that Jesus is God. Its so obvious. You dont have to believe the bible, but you cant deny that the teaching is there.

 

[cyberpi]

So, Jesus' words in its orignal language reads as thus: "Unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins." I qoute that verse for you, because if you do not believe that Jesus is God, you will die in your sins. Please make sure your soterlogy is right and that you have the right Jesus. A false Jesus will result in no salvation at all.

John 7:16-18 Jesus answered them, and said, "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do HIS WILL, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him."

John 8:54 Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, "If God were your Father, you would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."

John 8:28 Then said Jesus to them, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then shall you know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

My words: Those who claim Jesus (pbuh) is God (swt) are corrupting the scripture in the worst possible way. In the Gospel according to John, Jesus (pbuh) reveals a LAW, that a person who glorifies themselves is NOT glorified. Think about that folks. Apply it to people in history. Make sense? Jesus (pbuh) said that he was NOT glorifying himself. Are you to believe otherwise? It says that the Father is God (swt). Are you to believe otherwise? It says that Jesus (pbuh) was sent by the Father. Are you to believe otherwise?

For those who resort to claiming a Trinity Godhead, a doctrine not stated in the bible... do you also defend the Satan Clause, reindeer, wearwolves, vampires, dragons, voodoo dolls, frankenstein, merlin, apollo, zeus, harry potter, scooby-doo, superman, or any other alledged character and doctrine? Do you simply teach your children that Santa Claus rewards good kids, along with the Trinity, because that is what your parents taught you? Is that the reason you also think that you believe in Jesus (pbuh)? By having no soul? Anyone see a problem there? Hey... my children believed in Santa Claus, so do not think I am an outsider chastising alledged Christian beliefs, or an alledged Christian chastising every belief that is not in the bible. I have blindly taken part in passing on parent fed or society fed beliefs.

John 3:19 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

My words: Ignorance is bliss, but there is the condemnation isn't it. I think that to believe in Jesus (pbuh) is to do as he taught... see the wisdom in his words by seeing the wisdom in his words.

Jesus is NOT the Father, nor is He the Holy Spirit. However, like Past not being present or future, but is still nonetheless TIME, Jesus is STILL God. God is a Truine God. ONE being with 3 seperate beings: Father, Son, Spirit.

I've heard the doctrine before, thanks. Will you be claiming a Quaternary g0d when another like Jesus (pbuh) is sent?

Thats Ego Emi. Not, Ego I-me.

Greek: eimi, pronounced: i-mee.

 

[Terrence]

John 7:16-18 Jesus answered them, and said, "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do HIS WILL, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him."

John 8:54 Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, "If God were your Father, you would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."

John 8:28 Then said Jesus to them, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then shall you know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

My words: Those who claim Jesus (pbuh) is God (swt) are corrupting the scripture in the worst possible way. In the Gospel according to John, Jesus (pbuh) reveals a LAW, that a person who glorifies themselves is NOT glorified. Think about that folks. Apply it to people in history. Make sense? Jesus (pbuh) said that he was NOT glorifying himself. Are you to believe otherwise? It says that the Father is God (swt). Are you to believe otherwise? It says that Jesus (pbuh) was sent by the Father. Are you to believe otherwise?

For those who resort to claiming a Trinity Godhead, a doctrine not stated in the bible... do you also defend the Satan Clause, reindeer, wearwolves, vampires, dragons, voodoo dolls, frankenstein, merlin, apollo, zeus, harry potter, scooby-doo, superman, or any other alledged character and doctrine? Do you simply teach your children that Santa Claus rewards good kids, along with the Trinity, because that is what your parents taught you? Is that the reason you also think that you believe in Jesus (pbuh)? By having no soul? Anyone see a problem there? Hey... my children believed in Santa Claus, so do not think I am an outsider chastising alledged Christian beliefs, or an alledged Christian chastising every belief that is not in the bible. I have blindly taken part in passing on parent fed or society fed beliefs.

John 3:19 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

My words: Ignorance is bliss, but there is the condemnation isn't it. I think that to believe in Jesus (pbuh) is to do as he taught... see the wisdom in his words by seeing the wisdom in his words.


I've heard the doctrine before, thanks. Will you be claiming a Quaternary g0d when another like Jesus (pbuh) is sent?


Greek: eimi, pronounced: i-mee.

So you're muslim? OK, I'll answer this stuff later in another thread. For now, I'd like to speak with the JWs of this website.

 

[Student1975]

A careful Bible study shows that Jesus is God. God's Incarnation is not explicitely spelled out in the Bible (apart from Philippians 2:5-11), but the person of Jesus is identified sometimes as true God and as sometimes as true man&servant of God in the Bible. God descided to become his own suffering servant to redeem man. That's a mystery and a paradox but careful Biblestudy ties the whole picture together.

I would like to ask if you are a Muslim and if you are, why you are trying to tell us what our holy book teaches?

 

[Terrence]

A careful Bible study shows that Jesus is God. God's Incarnation is not explicitely spelled out in the Bible (apart from Philippians 2:5-11), but the person of Jesus is identified sometimes as true God and as sometimes as true man&servant of God in the Bible. God descided to become his own suffering servant to redeem man. That's a mystery and a paradox but careful Biblestudy ties the whole picture together.

I would like to ask if you are a Muslim and if you are, why you are trying to tell us what our holy book teaches?

No doubt! The bible clearly protrays Jesus as God. Recall C.S. Lewis' "liar, lunatic, or Lord" speach...Jesus claimed to be Lord and God and scriptures testify to it - clearly!

 

[cyberpi]

Jesus, their spiritual leader, became invisible. This is the "legend" of Christianity,

Legend? You understand the principle of determinism, right? You reject it, right? The body is a machine and it is deterministic.

But how can we see Christ? I can't see my mother, brother and my friends when they die. I will never see them again in this lifetime. So what makes Jesus so special that I can "see" him? I am not saying visually or physically, but spiritually.

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

In John 14:1 Jesus says, "Believe in God and believe also in me." Why does Jesus say "believe also in me?"

I think it means the words that immediately followed were his: "Many mansions... I go to prepare a place for you."

 

[Faithfulservant]

What people need to understand is that Jesus is fully man AND fully God.. while He was on earth He submitted to God as the Man part of Him as being unworthy...He also spoke of God as being Father... Thats all He referred to Him as.. Father.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

I've heard the doctrine before, thanks. Will you be claiming a Quaternary g0d when another like Jesus (pbuh) is sent?

jesus christ has fulfilled all things, and the father has glorified the son above all things and given authority to him as it is written by the prophets, and that which has taken place and written by the apostles. god is the father, the son, and the holy spirit.

 

[Saltmeister]

Legend? You understand the principle of determinism, right? You reject it, right? The body is a machine and it is deterministic.

I have doubts that the totality and entirety of human existence is quantified in our bodies. I reckon our real decisions are made somewhere else, that they're driven by some kind of "soul."

I don't reject the concept of determinism. That wasn't my point when I was discussing determinism before on the other threads. Even if both our bodies and souls were deterministic state machines, that doesn't mean that the meaning of life and human sentimental values should be measured on how these machines worked. Our personal dignity is measured by our feelings, emotions and relationships.

I accept determinism as the way in which the universe functions, but reject it as a way of rationalising human life, human relations and human existence. It would be dehumanising to explain everything in life through determinism, and get people to follow a philosophy that defined human values based on that determinism. For example, consider abortion and stem cell research. Do you think we should have laws against that stuff or do you think it dehumanises human existence? (rhetorical question, not for you to answer) Do you think science can over-rationalise the way we live?

I'm a bit puzzled as to why you're bringing this stuff up now . . . what's this got to do with what we believe Jesus means to us? Was the resurrection a defiance of the laws of physics? Was Jesus being taken up into heaven also a defiance of the laws of matter? Were the miracles physically impossible? They must have been if they were miracles!!! Did Jesus defy determinism?

My question: what was your point in bringing up determinism?

Legend? It's a belief in something that happened in the past but may, actually have a legacy that influences the present.

Christ lived in the past, but is considered to have a legacy. When people die, they are completely cut off from this reality and plane of existence. Christianity has it that Jesus is able to be present spiritually in this world for those who believe that he can lead them to God, rather than being "cut off" from us. His legacy was a relationship with God, established through him.

I think it means the words that immediately followed were his: "Many mansions... I go to prepare a place for you."

We're spiritual descendents of Christ. The mansions are our inheritance. Descendents inherit property from their ancestors. So it is with Christ. Christ is our heritage. If we believe that he's who he said he was, we become his "spiritual descendents." It's just a question of what we're supposed to believe about him.

So what did he mean by "believe in me"?

 

[FLOWERGIRL]

yes God is one , he is the most high psalm 83;18 and the way to everlasting life is to take in knowledge about this most high God and his son Jesus christ.
This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. John 17;3 taking in knowledge about something means that it is nolonger a mystery
(1 John 5:20) But we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us intellectual capacity that we may gain the knowledge of the true one. And we are in union with the true one, by means of his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and life everlasting.

Actually knowing Jesus means everlasting life rather than just taking in knowledge of Him. Do you not agree?

Mee, may I ask you if you believe you have a personal relationship with Christ?

 

[InLove]

Hi Everyone--

I was just wondering what Jesus might say about the idea of "Jesus vs Everyone else". Just a thought.

InPeace,
InLove