islamis4u
Vision To Spread Islam
May be, Its your opinion.
Muslimwoman
Coexistence insha'Allah
I know you quoted 60:1 but I answered by quoting 3 verses, to explain the meaning of the words used in relation to 'friends' and 'allies'.
So let us look at verse 60:1 (this is Pickthals translation)
O ye who believe! Choose not My enemy and your enemy for allies. Do ye give them friendship when they disbelieve in that truth which hath come unto you, driving out the messenger and you because ye believe in Allah, your Lord? If ye have come forth to strive in My way and seeking My good pleasure, (show them not friendship). Do ye show friendship unto them in secret, when I am Best Aware of what ye hide and what ye proclaim? And whosoever doeth it among you, he verily hath strayed from the right way. (60:1)
We know that this verse was revealed just after Hadrat Hatib bin Abz Balta'a had befriended the Meccans, in order to seek their protection for his family, and sent them a secret letter telling them of the Messengers war plans. This letter was intercepted and many lives were saved (both Muslim and Quraish).
As I am sure you know Hadrat Hatib bin Abz Balta'a was a Muslim, not an unbeliever.
So from this we know the verse is talking about befriending anyone that would betray the Muslims and make allies of our enemies, as well as our enemies themselves.
This is from Maududi's commentary about this verse:
Administering a severe warning at this blunder Allah has taught the believers the lesson that no believer should, under any circumstances and for any motive, have relations of love and friendship with the disbelievers, who are actively hostile to Islam, and a believer should refrain from everything which might be helpful to them in the conflict between Islam and disbelief.
Then I am very happy that I do not live in Pakistan and very, very sad that people are using this verse so badly to teach intolerence.
Of course that is it but what the Quran tells us is not to be friends with our enemies or people that would betray us. Of course this makes sense and is the right way.
islamis4u
Vision To Spread Islam
Point of debate is friends okay? I told you i undertand what what my language tells me i tell you the English 'friend' word in urdu means brother like relation, so the meaning you are taking out is something else i say it is because of language which we speak.
Lastly please if you quote a thing please quote completely, you take out something in between like about scholars in Pakistan, other while reading the post will think that im saying that we should believe these scholars.
I have read the commentary i gave the reason the reason arrising is the meaning of a friend in its is different in our language so when i translate friend in Urdu it means 'Dost' and dost other then what you are talking about friend, dost means like you are like little smaller then brotherly relation.
Lastly please if you quote a thing please quote completely, you take out something in between like about scholars in Pakistan, other while reading the post will think that im saying that we should believe these scholars.
I have read the commentary i gave the reason the reason arrising is the meaning of a friend in its is different in our language so when i translate friend in Urdu it means 'Dost' and dost other then what you are talking about friend, dost means like you are like little smaller then brotherly relation.
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
islam is not for me, either, as much as i respect it. and it is attitudes like yours that embarrass the muslims that i am friends. what the hell kind of person will only be friends with someone else if there's a chance they might be able to convert them? that, my conditional friend, is called *dishonesty*. it is *not* friendship, but pure hypocrisy and it desecrates the Divine Name to attribute such an attitude to Allah. friends - or allies, or brothers, or whatever, like you, frankly, i can do without.islamis4u said:
and *this* is precisely why pakistan is such a basket case and, moreover is something that cannot be blamed on anyone else but their own obscurantism.muslimwoman said:
b'shalom
bananabrain
Saltmeister
The Dangerous Dinner
There may indeed have been a misunderstanding due to language barriers. Here is one of his earlier posts of "friendship" between a Muslim and non-Muslims.
I think he was merely trying to say (as in his earlier post), that sometimes friendships aren't practical, perhaps for political reasons. So he made a distinction between friendship and acquaintance. I suppose that a "Muslim identity" and loyalty to the Islamic collective are very important to some Muslims, and that if anything gets in the way of their ultimate divine mission as Muslims because of a relationship with a non-Muslim, they must sacrifice the latter.
"Not friends" doesn't necessarily mean "enemy." That may be the misunderstanding. I have many acquaintances, but very few friends (maybe even none at all
). Acquaintances are people who know you, friends are special people who, usually, care about you. I suppose the word "friend" is often subjective in this regard. A friend is a very good acquaintance. A very special acquaintance.But anyway, perhaps what Islamis4u was saying was that a Muslim should not commit to being friends with non-Muslims, not that they wouldn't want to get to know us or get acquainted. It's a policy where they don't commit to caring for non-Muslims. Not that they wouldn't care for anyone. They just won't commit.
To me that's quite reasonable. There's no law saying that everyone (religious or non-religious) has to have friends. Are you somehow an enemy of humanity if you don't? No friends so it means you hate humans? Lol certainly not. It just means that you haven't committed to caring for anyone yet.
Here I'm just being an optimist.
I don't want to prejudge Islamis4u as an enemy of humanity.Perhaps it's like dating, where a man who has a girlfriend and a woman who has a boyfriend say to people when they're seen together, "we're just friends." Lol just friends? Nothing between the two of you? So in Islamis4u's case there is the acquaintance, the next level up is the friend. In the case of dating, you have a friend, and the next level up is a person with whom you sleep with, marry and have sex.
It's tempting to ask for the upgrade, but one is better-advised to not do it.
It may be expensive or involve a lot of maintenance issues.Lol that example I brought up there was a rather erotic one.
But yeah I like throwing one of these things in every now and then because it's funny.It kind of amazes me how people translate auliya as friends. I think I have posted in this thread before, & have discussed this word in detail.
Secondly, it needs to be realised that the first person who thought of Muhammad as a prophet was a christian monk, the first who accepted his call was a christian, the first who helped muslims save their life was a christian king, the first who invited muslims to attack them were christians (not roman catholics),.... so its a bit hard to believe that these people werent friends.
The verse simply means...dont take allies, in war times, from jews & christians, at the cost of allience with muslims. Very simple.
BTW, in arabic, simple acquaintance is Rafiq (companion/comrade), & a firend is Siddiq (truthful/sincere friend).
Secondly, it needs to be realised that the first person who thought of Muhammad as a prophet was a christian monk, the first who accepted his call was a christian, the first who helped muslims save their life was a christian king, the first who invited muslims to attack them were christians (not roman catholics),.... so its a bit hard to believe that these people werent friends.
The verse simply means...dont take allies, in war times, from jews & christians, at the cost of allience with muslims. Very simple.
BTW, in arabic, simple acquaintance is Rafiq (companion/comrade), & a firend is Siddiq (truthful/sincere friend).
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
simple, but it assumes that because someone is muslim, they are automatically more worthy as allies than jews or christians. what if the jews or christians deserve your alliance more than the muslims; this is entirely possible. consequently i think this sentence makes far more sense in its historical context (ie the arabian jews and christians of muhammad's time) than it does as a general rule; this is a very common problem in terms of statements about "the jews" or "the christians" in the Qur'an.farhan said:
b'shalom
bananabrain
islamis4u
Vision To Spread Islam
First see your language please their are many code of conducts for copying done by a Muslims is their not any code of conduct for using nice and respectfull language?
What are you saying about my country take your words back okay i have never used disrespectful words for any okay!!!
I do not know if you are true super mod here then and using this type of language for other's country then what will other do.
Comming to your reply
I said that and im keeping my words okay and one thing more you know i do not say you agree with me or not but for me my religion is the true religion for me okay once more im saying im not pointing out but i will then think that other is not on right path and we in friendship have to save them save them from help again in my view. so its rather more friendly to save someone from hell. It is different for every religion for every person his or her religion is most sacred one and true if you call him or her to him her religion you are in their view saving them its not dishonesty.
Namaste Islamis4u
ah the crux of the bisquit for me!
Any religion, any group, any organization, any person that tells me, I should only listen to them and no other, I'm out the door!!
Contemplate this, there are poor, disabled, when I encounter them and make a decision to help it is not based on religion or what someone says I can or can't do.
When it comes to discussions with mathemeticians, scientists, philosophers, doctors, nurses, real estate agents, tax attorneys, if I were told that I had to only use ones that had the same color hair, eyes, skin, religion, nationality, I'd say shove it.
Lastly it is my opinion being as opinionated as I am that any group that trys to control an individuals freedom to learn what is outside the group has a good reason, they are hiding the truth and afraid their house of cards will crumble if they get an aware educated thinking individual in their midst.
True their is deception everywhere, sometimes very close at hand!
Peace my brother I am so glad you are here discussing these issues with us.
Saltmeister
The Dangerous Dinner
Well, usually they're not deliberately trying to deceive; they're self-deceived.
They think they are speaking the truth......But they have an agenda......That agenda is to implement some kind of utopia where everyone believes what they believe. This utopia they desire doesn't necessarily contain the whole world, but the in-group they control. They want everyone in the group to conform to the tenets and doctrines of their ideology because they believe that by aligning people to this framework, they will be able to increase the power of the ideology they follow. They will be more effective in achieving what they see as Perfection or "the Ultimate Goal," which, being either perfect or ultimate in their view, they see as the most honourable thing anyone can have as their life's purpose. If they purge all non-conformists and purify the group of all corrupted ideas, the utopian-bound collective that devotes itself perfectly to the ideology that the group of people has gathered to promote, serve, protect and fulfill creates a self-contained system that can both maintain its own existence and possibly, if the group decides, expand and proselyte, guaranteeing the survival of the ideological system they have sworn to protect and serve and achieving the divine purpose they see as their ultimate purpose (the most honourable purpose one can imagine, and which they choose to follow for this reason) in life.
Most cults, I believe have this implicit and instinctive notion. It's rarely written down because it's assumed and taken for granted for what it is.
I think the story of the Tower of Babel was an example of such a system that used a physical object. Every ideology promoted and maintained in this way could be seen as a Tower of Babel. Although the object of alignment and devotion is not a physical object, it has a substitute: ideology.
islamis4u
Vision To Spread Islam
Dah-veeth
Abeja Maya
I didn't read all seven pages, but I'll go back and read some of it...
Can Muslims be friends with Jews and Christians?
Emphatically YES!
Can Muslims be friends with Zoroastrians and Baha'is?
Emphatically YES!
The Holy Qur'an says, "Let there be no compulsion in religion."
Love one another!
Love Muslims and Jews!
Love Christians and Hindus!
Love Buddhists and Baha'is, etc., etc.!
Love!
It's a commandment, isn't it? Thou shalt love!
Can Muslims be friends with Jews and Christians?
Emphatically YES!
Can Muslims be friends with Zoroastrians and Baha'is?
Emphatically YES!
The Holy Qur'an says, "Let there be no compulsion in religion."
Love one another!
Love Muslims and Jews!
Love Christians and Hindus!
Love Buddhists and Baha'is, etc., etc.!
Love!
It's a commandment, isn't it? Thou shalt love!
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
actually, you have. your comments about "the west" are both disparaging and ignorant. you need to understand the meaning of "fair comment". i am entitled to have an opinion, just as you are entitled to one. if i think your opinion is incorrect, i will challenge it. that is called debate. merely exchanging respectful pleasantries may be what you have in mind, but it would be a) very boring and b) unproductive if anyone is to learn anything. if you can't handle people having a different opinion from yourself, or less than complimentary opinions on your religion, nationality and views than you're not going to enjoy this process at all unless you try and understand how you are coming across. i criticise my country when it deserves it and i criticise other countries likewise. pakistan is no more perfect than the UK, US, or anywhere else - including israel, which i notice you single out for particular criticism, what a surprise that is. this is no place for misguided jingoism or chauvinism.islamis4u said:
of course everyone is entitled to hold this point of view.
ok, but just because "you are right" does not mean other people are necessarily wrong - unless, of course, your religion makes universal claims. plenty don't, including mine. and an offer of "help", of course, may be misguided or indeed completely unnecessary. i wouldn't come over to your house and offer you my help on your urdu language skills, because you don't need it. english, on the other hand....
look, mate, this may be news to you, but outside of your particular little pond it is considered at best patronising and at worst insulting to consider that other people are "going to hell". the world is full of people that think everyone else is going to hell - why don't you nip over to the christian board and talk to our good friend "mee", who is a jehovah's witness. according to him (or it might be her, i don't know) *you're* going to hell, so is everyone else who isn't a JW. frankly, i will take my chances, because G!D Is the only True Judge and muhammad knew that better than you appear to do. i don't need "saving", not by you, not by christians, not by anyone - so i advise you get over that particular approach right now.
b'shalom
bananabrain
Dah-veeth
Abeja Maya
God is our Loving Creator... I believe people from any religion can get to heaven by loving God.. or at least loving goodness, loving the light.
greymare
Well-Known Member
now, my friend, if that was everyones philosophy, the world would be a better place.
Dah-veeth
Abeja Maya
now, my friend, if that was everyones philosophy, the world would be a better place.
Matthew 12:31,32, I posted this topic in the Baha'i forum... it basically says, in my understanding, that God will forgive people for denying a Manifestation of God... if they love God... what it says is it's not forgiveable to blaspheme against the Holy Ghost (i.e. hating the light) but it is forgiveable to blaspheme against the Son of Man (i.e. a Manifestation of God.) So love God! Whatever your religion or beliefs, love the Light!
17th Angel
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Assalam u alaikum wa rahmatulahi wa baakatuhu,
MW.... That truly sounds like the words of a ulama....
Loving others, is to love Allah, to love, to care, to respect your fellow man, your fellow creatures, your planet... All is to love Allah... Such deeds cannot lead anywhere BUT into his grace and to him you shall return.
ma salama....
Dah-veeth
Abeja Maya
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
dah-veeth,
it's very easy to trot out platitudes about love, but i think we're here to have more substantial discussions after the tea and biscuits have been consumed.
b'shalom
bananabrain
it's very easy to trot out platitudes about love, but i think we're here to have more substantial discussions after the tea and biscuits have been consumed.
b'shalom
bananabrain
17th Angel
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Not so easy to follow through...