Do you call yourself a Christian?

cyberpi said:
Whose judgement do you think counts? I think to be a follower of Christ requires accepting other people's judgement and opinions. That does not mean that my own opinion and judgement can't be different... but I have to listen to, consider, accept, and even follow other people's judgement and opinions now and then. I think Jesus called that Faith.

I don't know what salvation means to people, but at the separation of goats and lambs, I see that it involves relationships with people... like the least of people.
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I was saying that although I am open to having dialogue with other people, and am very interested in what they have to say, others' judgements of my status (in terms of salvation) are irrelevant.

I do consider others' opinions, and I readily accept that anyone can have any opinion they choose. That's why I don't try to convince people I should be labeled Christian anymore. If they want to label me Y instead, that is their perogative. I do not think we are called, as Christians, to follow other people's judgements or opinions, unless the Spirit allows us to discern that it would be to our spiritual benefit. I follow Christ, not people. Now sometimes following Christ means that I am in alignment with other people, and following Christ always means that I must love other people (and extend God's grace and love to them). But loving and serving others (what we do with the least of these) is not the same as following their opinions. I love and serve people all the time who I do not agree with or follow. Indeed, I daresay there is a lot about modern US culture that most Christians feel we should *not* follow.

My point originally was that, on my deathbed, no one else's judgements or opinions of me matter.

In the end, only the One (God) determines my salvation.
 
Quahom1 said:
We do not accept others' opinions, or judgemets...
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Hello Quahom1... welcome to the displaced Liberal forum 2 doors to the Left. I found the person in the bible that refers to himself as 'WE' was Legion. Is there a Legion or someone else that you are speaking for?
 
path_of_one said:
I was saying that although I am open to having dialogue with other people, and am very interested in what they have to say, others' judgements of my status (in terms of salvation) are irrelevant.

I do consider others' opinions, and I readily accept that anyone can have any opinion they choose. That's why I don't try to convince people I should be labeled Christian anymore. If they want to label me Y instead, that is their perogative. I do not think we are called, as Christians, to follow other people's judgements or opinions, unless the Spirit allows us to discern that it would be to our spiritual benefit. I follow Christ, not people. Now sometimes following Christ means that I am in alignment with other people, and following Christ always means that I must love other people (and extend God's grace and love to them). But loving and serving others (what we do with the least of these) is not the same as following their opinions. I love and serve people all the time who I do not agree with or follow. Indeed, I daresay there is a lot about modern US culture that most Christians feel we should *not* follow.

My point originally was that, on my deathbed, no one else's judgements or opinions of me matter.

In the end, only the One (God) determines my salvation.
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For judgement of salvation, certainly I agree that being a disciple or follower of Christ means being a follower of Christ and not necessarily what a specific church or others say.
 
cyberpi said:
Hello Quahom1... welcome to the displaced Liberal forum 2 doors to the Left. I found the person in the bible that refers to himself as 'WE' was Legion. Is there a Legion or someone else that you are speaking for?
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I'm confused. :confused:

I'm fairly certain that Q is speaking for Christians, in general.

I think there are things being lost in cyber-translation here. I know Q pretty well and I think he was just saying what I was saying...

Others' opinions are not what counts in our salvation. Only God's opinion matters in our salvation.

Q can correct me if I'm wrong. Hope that helps clear things up.
 
path_of_one said:
I'm confused. :confused:

I'm fairly certain that Q is speaking for Christians, in general.

I think there are things being lost in cyber-translation here. I know Q pretty well and I think he was just saying what I was saying...

Others' opinions are not what counts in our salvation. Only God's opinion matters in our salvation.

Q can correct me if I'm wrong. Hope that helps clear things up.
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Sorry, I didn't know Q speaks for your beliefs. Is it the path of two?

In terms of salvation, I suggest that it is relevant whether a person accepts anyone else's judgement or opinions... relevant to being a Christian. That was my original point.
 
I didn't say Q spoke for me, I said Q (in saying "we") was referring to a very common belief in various denominations of Christianity, namely, that we are not of this world and are answerable to God, not to man.

I find your belief interesting, as I have not heard it before. Are you saying that a good Christian should accept any opinion or judgement, and what does that mean in practice? What do we do if there are conflicting opinions among people, or if their opinions conflict with our own conscience or the scriptures?

I'd really love to hear more about your viewpoint, as it's something new for me to learn about.:)
 
path_of_one said:
I didn't say Q spoke for me, I said Q (in saying "we") was referring to a very common belief in various denominations of Christianity, namely, that we are not of this world and are answerable to God, not to man.

I find your belief interesting, as I have not heard it before. Are you saying that a good Christian should accept any opinion or judgement, and what does that mean in practice? What do we do if there are conflicting opinions among people, or if their opinions conflict with our own conscience or the scriptures?

I'd really love to hear more about your viewpoint, as it's something new for me to learn about.:)
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I am suggesting that Faith has to be placed in the least of people. That the least of people must not only be able to express their opinions, but that their judgements have real power over law in this world. Both their opinions and judgements have to be listened to and even obeyed to a degree, whether they are right or wrong. Consider when Jesus was on the cross after being judged and ultimately condemned by some people. Was he rejecting their judgement or accepting it? I submit that he accepted it. It is not a matter of whether his opinion and judgement was the same as everyone elses. I submit that his was extremely unique to the world, but look what he did with it. As I read it... it is God's will that Faith be placed in the least of people.

Consider democracy. Should the least of people NOT have an independent opinion and vote over the laws that you must obey? Would you reject the law to reject the opinion and judgement of the least of people, or would you accept their vote? If for example everyone votes that alcohol should be banned again, and you like to drink now and then... will you be rejecting the opinions and judgements of others? If you are at someone's house that has different customs than you, will you be accepting their opinions and judgements, or rejecting them? I am guessing that you actually do accept them. Should you ever find yourself in a court of law in your country, will you be accepting or rejecting the opinions of others?

I am saying that just as you would accept the opinion and judgement of a friend (I'm betting), I think so must a person accept them from the least of people. I consider it placing Faith in a person, whether the person is right or wrong. So when any person says, "We do not accept others' opinions, or judgements..." I frankly can't place the religion. I consider it neither Christianity nor Islam... the two religions I am most familiar with. To place Faith in a person I have to accept their opinion and judgements. I suggest that any other way is oppression. To avoid is apathy.
 
cyberpi said:
Hello Quahom1... welcome to the displaced Liberal forum 2 doors to the Left. I found the person in the bible that refers to himself as 'WE' was Legion. Is there a Legion or someone else that you are speaking for?
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Speak for yourself...lol

io solo is my motto.

plus what you just pulled up is quite dated. Since then I learned from a blue bird, a thing or two about tolerance, but nothing from you. What a shame.

v/r

Joshua
 
I think we're talking past each other cyberpi. I support democracy and am more than fine with the process.

I'm really very liberal politically (much more so than most US Christians).

What I'm talking about in being labeled or not being labeled a Christian isn't about my political views and democracy. This thread is talking about if liberal Christians bother to call themselves Christian, considering that we are often are told by other Christians that we're too liberal to be "real" Christians.

As for following laws, so long as the laws do not go against the scriptures and the guidance I have from the Spirit, yes, I follow them. No problem there. Now when they do go against that guidance, I would practice civil disobedience. If I'd been alive in the 60s, for example, I would have practiced civil disobedience to help change the laws to allow for equal treatment of blacks. Just because people make a law does not mean that it is morally right, and in a democracy, it us up to the citizens (including me) to change laws we feel are wrong. And there have been lots of those in the history of this country that have oppressed minority groups and women.

In general, I think we actually agree with each other, from what I can decipher.
 
Quahom1 said:
... plus what you just pulled up is quite dated. Since then I learned from a blue bird, a thing or two about tolerance...
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Yes what we say today is for today...we must always reserve the right to grow in understanding and on the morrow our words may be different.

ode to Paul, I die daily....
 
path_of_one said:
Now when they do go against that guidance, I would practice civil disobedience. If I'd been alive in the 60s, for example, I would have practiced civil disobedience to help change the laws to allow for equal treatment of blacks. Just because people make a law does not mean that it is morally right, and in a democracy, it us up to the citizens (including me) to change laws we feel are wrong. And there have been lots of those in the history of this country that have oppressed minority groups and women.

In general, I think we actually agree with each other, from what I can decipher.
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Hmmm, I hid under the bed while the bullets flew...

(Detroit - 1968/69).

v/r

Joshua
 
and our family drove by, from Nevada to New York...and as we drove by we watched it (Detroit) burning...as children of parents who were decidedly not racist, there were incredible discussions and a total lack of understanding what was going on....
 
wil said:
Yes what we say today is for today...we must always reserve the right to grow in understanding and on the morrow our words may be different.

ode to Paul, I die daily....
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I'm not dead yet. Nor is my resolve. I simply choose which fight I'm a gonna fight.

It has to be worth it to me, now.

v/r

Joshua
 
wil said:
In my exploration it is true that I have an interest, an affinity, an acceptance of religions other than Chrisitanity. And I don't believe that Hindu's and Bhuddists and Athiests are going to Hell. And I don't believe in a new and improved version of Zeus.

But I do call myself a Christian.

As I see Jesus's teachings and his life as something to learn from and emulate. Of all the gurus/teachers, he is the one I put on the top of my list.

Now I don't know if he accomplished all the healings, or whether he rose from the dead, or if he even existed. But none of that detracts from my love of the spirit of Jesus, and being able to learn from the stories.

So I call myself a Christian.

Now you may not call me a Christian, but my question is, Do you call yourself a Christian and why?
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Based on all you said, I wouldnt call you a Christian. As for me. Yes, I call myself a Christian. The reason why is because I believe that apart from Jesus, ALL of my good deeds are filty rags before God. Moreover, I see my sins as being exceedingly sinful and understand that in the presence of a Holy God, I would have no place. So needless to say, I trust only in Jesus' righteousness and not in myself. I believe that Jesus lived a perfect life, that I (and all who believes in Him) will have His righteousness imputed to me and credited to my account. Also, I believe that Christ bore my sins in His body and died an atoning death wereby all my sins were paid for in His sacrifice and that He rose again on the 3rd day to justify me (and all those who believes in Him) before God. So in a nutshell, God crushed His Son for all those who would believe. They get His perfect life credited to their account and He gets their punishment that they may be justified before the Holy God of the Universe. Because I believe in the Christ and follow after Him, I am a Chrisitan and a child of God. Oh, just to let you know, the Bible makes it clear that only those washed in the blood of the lamb will go to Heaven. The good athesist who denies the God who gives him breath and life, will go to the same place as any person who isnt born again...not with God.
 
...ya know what? Being a Christian is like being an alcoholic (in a way)...nobody can call you one, but yourself. But everybody can see that you behave like one...
 
I used to call myself a Christian, but you all have convinced me I'm not. See, I thought that because I so admire Jesus' philosophy, and because I'm ethnically Christian I qualified, but now I know better. I thought maybe, in some circuitous fashion I was working my way back around it. Maybe I would find a way for all the other stuff to fit and make sense, but, based on what I've read here I think I need to disabuse myself of that idea. So I've decided not to try anymore. I'll just be what I am.

Chris
 
There seems to be so much pain in those persons who have left the orthodoxy to pursue what they know in their hearts. It would be so easy just to pretend belief in the tenets of Christianity to be a part of Christendom but the cost would be a cognitive dissonance that would eventually unhinge the individual. I know in my own case, that after careful study of scripture, prayer and meditation over the last thirty years I cannot accept mainstream Christian thought, would that I could. The price for this is to be branded a heretic and be excluded from the group. So be it then, because as Path Of One explains there is only one reality to be accountable to, and in our heart of hearts we have opened ourselves completely, asking for a loaf , have we recieved a stone instead? That is what the Orthodoxy would have us believe, but is that true?

Peace

Mark
 
Based on all you said, I wouldnt call you a Christian.

I don't think that was the question. And I can't speak for others, but I could really care less if you call me a Christian. As I said earlier, it's God's opinion that matters.

As for me. Yes, I call myself a Christian. The reason why is because I believe that apart from Jesus, ALL of my good deeds are filty rags before God.

I never really argued with this. I don't dwell on it over and over the way you seem to, but I'm very aware that I'm saved entirely by God's grace, and I'm very grateful.

Moreover, I see my sins as being exceedingly sinful

Well... yeah. Sins are sinful. No qualms there.

and understand that in the presence of a Holy God, I would have no place. So needless to say, I trust only in Jesus' righteousness and not in myself.

I trust in Jesus, who is dwelling in me. So I'm not really trusting me. I'm trusting God's Spirit within me. And yes, I can tell the difference. I often don't feel like doing or thinking what the Spirit tells me to do or think.

I believe that Jesus lived a perfect life, that I (and all who believes in Him) will have His righteousness imputed to me and credited to my account.

I don't disagree with this. Maybe others here do, but I don't. I will say that "belief" in the real meaning of the word (if you look up all that entails in the Greek) is surprisingly broad. Belief is a real commitment and is followed up with action.

Also, I believe that Christ bore my sins in His body and died an atoning death wereby all my sins were paid for in His sacrifice and that He rose again on the 3rd day to justify me (and all those who believes in Him) before God.

Technically, what makes a person a Christian is the belief that Jesus Christ reconciled humanity and God through His sacrifice. (Well, and the subsequent salvation we receive by repenting and relying on Christ and thus taking up our cross to follow Him.)

How He did that is not the main issue, nor is it what makes a person a Christian. What is important is that He did it.

I'm reading "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis right now, and it's really wonderful. I highly recommend it to all if you haven't read it before.

It is really enlightening, and confirming to me that I do fit within the label of Christianity despite my many deviations from some denominations' orthodoxy. It really goes back to the heart of the matter and cuts out all the doctrinal arguing.

Because I believe in the Christ and follow after Him, I am a Chrisitan and a child of God.

Hmmm... I believe in the Christ, in the deepest Greek meaning of the word. I follow after Him. So therefore, I too, am a child of God and a Christian.

The good athesist who denies the God who gives him breath and life, will go to the same place as any person who isnt born again...not with God.

I don't think my salvation and status as a Christian has anything to do with judgements I make about other people's salvation and where they go after death.

Not my business, not my place.

My "job" as a Christian is to follow Christ- to love God with all my heart and to love others as myself. I'm supposed to be a light to this world, to show love to others, and to tell them about Christ and the gift I was given.

The rest is up to God, and I am specifically told by Jesus not to judge others, lest I be judged. I can share Christ with all people, without presuming that they are or are not going to be with God.
 
I'm not a Christian. Christianity makes Jesus' philosophy look like a hoplessly idealistic, egalitarian pipe dream. Given the choice I'll stick with the dream. I'd rather be a permanent outsider. I appreciate, though, the input of the "Christians" here in helping make this clear to me. I am nothing. I'm not Christian or anything else. I'm "them."

Chris
 
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