Creationism, Intelligent Design, Evolution or .... what?

And how is the approach you're taking now any different from the way you handled the existence of G-d?
lol, they are not comparable. I posit a vaguely possible notion based upon the work of real living physicists. It is potentially provable or disprovable as new observations are made and confirmed. It is an "idea" not a "belief".

I've asked you before: Why would anyone expect "evidence" for something that is a matter of faith? Makes no sense.

Faith-based assertions are axiological. As we've discussed elsewhere, such assertions are by definition nonfalsifiable. They cannot be disconfirmed. Moreover, they are immune from scientific inquiry precisely because they don't call for evidence. If evidence were possible, they would not longer be faith-based assertions or axiological claims.

A.J Ayer once suggested that "If the assertion that there is a god is nonsensical, then the atheist’s assertion that there is no god is equally non-sensical." To try to apply a scientific standard of evidence to creation stories makes no sense either.

You entire line of argument reflects deepseated confusion about concepts and language. If I may humbly suggest you do a Google search on the term "God talk."

lol, you come to me with every theist cop-out in the book and you think I dont understand!! Lmfao. Slippery, slidery, dodge and duck. It is you who keeps trying to insist on propping up your own self-justifications by imposing artificial restraints on what is or is not provable beyond reasonable doubt. You can keep on insisting but I am not pandering to what you think are the parameters of what I can call evidence. You keep returning it to only what you say makes sense but you only do so because you wish to avoid answering a real question. Since no scientific evidence is permissible why do you even bother talking to me? Could it be you are trying the tack of making me appear stupid and like I dont know what I am talking about? Could be perceived that way you know. Or is it because you know as well as I do that no faith or belief stands up in the face of even basic scrutiny? Who knows. Since you are not willing or are incapable of answering the same questions you pose me I just cannot know.

tao

tao
 
lol, they are not comparable.
Hi friend Tao, thanks for sticking with this!! :)

The Creationism and "existence of God" questions are not only comparable; they are overlapping. One could infer the existence of G-d from evidence of His action as Prime Mover, for example.

Theoretically, if it were of interest, one could prove the existence of G-d directly or one could seek to confirm it indirectly via evidence of supernatural causation. But both approaches are fundamentally misguided in the same way because they involve the inappropriate use of analytic language to deal with non-analytic things. I say "if it were of interest" because the question of G-d the Creator might be considered irrelevant. Some Buddhists see it that way and a fair number of philosophers, linguists and scientists see it that way. I personally I think it's the wrong question, too.

I posit a vaguely possible notion based upon the work of real living physicists. It is potentially provable or disprovable as new observations are made and confirmed.
That sounds like it would be a analytic approach that emphasizes basic elements of science like observation. Such an approach has questionable value in relation to fides quaerens intellectum or faith seeking understanding.

It is an "idea" not a "belief".

To me the only difference between an idea and a belief is that a belief is more specific and includes an element of literal truth. Belief is therefore more relevant to a discussion that assumes that discussants will be making conclusory statements that potentially meet criteria for scientific truth or assertions that would be considered true "beyond a reasonable doubt."

According to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, a contemporary view is that belief is a "propositional attitude." Further, "Propositions are generally taken to be whatever it is that sentences express." Based on my limited understandings, literal truth is not particularly important here. Indeed, as my Philosophy of Religion professors noted, religious language and imagery tends to be in the category of "Metaverbal Expressionism."

The expressionistic qualities of religion are most evident in Hinduism where mythic stories include imagery so unusual that one would not reasonably expect to ever see the referent objects in real life. My feeling is that this was all very self-conscious (and in some cases very humorous) on the part of people who were trying to teach us something about human existence through their portrayal of the fanciful characters who appear in these stories.

Here is a nice picture of Ganesha, one of the more popular deities in the Hindu pantheon:

ask-ganesha.jpg


Hinduism has thousands of gods. One objection to this proliferation of gods in Hinduism is that it got to the point where there were too many for people to keep track of. Maybe we can track one of them down. Has Ganesha happened by at your local beer establishment perchance? ;)

lol, you come to me with every theist cop-out in the book and you think I don't understand!!

Sorry if I seem impatient. But it would be helpful if you allowed for the possibility that good faith efforts to understand how people use religion are not necessarily cop-outs. It is also not a cop out for me to remind you that issues of faith are by definition not expected to be subject to confirmation by evidence.

Slippery, slidery, dodge and duck. It is you who keeps trying to insist on propping up your own self-justifications by imposing artificial restraints on what is or is not provable beyond reasonable doubt.
When people accept certain things on faith, it's because they don't need observable evidence. But it seems you want to tell them that they SHOULD require evidence.

The validity of a scientific theory is evaluated by testing the predictions that follow from the theory. As suggested previously, one way to confirm the existence of G-d would be to ascertain His role in the creation of the universe. So what would G-d's creative action in look like? Wouldn't you need to have some idea as to what to expect in order to formulate a testable hypothesis? Pray tell, which creation story was written with the intent of evaluating it on scientific grounds?

Since no scientific evidence is permissible why do you even bother talking to me?
I enjoy the interaction. I also enjoy discourse analysis and language. How about you?

Could it be you are trying the tack of making me appear stupid and like I don't know what I am talking about? Could be perceived that way you know.
I don't take online identities very seriously, do you?

Or is it because you know as well as I do that no faith or belief stands up in the face of even basic scrutiny?
When you say "basic scrutiny," do you mean scientific evaluation involving hypothesis testing? If so, I would simply remind you that it makes no sense to apply a scientific standard to issues that are by definition immune from scientific evaluation. I mean, do you read TS Eliot in order to evaluate the thermal capacity of the old dew pond near Chanctonbury Ring, West Sussex?

You have mentioned the "beyond a reasonable doubt standard without actually defining it. I think it's an interesting standard of evidence and wonder if it can be applied to a basic question: Do we know beyond a reasonable doubt that the universe and life as we know it be exactly the same if there is no Creator G-d? I don't presume to know the answer, but it seems some people do. To my way of thinking, this is a form of epistemic arrogance that shows little appreciation for the fact that scientific truth is largely dependent on the measurement paradigm in which evidence is gathered and interpreted.

It is very possible that our current understandings of G-d have not led the development of the means as yet to evaluate G-d's role as a Creator. Did radiation not exist before we could detect it? How about radio waves? As you can see, a standard of evidence doesn't mean much if it posits that G-d should be assumed to have had no role in the creation of the universe until there is evidence of it. I don't think that's reasonable at all.

Within a scientific framework the situation is analogous to the scientist who does not know how to design a proper experiment simply assuming he/she would never find the evidence without even having run the study. Not very scientific, is it?



The fact that there is no evidence for supernatural causation at this time may just reflect on the inadequacies of our measurement paradigm. My point here is that if one is going to predicate belief in the existence of G-d on evidence of His Creative action, then it would probably result in agnosticism rather than atheism. As the Wiki entry on agnosticism points out,
All rational statements that assert a factual claim about the universe that begin 'I believe that ....' are simply shorthand for, 'Based on my knowledge, understanding, and interpretation of the prevailing evidence, I tentatively believe that....'
The provisional nature of knowledge is such, that it would lead to a conclusion such as the one you have articulated that we are "years from getting close to answering the really big question in a definitive way." This should lead to an attitude of humility rather than arrogant dismissiveness.

Since you are not willing or are incapable of answering the same questions you pose me I just cannot know.
I don't understand your logic here. I have not taken a position on Creationism Intelligent Design, or Evolution one way or the other. In fact, I just explained why I would not take any such position.

I have merely pointed out that an attempt to use of analytic language to deal with non-analytic things is unworkable. I see no need to accept a burden of proof for a position I have not taken.
 
Am I the only one that thinks the entire argument is really quite amusing? I mean, here is a creature (Man) spawned by What Is, turns around and looks at the world and the universe, and deems himself somehow separate from, and pronounces judgment upon it. "Oh look at all this!" he says, "oh how intelligent!" all the while forgetting where his so called intelligence arose from.
I dunno seems somehow arrogant to call reality intelligent as if we were in a position to judge it.
If everything is really as it is, then nothing could be intelligent or unintelligent, it simply is. Perhaps the only genuine reaction to what we seem to be experiencing here in this life is wonder, awe, and even possibly gratitude for the chance to have awareness of it all if only for a moment.
I could not have said it better. Om.
 
Sorry, missed this before.
Just taking the talk to my lady and I was explaining about the big bang theory.... Anyway we got on to another part of personal evidence for me, and I thought, I was speaking with Tao about this, evidence, of, design... DNA the life source computer software that is coded to say I am going to be White, I will be average height, blue eyes, light hair, I will have slightly damaged eye site, I will be funny, or serious, My teeth with grow straight.... It goes on, the list seriously goes on... I thought that is some good organisation and design there.
lol...do you know that your DNA has almost no more protein coding than a 500 cell nematode worm? Yeh DNA and RNA is amazining stuff and we are only just beginning to unlock the secrets of how it works. But we can see it's evolution and it's flaws. Infact if it were not for its flaws there would be no evolution. But if as the Bible says we were created perfect there would be no flaws. If all life were created complete and fully functioning there would be flawless perfect organisms with rigid hard-wired coding. But that is not what we see. It is complex yes, but it has had 4,000,000,000 years to become complex and we can see the stepping stones of its development.

If you want to get an idea of current thinking on it try this site:
Evolution of DNA
 
Hi Netti,
The Creationism and "existence of God" questions are not only comparable; they are overlapping. One could infer the existence of G-d from evidence of His action as Prime Mover, for example.
Ohhh yeh, God the domino toppler. Trouble with that is science can reduce down to a couple of primary elements and even at that level there is no evidence for interference. Quite the opposite, it seems that chaos not design is the prime mover.


That sounds like it would be a analytic approach that emphasizes basic elements of science like observation. Such an approach has questionable value in relation to fides quaerens intellectum or faith seeking understanding.
Again you really make me feel like I am banging my head against the brick wall again. You may say this. Theists may say this. Some philosophers may say this. But I and a lot of other atheists vehemently disagree. It is a slippery get out clause, nothing more.


According to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, a contemporary view is that belief is a "propositional attitude." Further, "Propositions are generally taken to be whatever it is that sentences express." Based on my limited understandings, literal truth is not particularly important here. Indeed, as my Philosophy of Religion professors noted, religious language and imagery tends to be in the category of "Metaverbal Expressionism."
Yeh, well go tell that to the creationists.

The expressionistic qualities of religion are most evident in Hinduism where mythic stories include imagery so unusual that one would not reasonably expect to ever see the referent objects in real life. My feeling is that this was all very self-conscious (and in some cases very humorous) on the part of people who were trying to teach us something about human existence through their portrayal of the fanciful characters who appear in these stories.
Here is a nice picture of Ganesha, one of the more popular deities in the Hindu pantheon:

ask-ganesha.jpg


Hinduism has thousands of gods. One objection to this proliferation of gods in Hinduism is that it got to the point where there were too many for people to keep track of. Maybe we can track one of them down. Has Ganesha happened by at your local beer establishment perchance? ;)
lol, nope I have to say I have never seen a pink elephant. I know that threads have a tendency to wander and that's often what makes them most interesting, and while I seem to be picking up the vibe you are some sort of religious scholar, which can make for interesting reading, I keep getting the feeling you think your way is the only way to approach anything. My life has taught me that there is usually many ways to approach a subject and this is what I do, I find a way. You keep saying "cant". I will continue to find a "can".
As for Hinduism it is the biggest surviving religion with direct and obvious ancestry back to the animism of prehistory. If you have ever partaken of any hallucinogen you would know that the animals around you do indeed become imbued with mystical presence. But that is the effect of the drug. And religion itself has similar psychological or psychosomatic affects on the believer.


Sorry if I seem impatient. But it would be helpful if you allowed for the possibility that good faith efforts to understand how people use religion are not necessarily cop-outs. It is also not a cop out for me to remind you that issues of faith are by definition not expected to be subject to confirmation by evidence.
Again, go tell that to the creationists.



When people accept certain things on faith, it's because they don't need observable evidence. But it seems you want to tell them that they SHOULD require evidence.
Absolutely! Faith is not some ivory temple free from negative influence. In most countries and cultures faith is integral to the political and social values and policies. They have real effects that, as history shows us ever so brutally, effect the lives of all people. Your faith effects me. It is not some neutral concept.


The validity of a scientific theory is evaluated by testing the predictions that follow from the theory. As suggested previously, one way to confirm the existence of G-d would be to ascertain His role in the creation of the universe. So what would G-d's creative action in look like? Wouldn't you need to have some idea as to what to expect in order to formulate a testable hypothesis? Pray tell, which creation story was written with the intent of evaluating it on scientific grounds?
Come now, you are the one always suggesting I do a google on this or that. I'm sure it will take you no time at all to dig up a so called scientific creationist website.



I enjoy the interaction. I also enjoy discourse analysis and language. How about you?
Yes, so long as I do not have to keep repeating myself on the very simplest of concepts to understand.



I don't take online identities very seriously, do you?
I may use a pseudo name but the person you read is the real me. And I am serious about seeing religion as a detriment to human progress, perhaps even survival.



When you say "basic scrutiny," do you mean scientific evaluation involving hypothesis testing? If so, I would simply remind you that it makes no sense to apply a scientific standard to issues that are by definition immune from scientific evaluation. I mean, do you read TS Eliot in order to evaluate the thermal capacity of the old dew pond near Chanctonbury Ring, West Sussex?
Again I remind you that religion is not a self contained idea without any real effects. It effects me and every other man, woman and child on this planet. For you to try and narrow it down to some intellectual debate is completely missing the point.


It is very possible that our current understandings of G-d have not led the development of the means as yet to evaluate G-d's role as a Creator. Did radiation not exist before we could detect it? How about radio waves? As you can see, a standard of evidence doesn't mean much if it posits that G-d should be assumed to have had no role in the creation of the universe until there is evidence of it. I don't think that's reasonable at all.

Within a scientific framework the situation is analogous to the scientist who does not know how to design a proper experiment simply assuming he/she would never find the evidence without even having run the study. Not very scientific, is it?
But theologian after theologian down the centuries have cited their evidence, their proofs, and every time they have been proven to be utter garbage. In the modern era with science advancing as it does theologians are paranoid about making such claims. Instead like you they duck and dive and use a lot of words to say absolutely nothing at all. Claiming special sanctuary from rational scrutiny is nothing but blatant deception.



The provisional nature of knowledge is such, that it would lead to a conclusion such as the one you have articulated that we are "years from getting close to answering the really big question in a definitive way." This should lead to an attitude of humility rather than arrogant dismissiveness.
My dismissiveness is not arrogant, it is indignant. Religion is not truth seeking, it is its polar opposite. My opinion, and that of most people who call themselves atheists, is that religion does far more harm than good. And we have the whole of the historical record to back up such a claim. The language of the Abrahamic religions is supremacist, filled with hate, murder, rape and theft. The states where it is practised have through history lived up to those lessons, not the "goody two shoes" bits. This is the reality of religion. I talk about realities not the immaterial.


tao
 
Hey, welcome back, intrepidlover! :)

Thank you. I have been busy posting at meetchristians.com It is much more challenging than posting here, as most of the members are fundamentalists. I have sufficient knowledge of Christianity to debate sensibly and I feel that I am making some progress, however so slight, in provoking these good folk into examining their beliefs.

However I have permantly upset one member who is 76 years of age. I pointed out the literal rendering of certain verses in Genesis and suggested that God had lied and Satan (the serpent) had told the truth.

Here is the Scripture:

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Well of course they didn't die "in the day" and in fact Adam lived for 900 years. And so I am labelled "the person who said God lied." :D
 
Thank you. I have been busy posting at meetchristians.com It is much more challenging than posting here, as most of the members are fundamentalists. I have sufficient knowledge of Christianity to debate sensibly and I feel that I am making some progress, however so slight, in provoking these good folk into examining their beliefs.

However I have permantly upset one member who is 76 years of age. I pointed out the literal rendering of certain verses in Genesis and suggested that God had lied and Satan (the serpent) had told the truth.

Here is the Scripture:

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Well of course they didn't die "in the day" and in fact Adam lived for 900 years. And so I am labelled "the person who said God lied." :D
That would be an excellent argument demonstrating that the 6 days of creation and the 7th day of rest in Genesis chapters 1 and 2 were not literal 24 hour days. :)
 
As an engineer I can see that evolution is a fact... it is a tool. I see that it can easily be demonstrated on a computer and can also be demonstrated with bacteria and viruses. Bacteria and viruses can build up an immunity to drugs due to their rapid growth rate under different circumstances. The math behind it is simple... you must roll the dice.

For example, those that roll the right number reproduce, those that roll the wrong number don't. Eventually if there is a mechanism to control the dice roll, then that trait will be selected. The trait is selected by the environment that kills off those who roll the wrong number, and enables those who roll the right number. Inside a computer there are a number of algorithms to generate a pseudo-random number, which is essentially an algorithm that produces entropy that is non-correlated with anything. Even better are electronic circuits that produce white noise by passing a current through a resistor, similar to dropping balls down a beg board to produce a random path, and then that random noise can be digitally sampled and used within an algorithm wherein the numbers are thus entirely uncorrelated. There is no evolution without a source of uncorrelated entropy.

For example: our children. How many consecutive kids come out looking exactly the same? Why is that each kid out of the same two parents has a different genetic code? The machinery of the cells are powerful in producing copy after copy of exactly the same code. Identical twins prove that. But somewhere each sperm or each egg or each combination thereof is somehow different every time. Imagine a person wherein every cell had an entirely different code... it is only the case with the sperm and the egg. Somewhere there is a source of entropy causing different outcomes. There is a selection that is always... different. Evolution can not occur without that entropy.

What is entropy? In science and engineering, the word entropy took a twist when Claud E. Shannon wrote a paper called "A Mathematical Theory of Communication". It is a little different than the word entropy taught in chemistry and physics; however, it is also very similar. Basically the Shannon entropy is a measure of information, and Shannon identified that to maximize a communications channel you have to encode the data to maximize its entropy. Make the information look like pure noise. Entropy on our side of the fence involves probability. An unknown. To maximize the entropy the events or outcomes need to be equiprobable and uncertain. For example if the dice are loaded or biased then each roll presents less information. This understanding has been implemented in communication systems and computer algorithms in the last century to maximize the transfer of information, by taking information and compacting it down into unrecognizable trash. Then on the other side of the communication channel the unrecognizable trash is uncompacted, unfolded back into its original state by an algorithm that is perfectly symmetric to the algorithm that made it. While there is hopefully little rolling of the dice in the process since it can potentially corrupt the communication, the data is made to look as if someone had rolled the dice. The algorithms are deterministic, but the encoder is designed to produce data that appears stochastic and the decoder is designed to take the data that appeared stochastic and put it back into its original form.

"The data was made to look as if someone had rolled the dice." Read that again. I was not talking about evolution, I was talking about a communications channel... but my oh my. A communications channel from who? Who hides their communication so that it looks as if it could have been due to a roll of the dice? Well, we do... inside cell phones, computer communications, satellite communications... but a person doesn't see it because hopefully the receiver has turned the entropy back into a legible <cough> language. The brain has further learned to encode and decode the language into legible <cough> concepts.

Back to evolution... the seed of evolution is a roll of the dice. It is possible to feedback entropy that is non-correlated to seed the changes into a system to test the strength of the change within an environment. It works, but it is slow and painful. It is one way of cracking a code so to speak. It is one way for a mouse to find its way through the maze to locate the cheese. Just kill off every mouse that doesn't succeed, and eventually the mouse will allegedly develop a method of finding the cheese. It is like trying to crack a password by trying random permutations until one is found.

There is a limit to what evolution can do... there is a limit to what can be accomplished by feeding back uncorrelated stochastic information into trial and error. The limit is this: evolution requires that the information of what can succeed, of what will live, already exists in the environment and is available to test. If a genetic code can not be put to the test then evolution is dead. For example when growing bacteria or viruses, if they can not be put to the test against a drug in a host then the little buggers can NOT evolve to overcome the drug. Denied of the ability to try millions of attempts at a secret code to allow for coexistance in the face of a toxic drug, the little buggers can't learn anything about the secret code through trial and error. Evolution is like a hacker, bent on breaking a code that will enable it power. The doctor wants no survivors... either take the full dose of a drug to kill off the whole lot of hackers so that the bacteria will not survive and thus evolve, or don't take the drug and deny them the ability to learn. Similarly if a computer hacker enters the wrong code several times then the gates can be closed to deny the ability to evolve (evolute) an answer.

Anyone disagree? :D
 
Among lifeforms that can reproduce both sexually and asexually, asexual reproduction is employed when the environment is favorable, whereas when there is environment stress, sexual reproduction is employed as a means to 'mix up' the DNA. (In the same manner as cyberpi's not learning/learning point.)
The world of bacteria is quite strange, indeed. Check this out:

Sympathy for the life of bacteria

If you were bacteria:​

  • You have 0.001 times as much DNA as a eukaryotic cell.
  • You live in a medium which has a viscosity about equal to asphalt.
  • You have a wonderful "motor" for swimming. Unfortunately, your motor can only run in two directions and at one speed. In forward, you are propelled in one direction at 30 mph. In reverse your motor makes you turn flips or tumble. You can only do one or the other. You cannot stop.
  • While you can "learn", you divide every twenty minutes and have to restart your education.
  • You can have sex, with males possessing a sexual apparatus for transferring genetic information to receptive females. However, since you are both going 30 mph it is difficult to find each other. Furthermore, if you are male, nature gave you a severe problem. Every time you mate with a female, she turns into a male. In bacteria, "maleness" is an infective venereal disease.
  • Also, at fairly high frequencies, spontaneous mutations cause you to turn into a female.
  • Eukaryotes have enslaved some of your "brethren" to use as energy generating mitochondria and chloroplasts. They are also using you as a tool in a massive effort to understand genetics. The method of recombinant DNA is designed to exploit you for their own good. There is no SPCA to protect you.
  • The last laugh may be yours. You have spent three and a half billion years practicing chemical warfare. Humans thought that antibiotics would end infectious diseases, but the overuse of drugs has resulted in the selection of drug resistant bacteria. They didn't realize that this was only the first battle, and now the war is ready to begin.
  • Humans think this is their era. A more truthful statement would be that we all live in the age of bacteria.
-source-
 
In forward, you are propelled in one direction at 30 mph. In reverse your motor makes you turn flips or tumble. You can only do one or the other. You cannot stop.... However, since you are both going 30 mph it is difficult to find each other.
30 mph?? Must look like a Nascar track in a puddle, or my stomach. 30 mph??
 
As an engineer I can see that evolution is a fact... it is a tool. I see that it can easily be demonstrated on a computer and can also be demonstrated with bacteria and viruses. Bacteria and viruses can build up an immunity to drugs due to their rapid growth rate under different circumstances. The math behind it is simple... you must roll the dice.

For example, those that roll the right number reproduce, those that roll the wrong number don't. Eventually if there is a mechanism to control the dice roll, then that trait will be selected. The trait is selected by the environment that kills off those who roll the wrong number, and enables those who roll the right number. Inside a computer there are a number of algorithms to generate a pseudo-random number, which is essentially an algorithm that produces entropy that is non-correlated with anything. Even better are electronic circuits that produce white noise by passing a current through a resistor, similar to dropping balls down a beg board to produce a random path, and then that random noise can be digitally sampled and used within an algorithm wherein the numbers are thus entirely uncorrelated. There is no evolution without a source of uncorrelated entropy.

For example: our children. How many consecutive kids come out looking exactly the same? Why is that each kid out of the same two parents has a different genetic code? The machinery of the cells are powerful in producing copy after copy of exactly the same code. Identical twins prove that. But somewhere each sperm or each egg or each combination thereof is somehow different every time. Imagine a person wherein every cell had an entirely different code... it is only the case with the sperm and the egg. Somewhere there is a source of entropy causing different outcomes. There is a selection that is always... different. Evolution can not occur without that entropy.

What is entropy? In science and engineering, the word entropy took a twist when Claud E. Shannon wrote a paper called "A Mathematical Theory of Communication". It is a little different than the word entropy taught in chemistry and physics; however, it is also very similar. Basically the Shannon entropy is a measure of information, and Shannon identified that to maximize a communications channel you have to encode the data to maximize its entropy. Make the information look like pure noise. Entropy on our side of the fence involves probability. An unknown. To maximize the entropy the events or outcomes need to be equiprobable and uncertain. For example if the dice are loaded or biased then each roll presents less information. This understanding has been implemented in communication systems and computer algorithms in the last century to maximize the transfer of information, by taking information and compacting it down into unrecognizable trash. Then on the other side of the communication channel the unrecognizable trash is uncompacted, unfolded back into its original state by an algorithm that is perfectly symmetric to the algorithm that made it. While there is hopefully little rolling of the dice in the process since it can potentially corrupt the communication, the data is made to look as if someone had rolled the dice. The algorithms are deterministic, but the encoder is designed to produce data that appears stochastic and the decoder is designed to take the data that appeared stochastic and put it back into its original form.

"The data was made to look as if someone had rolled the dice." Read that again. I was not talking about evolution, I was talking about a communications channel... but my oh my. A communications channel from who? Who hides their communication so that it looks as if it could have been due to a roll of the dice? Well, we do... inside cell phones, computer communications, satellite communications... but a person doesn't see it because hopefully the receiver has turned the entropy back into a legible <cough> language. The brain has further learned to encode and decode the language into legible <cough> concepts.

Back to evolution... the seed of evolution is a roll of the dice. It is possible to feedback entropy that is non-correlated to seed the changes into a system to test the strength of the change within an environment. It works, but it is slow and painful. It is one way of cracking a code so to speak. It is one way for a mouse to find its way through the maze to locate the cheese. Just kill off every mouse that doesn't succeed, and eventually the mouse will allegedly develop a method of finding the cheese. It is like trying to crack a password by trying random permutations until one is found.

There is a limit to what evolution can do... there is a limit to what can be accomplished by feeding back uncorrelated stochastic information into trial and error. The limit is this: evolution requires that the information of what can succeed, of what will live, already exists in the environment and is available to test. If a genetic code can not be put to the test then evolution is dead. For example when growing bacteria or viruses, if they can not be put to the test against a drug in a host then the little buggers can NOT evolve to overcome the drug. Denied of the ability to try millions of attempts at a secret code to allow for coexistance in the face of a toxic drug, the little buggers can't learn anything about the secret code through trial and error. Evolution is like a hacker, bent on breaking a code that will enable it power. The doctor wants no survivors... either take the full dose of a drug to kill off the whole lot of hackers so that the bacteria will not survive and thus evolve, or don't take the drug and deny them the ability to learn. Similarly if a computer hacker enters the wrong code several times then the gates can be closed to deny the ability to evolve (evolute) an answer.

Anyone disagree? :D

An interesting read. Thank you!:)

What you're saying would certainly apply to an AI world where bias has to be artificially scrubbed to maintain the stochastic effect. But don't forget that this is done to artificially approximate entropic processes which occur naturally in the non artificial world. Evolution doesn't need a randomness generator, that occurs naturally.

Chris
 
I have a problem here. Has "Intelligent Design" thru this whole conversation been in line with the original posters definition that God directed Evolution? Im afraid that is not correct. Intelligent Design is simply that. Design by Intelligence. It includes a number of (fairly equally extreme) theories which do not include God at all. To put it in terms that evolutionists can relate to... if Intelligent Design were Mammals, then theories involving God would be herbivores, theories involving Creationists would be Equids (horses and such), and the new earth literal word of the bible creationists would be mules. Please dont focus on a smaller group as being representative of the much larger groups.

Disclaimer: Im all for evolution. But Im also for clarity, especially when arguing against something.
 
So am I, if there is life there is bacteria, there never has been and never will be an age when bacteria are not the most fundamentally important organisms.
 
Seen the news about RNA and DNA being delivered to Earth 4 billion years ago by meteor? Now there's a postal service. God would only use the best. :)

s.
 
An interesting read. Thank you!:)

What you're saying would certainly apply to an AI world where bias has to be artificially scrubbed to maintain the stochastic effect. But don't forget that this is done to artificially approximate entropic processes which occur naturally in the non artificial world. Evolution doesn't need a randomness generator, that occurs naturally.

Chris
Randomness is in the mind of the beholder.
 
Back
Top