Are you a heretic?

[Ciel]

Hi Christina -

In reality (? - another one?) this web format is far from ideal in such discussions, as the nuance gets lost ...

I learnt long ago never to go along with something proclaiming love, but with only the intention of control. Thus my opposition to any form of dogma...

I know what you mean, but then, the idea of 'divine love' is a dogma ... for there is no proof.

... and this is the point that I simply cannot escape. What we like is not dogma; what we don't like is a dogma ... when in fact they are equally dogma – what people don't like, and quite rightly, is a view or an opinion forced upon them.

I was brought up a cradle Catholic, and walked away, and said many of the things which I not speak out against here. I taught as much for 4 years in an Hermetic order. My dear mother talks of the heartbreak she felt when I insisted that 'Christ was just a man, a teacher, a sage, but nothing more ...' (and other dogmas of the New Age).

Something else I learnt ... the worst form of control is the dogma of 'anything goes' because fundamentally its a rejection of personal responsibility.

Then I learnt a lesson. Christianity is not about being a nice person...

'Man does not choose his tradition. Tradition calls the man.'

Thomas

Thomas,

Wrote you a long post, and lost it on a frozen screen.

Incredible relief.......I realise this is what dogma does.......

It requires one to justify.

I am grateful for the wake up call, I was falling asleep.

And this I call a calling from God.

- c -

 

[Snoopy]

As I have said before, I remeber the craze for Buddhist Chanting, and one of the 'proofs' was the guy who chanted for a new Porsche ... and got one. I bet the Buddha would be proud ...

But as I am continually being told ... the guy knew what was best for him, perhaps Buddha wanted him to have a Porsche ...

Hi Thomas,

I've not heard of this before, but I agree (if that's what you're implying) I think it may well be heretical!

s.

 

[cavalier]

'Man does not choose his tradition. Tradition calls the man.'

I'm joining the thread late, sorry if I'm going off at a tangeant.
I would agree with you here. Do you think though that we already have all the traditions, or might some people be called by a tradition as yet unknown?

 

[Caimanson]

I would agree with you here. Do you think though that we already have all the traditions, or might some people be called by a tradition as yet unknown?

Sorry Cavalier, that is just very funny!

 

[cavalier]

Why?

 

[Caimanson]

I suppose it is more about your comment sparking an internal joke in me.
I got this sense of irony or sarcasm, not saying that you did, just the way I saw it.

If we assume that tradition calls the man, then where are we left when we also assume that men may be called by these yet unknown traditions (that are men's own creation anyway).

So the logical conclusion (and joke for me) is the opposite of the original stament: that man chooses and/or creates his own tradition.

Apologies if I make no sense.

 

[cavalier]

I suppose it is more about your comment sparking an internal joke in me.
I got this sense of irony or sarcasm, not saying that you did, just the way I saw it.

If we assume that tradition calls the man, then where are we left when we also assume that men may be called by these yet unknown traditions (that are men's own creation anyway).

So the logical conclusion (and joke for me) is the opposite of the original stament: that man chooses and/or creates his own tradition.

Apologies if I make no sense.

You do make sense, but I don't agree.
I do not believe that traditions are created by men, I think they come from God. Perhaps I should say that they mainly come from God.
Even if you do not hold to this view however, I still don't think you're reasoning holds up. If not from God, traditions would be the creations of man, not a man. Any tradition would be greater than something one man could create. Therefore while mankind could create its own tradition, a man, as you suggested, could not.

 

[wil]

Therefore while mankind could create its own tradition, a man, as you suggested, could not.

Kwanza, TM, I think we can find a number of traditions that were started at the impetus of one...they may take a number of things from before and combine them....but haven't the others as well...

 

[cavalier]

Kwanza, TM, I think we can find a number of traditions that were started at the impetus of one...they may take a number of things from before and combine them....but haven't the others as well...

I confess to having no idea what Kwanza and TM are.
I would agree with you, some/many traditions started with the impetus of one. As both of those highlighted words would suggest however, the tradition was not the creation of just that one.

 

[Ciel]

Then I learnt a lesson. Christianity is not about being a nice person...


Thomas

Thomas, Where are you............ Where is the love?

- c -

 

[Snoopy]

Couldn't help but notice the passing discussion re "zen Christianity." Dogma-wise nothing probalby could be on the surface of it more different in aim (let alone method) as Buddhism and Christianity.

Hi Earl,

Amongst others perhaps on here, seattlegal seems to maintain a seamless balancing of zen and Christianity. (if she doesn't mind me saying so?)

s.

 

[seattlegal]

Hi Earl,

Amongst others perhaps on here, seattlegal seems to maintain a seamless balancing of zen and Christianity. (if she doesn't mind me saying so?)

s.

Well, my zen was obtained (unbeknownst to be--thanks, Sen-Sei!) without any of the zen vocabulary or associated philosophy/theory before I became a Christian. (My Sen-Sei told me that I was way too theory-based in my thinking, and snuck some zen practice into the rest of my martial arts lessons. It wasn't until after I became a Christian, and started comparative religious studies, that I recognized that the seated breathing exercise Sen-Sei snuck in with the Qi-Gung was zen meditation, that the riddles he would ask were koans, and the joking conversations he would have with me while I practiced my katas were mondos, and if I gave a bad answer, he'd knock me on top of the head with his knuckles instead of using a zen stick.) It was already part of my personality when I became a Christian, and I had no means at the time to identify it as something to be discarded. **shrug**

{btw, do you want to know what I mean by slapping a zen practitioner with a fish? It's waking them up to the Christian gospel--the testimony of Jesus.}

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Well, my zen was obtained (unbeknownst to be--thanks, Sen-Sei!) without any of the zen vocabulary or associated philosophy/theory before I became a Christian. (My Sen-Sei told me that I was way too theory-based in my thinking, and snuck some zen practice into the rest of my martial arts lessons. It wasn't until after I became a Christian, and started comparative religious studies, that I recognized that the seated breathing exercise Sen-Sei snuck in with the Qi-Gung was zen meditation, that the riddles he would ask were koans, and the joking conversations he would have with me while I practiced my katas were mondos, and if I gave a bad answer, he'd knock me on top of the head with his knuckles instead of using a zen stick.) It was already part of my personality when I became a Christian, and I had no means at the time to identify it as something to be discarded. **shrug**

{btw, do you want to know what I mean by slapping a zen practitioner with a fish? It's waking them up to the Christian gospel--the testimony of Jesus.}

Now that's totally groovy!

I find philosophical Christianity, which to me is simply Greek philosophy through rose colored glasses, and Taoist philosophy to be perfectly compatible. Add a little Hindu cosmology flavored quantum physics, a bit of Western Hermetica, some Jewish mysticism, and beat...well!

Chris

 

[Paladin]

wow, all this slapping and beating! So much for the idea that mixed spirituality is easy

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

wow, all this slapping and beating! So much for the idea that mixed spirituality is easy

LOL!

I like the buffet approach, but I'm not a syncretist. I don't think all the religions are saying the same thing, just that a lot of the stuff in the middle meshes quite nicely. I say I'm not a syncretist because as much as I like the eastern approach, I don't believe in the dimunition of the ego as the path to enlightenment. Kinda Randian that way, although I'm not a devotee of the rest of her philosophy. Anyway, I think that I'd much rather quest than contemplate, but I do appreciate the transcendental nature of things.

Chris

 

[flowperson]

China Cat:

I have found through my life experiences that without questing there cannot be any transcendance. What true things you have written here today !

flow....

 

[Caimanson]

Now that's totally groovy!

I find philosophical Christianity, which to me is simply Greek philosophy through rose colored glasses, and Taoist philosophy to be perfectly compatible. Add a little Hindu cosmology flavored quantum physics, a bit of Western Hermetica, some Jewish mysticism, and beat...well!

Chris

HOW HERETIC!

 

[Snoopy]

{btw, do you want to know what I mean by slapping a zen practitioner with a fish? It's waking them up to the Christian gospel--the testimony of Jesus.}

Hi sg,

Should one bring a sowester?

s.

 

[seattlegal]

Hi sg,

Should one bring a sowester?

s.

If you feel that you can't handle the rain without it.

 

[seattlegal]

'Man does not choose his tradition. Tradition calls the man.'

Thomas

That would make me a heretic to zen, then I guess, even though I was being unknowingly trained in the traditions of Zen without any of the philosophy, since I wasn't raised in any religion.

Well, my zen was obtained (unbeknownst to be--thanks, Sen-Sei!) without any of the zen vocabulary or associated philosophy/theory before I became a Christian. (My Sen-Sei told me that I was way too theory-based in my thinking, and snuck some zen practice into the rest of my martial arts lessons. It wasn't until after I became a Christian, and started comparative religious studies, that I recognized that the seated breathing exercise Sen-Sei snuck in with the Qi-Gung was zen meditation, that the riddles he would ask were koans, and the joking conversations he would have with me while I practiced my katas were mondos, and if I gave a bad answer, he'd knock me on top of the head with his knuckles instead of using a zen stick.) It was already part of my personality when I became a Christian, and I had no means at the time to identify it as something to be discarded. **shrug**

{btw, do you want to know what I mean by slapping a zen practitioner with a fish? It's waking them up to the Christian gospel--the testimony of Jesus.}

Hi toujour,

Yes I know of the decay prior to Maitreya but wasn't really worrying just seeing what people thought about the dharma in the face of evangelism (and worse). IMO I think the growth of zen is because of it's bare bones rationality and directness. Plus of course the neat outfits.

s.

Yep, that settles it. I'm a Zen heretic, who got "slapped with a fish," and was called away by the evangelism of Christianity!