War and Pieces

[Faithfulservant]

I totally hear you... evolution makes no sense if you consider the conscience.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."
Even our forefathers knew this truth .. I wonder what they would think if they saw what we have done to this country in just 2 hundred years... There are nations of people thousands of years old we are just young enough to be able to look back and see what it was that we did wrong... Think we are too arrogant to admit we were wrong?

 

[cyberpi]

I dunno D, participating on this board is one of the most frustrating experiences I've had in a long time. But then there's something to the idea of tethering yourself to something frustrating because it makes you think and ultimately brings out the best in you. Still, I'm on the verge of walking away. It irks me that Terrence was banished. For one thing, he was a nearly perfect bad example. But mostly it irritates me when all voices can't be heard. I don't want to play it safe. I want to live large. I want to rock and roll with the punches, write on the cutting edge of my consciousness, and be wrong and apologize. I want to learn. I hate that this forum treats us like we're still in grade school. We're adults, we don't need kid gloves. But no, everything is dumbed down to the lowest common denominator in the misguided persuit of avoiding stepping on anyone's precious feelings. What a load of crap.

Chris

Terrence was banished? Why? That irks me too if it is true.

 

[Saltmeister]

I hate that this forum treats us like we're still in grade school. We're adults, we don't need kid gloves. But no, everything is dumbed down to the lowest common denominator in the misguided persuit of avoiding stepping on anyone's precious feelings. What a load of crap.

Chris

Well? Why not? Everything we post here can be seen.

The Internet can be much like a hit-and-run battlefield. Fire and forget. No hard feelings, man. No harm's done when you drop a "few" harsh words and insults. Moreover, who cares when it's on the Internet?

But when it comes to religion, things can get personal. You're not just talking about someone's beliefs and convictions, but also their identity. Their self-image. Their concept of who they are.

It would be like insulting someone by calling their mother, father, brother or sister or friend a @#$%^&*(. Pardon me for the example.

The words you post don't just disappear. Everyone who logs on can read them. The words don't just go away. They have consequences. They may even create enemies . . . You will be remembered, not forgotten.

The next person who reads them make can have a severe emotional reaction. It's not just rashes, itchy heads and headaches. Black eyes may be waiting

 

[Quahom1]

Well? Why not? Everything we post here can be seen.

The Internet can be much like a hit-and-run battlefield. Fire and forget. No hard feelings, man. No harm's done when you drop a "few" harsh words and insults. Moreover, who cares when it's on the Internet?

But when it comes to religion, things can get personal. You're not just talking about someone's beliefs and convictions, but also their identity. Their self-image. Their concept of who they are.

It would be like insulting someone by calling their mother, father, brother or sister or friend a @#$%^&*(. Pardon me for the example.

The words you post don't just disappear. Everyone who logs on can read them. The words don't just go away. They have consequences. They may even create enemies . . . You will be remembered, not forgotten.

The next person who reads them make can have a severe emotional reaction. It's not just rashes, itchy heads and headaches. Black eyes may be waiting

Interesting. Chris takes offense to "dumbing down" the forum, but when it get's hot he's the first to call someone an "idiot", or "that's a keeper", or notify the authorities. But it is ok for people like him to express themselves without predjudous? I suppose Christians are supposed to be lambs before the slaughter...

Not quite. It's called give and take. I'll say again, not all "sheep" are ewes. Some are Rams with horns.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

You sound a little butt-hurt Q!

When did I ever call anyone an idiot? Look, you're a moderator. You should hold yourself to a higher standard. If you don't have the temperment for it, and I often question whether you do, you should resign and re-join the rank and file. I don't have a problem with anyone expressing their point of view, what I do dislike is moderators who, for example, go on a personal rant, and then close the thread when the response gets too hot for their personal likeing. I only ever flagged one post- yours. And I'm not the one who's still digging up graves.

The fact is, you want to be everyone's daddy. You want to be Skipper, and everyone else should be Little Buddy. I ain't your Gilligan.

Chris

 

[Quahom1]

You sound a little butt-hurt Q!

When did I ever call anyone an idiot? Look, you're a moderator. You should hold yourself to a higher standard. If you don't have the temperment for it, and I often question whether you do, you should resign and re-join the rank and file. I don't have a problem with anyone expressing their point of view, what I do dislike is moderators who, for example, go on a personal rant, and then close the thread when the response gets too hot for their personal likeing. I only ever flagged one post- yours. And I'm not the one who's still digging up graves.

The fact is, you want to be everyone's daddy. You want to be Skipper, and everyone else should be Little Buddy. I ain't your Gilligan.

Chris

Nice. And if we ran it your way it would be a free for all. Christianity is not a free for all. And Just because you Chris don't think I have the temerity to be a moderator, doesn't make it so. However, challenging a moderator outright isn't exactly brilliant either. And on the Christian forum, I'm not exactly concerned about your personal feelings on the issue. You seem to like to raise a ruckuss. Moderators then have to tone it down. You don't like authority...but you don't clean up the mess you make either.

You like to leave that up to the moderators.

This it the Christian forum but you like to vasselate (you know this word?). It depends on your mood at the moment you post.

"I'm a Christian...no I am not". Yet here you still are, posting here, raising Cain.

Take a look in your own mirror, instead of trying to show me my reflection...

I'm secure in my faith...how about you?

v/r

Q

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

You're bringing my faith into this, Quahom1? I don't have a faith.

Look, I'll make this easy for you. Starting now I'll never post on your Christianity board again. Now, I'm sure you'll want to have the last word, so go ahead.

Chris

 

[Prober]

I've read this thread a couple of times from first to last. It's fascinating to note its progression.

p.s. Why are things "stickied"?

 

[LeoSalinas22]

greetings, juantoo3!

This I stated about G-d divorcing the Jews is a fairly common teaching in a number of "accepted" denominations, and it is based on a passage in one of the Old Testament prophets. Book, chapter and verse escape me just now. I want to say Isaiah, it could just as easily be Jeremiah or Ezekiel, or one of the other prophets.

i know i may be a little late but were you refering about the whole divorce thing along the lines of this scripture:

Jeremiah 33 And the word of the LORD came unto Jeremiah, saying,
Thus saith the LORD; If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, and that there should not be day and night in their season;Then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers.
it is better of course to read it in context for the rest is pretty confusing. also have you noticed this scripture?
Malachi 2:16 For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.
that was kjv. this is niv:
Malachi 2:16 "I hate divorce," says the Lord God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself with violence as well as with his garment," says the Lord Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.
oh and uh one more thing, the ladies "don juan" anything to do with you.lmfao! i am sorry i just noticed your name "juantoo3". pretty clever.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Leo!

I think I may have found the passage I was looking for:

Jeremiah 3
3:1
They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again ? shall not that land be greatly polluted ? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.
3:2
Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien (8795) with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.
3:3
Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore's * forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.
3:4
Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My father, thou art the guide of my youth?
3:5
Will he reserve his anger for ever? will he keep it to the end? Behold, thou hast spoken and done evil things as thou couldest.
3:6
The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done ? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
3:7
And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
3:8
And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
3:9
And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
3:10
And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.
3:11
And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
3:12
Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.
3:13
Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.
3:14
Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
3:15
And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
3:16
And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
3:17
At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
3:18
In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.
3:19
But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me.
3:20
Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the LORD.
3:21
A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God.
3:22
Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.
3:23
Truly in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills, and from the multitude of mountains: truly in the LORD our God is the salvation of Israel.
3:24
For shame hath devoured the labour of our fathers from our youth; their flocks and their herds, their sons and their daughters.
3:25
We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us: for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God.

Emphasis mine, -jt3

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

In the dark where all the fevers grow
under the water where the shark bubbles blow
in the mornin' by your radio

do the wall close in to suffocate ya'
you ain't got no friends, and all the others they hate ya'
does the life you've been leadin' got to go...hmmm?

Chris

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, China Cat!

I don't know what to make of your post.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Me either, but I figured if this thread was going to be stickied in perpetuity I might as well have some fun with it.

Chris

 

[Vajradhara]

Yep! That and I seldom see anything that interests me.

I'm more into the development (evolution) of morality, like why are we moral? Especially, why are we moral if there is / was no God to begin with? Seems a pretty tall stretch of imagination just to invent "G-d" and convince the rest of the tribe to appease "Him."

Namaste juan,

interesting idea... then again.. who said that anyone needed an invisible giant threating them with doom and destruction if they didn't play right?





metta,

~v

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Vajradhara!

It is wonderful to have your input again! Thank you so much for your consideration!

who said that anyone needed an invisible giant threating them with doom and destruction if they didn't play right?

"Invisible giant"...I think I like this...remove the anthropomorph concepts (the *beard* or *tits* in the sky), and I think you are on to something! "Invisible giant,"...perhaps that is a better way of conveying the essence of what I have in the past called "the G-d Concept."

I have heard it said that Buddhism has little conflict with scientific understandings in general, as we have discussed a number of times in various threads regarding evolution. I am curious about Buddhist interpretations of such scientific findings as the Venus of Willendorf, or the Lowenmensch, or the Ostrich eggshell beads found in South Africa, or the Neandertal bone flute, or the find in Eastern Europe that evidenced compassionate treatment of an elder, or the controversy over the Lake Mungo findings, or the cave paintings at Lascaux, or the "horned one" of the Fumane cave? Seems I see a lot of Buddhist interpretation of "modern" human social interactions and standings, but a great dearth of Buddhist interpretation of findings regarding humanity in antiquity. Is there an alternate interpretation that covers all of the bases (Occam's Razor shouldn't be the first tool raised) that would preclude and dispense with a non-anthropomorphic "invisible giant threatening doom...?" Even in the still lingering mythology of the Wild Man / Green Man, there is an echo of this to which I have repeatedly pointed, and to which a Buddhist voice has yet to account for in my very limited experience here at CR. Your views towards this are appreciated...

 

[flowperson]

There was a multi-volume set of analyses written in the 90's regarding the nature of fundamentalism and how it arose and dominated some of the religions of the world over the centuries and millenia. The author was Martin Marty, former Dean of the Divinity School at The University of Chicago. While I haven't read the volumes, I have read several reviews and heard him lecture on the subject matter over the years.

I thought that this article, along similar lines, might help us to understand the effects that technological innovations, such as happened in the sixteeenth century with the widespread use and availability of inexpensively printed versions of sacred works, may have played a role in the onset of fundamentalist activities in at least Christian denominations at that time. What role does anyone believe televangelists may be playing as we discuss this ?

flow....

http://www.livescience.com/history/071211-fundamental-birth.html

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Flow!

Thanks for this contribution! I apologize for missing this earlier.

I thought that this article, along similar lines, might help us to understand the effects that technological innovations, such as happened in the sixteeenth century with the widespread use and availability of inexpensively printed versions of sacred works, may have played a role in the onset of fundamentalist activities in at least Christian denominations at that time. What role does anyone believe televangelists may be playing as we discuss this ?

I am not familiar with Mr. Marty or his work. It has been quite a while, going back to the mid-80's, when I read such works as Foxe's Book of Martyrs and "The Men Behind the King James Version" by Gustavus Payne (Paine?).

I think you may have struck on an interesting point, the relationship of technology in regards to how religion impacts the masses. I would hesitate to attribute fundamentalism (at least in the negative connotation) to this, there are other mitigating factors as well, not least politics and imposition on personal liberties. The article you cited pointed a very important clue, the laity by and large were illiterate. To add to the difficulty, hand copied books were expensive and reserved to the wealthy and clergy (which can be roughly equated with the power structure). The "ignorant masses" were at the mercy of those who could read, and the religious and political institutions were not above playing their upper hand to keep the masses under control.

Men like Tyndale (certainly there were others during this period of Protestant Reformation) sought to shift the structure of power from the elite to the masses. It doesn't take much to understand how the elite would object, and the masses would approve. It is a long forgotten part of western history, but one it would serve us well to remember, that these works by these men in attempting to bring the Sacred Scriptures to the vernacular language of the masses is the pivotal point where the tide of illiteracy began to turn, and the birth of the modern educational system began in earnest.

No longer were the people chained to the frivolous interpretations (often suited to local agendas), but rather were "free" to interpret the scriptures of their own volition. In other words, peer review from outside the ivory towers now began to serve as a check and balance to the abuse of the power of "knowledge." I can accept the argument that only those who actually made the effort to study the scriptures for themselves and who became influential over various crowds (congregations) in turn began to serve in the same purpose formally held by the priests and the political hierarchy, but at least a sincere challenge was being made to the overt abuse of the privilege long held by authority.

Henry VIII's challenge to the Catholic church, and the resulting clash between Catholics and Protestants in England in the mid-1500's created a political void into which the newly literate, inspired and studied laity stepped, and such groups as the Puritans and the Calvinists came into being.

So the technology of printing did serve a purpose in the Reformation of England, but was not of itself the cause. The zeitgeist was right, political expediency opened the door, and the masses simply flooded in of their own volition. Far more came of this than simply a fractured Christian church, it also paved the way for modern education of the masses and all of the social benefits that eventually came with it.

As for how television will impact on future generations is far too early to be clear. Certainly there must be some impact, look how many of us are "trained" to dutifully sit in front of a picture box to gather our information. Look how many of us take that information and assimilate it without question. Look how we idolize movie stars and athletes. Look at the role television plays in "telling" us how we will elect our leaders. So to limit our consideration of the technology of television (and computers!) to the impact on religion is to narrowly focus and miss so much more of the story. Perhaps a better question is how television impacts on the overall morality, ethics and mores of society. It would probably serve us well to keep in mind that we are accustomed to "freedom of information" and "free enterprise" (disregarding for the moment the conflicts within each) in the west, what about the role television plays in closed societies where dissent is not allowed?

Propaganda is propagnada. In a closed society there is only one official voice allowed, so that is all the people know. In a "free" society propaganda still exists, the difference being that the people are generally split into two conflicting camps and choose between which side of the propaganda they prefer to believe. This is of course a more subtle approach, but still serves the purpose of keeping the eyes of the masses averted from what is really going on. At least in the realm of religion, I am only too happy to read the Scriptures for myself and draw my own conclusions. I only wish more would do the same.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Why is this stickied again?

Chris

 

[Quahom1]

Why is this stickied again?

Chris

it was never unstickied...

 

[mee]

Admittedly, Revelations is a very difficult book to dissect and digest. Few other books in the Bible are so oblique.

The understanding and the revealing is now abundant in many ways, and the enlightenment goes on DANIEL 12;4

and those who are given insight and enlightenment are SPIRITUAL ISRAEL