death is swallowed up

[aburaees]

So if God was in Paradise with Adam, what then is stopping him from being in Paradise with those he chooses to put there?

Man's cheif end is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. To live any other way is to have a vain and wasted existance.

What Bible verse is that?

Anyway, I ask again why does it suck? In fact I'll rephrase...

If God chooses to put some people in Paradise, why does it suck? Shouldn't we be grateful for what God gives us? Really, if you got Paradise instead of Heaven - would you really feel so left out? Would you actually desire MORE than what God has put aside for you? Be careful answering this one, I know ONE other character who wanted MORE - guess what his name is!

According to acts 2, things are going exactly to the way God planed things now. Man isnt sovereign over God and God's plan wasnt put on hold or thwarted by man. Thats a sad thing to believe. Jesus is the "lamb slain 'before' the foundation of the world." Moreover, He came in the "fullness of time" to do what He knew He had to do before the worlds were made?.

I agree, his original plan is still being carried out, and that involves having mankind populate and subdue the Earth for eternity. In the meantime, he has been issued a challenge by Satan and mankind is interested in seeing the results, so Eden will have to wait.

God knows all - He's that Huge and Powerful and Amazing, and Glorious, etc. By the way, are you a J. Witness?

Excellent, anything less than that wouldn't be God. And no I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, but for the purpose of discussing Christianity I am interested in their views aswell as yours.

 

[Silas]

aburaees

So if God was in Paradise with Adam, what then is stopping him from being in Paradise with those he chooses to put there?

I dont know? Im asking you. So God is going to be in pradise with us? Heaven without God isnt Heaven to me. "Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire besides thee." Psalm 73:25.

What Bible verse is that?

Well sir, you have to take what I said in context. I said:

"Man's cheif end is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. To live any other way is to have a vain and wasted existance."

Since scripture tell us that we are made for His glory and is meant to enjoy him forever (Isa. 43:6-7 and John 17:3), living any other way and not under that purpose is vain and wasted.

Anyway, I ask again why does it suck? In fact I'll rephrase...If God chooses to put some people in Paradise, why does it suck?

It sucks because the Uncreated Creator God who created me and saved me from a life of sin by sending His infinitely precious Son who shared eternity with Him, to suffer and die in my stead, will not be there that I may worship him face to face and sing songs of thanksgiving. If you could have pradise without God there, Im sorry to say you've never had an encounter with Him - your god would be an idol.

Shouldn't we be grateful for what God gives us?

When I was serving an idol god, I heard the gospel and the true God opened my eyes, stripped me of self-righteousness, and I saw my sin and understood my need for Jesus. I was amazed that Jesus would die for a wretch like me, when I wouldnt even admit I was in need of a Savior. I saw that God called me from the foundations of the world to be transformed into the image of His Son that I may be with Him forever. For that, I am infinitely greatful! In fact, the word "greatful" is an understatement.

Really, if you got Paradise instead of Heaven - would you really feel so left out?

Seriously, how could you even dream of living any other place than with God. You would be happy with that? Please look at yourself in light of God's Ten Commandments and see that in God's eyes (apart from Christ - the Real Jesus, you are a murderer and adulterer because you looked with lust and have hated people in your past). Let the weight of the Law crush you and then call out to the Savior to save you and He will!

Would you actually desire MORE than what God has put aside for you? Be careful answering this one, I know ONE other character who wanted MORE - guess what his name is!

Thats a nonsensical question and based from a wrong premise and wrong theology. First of all, God's desier is for His people to be where He is. Therefore, since that is what He wants, I am content with that!

I agree, his original plan is still being carried out, and that involves having mankind populate and subdue the Earth for eternity. In the meantime, he has been issued a challenge by Satan and mankind is interested in seeing the results, so Eden will have to wait.

This is why doctrine and theology is SOOO important, Chrisitans. This world has NOTHING to do with Satan, but everything with God. Satan is nothing to God. He cant even do his bidding without premission! God is not making a bet with the devil to see who will choose Him, God is in TOTAL Control. Your view on the God of the Bible is way too Human and way to Small. I know if you seek God and let the Bible alone interprete the Bible, you will know God!

 

[aburaees]

I dont know? Im asking you. So God is going to be in pradise with us? Heaven without God isnt Heaven to me. "Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire besides thee." Psalm 73:25.

Tell me Terrence, are Paradise and Heaven two different places, or are they the same place?

Well sir, you have to take what I said in context. I said:

"Man's cheif end is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. To live any other way is to have a vain and wasted existance."

Since scripture tell us that we are made for His glory and is meant to enjoy him forever (Isa. 43:6-7 and John 17:3), living any other way and not under that purpose is vain and wasted.

Why then Terrence did God put Adam and Eve in Eden? Can not God's will be done on Earth also as in Heaven?

It sucks because the Uncreated Creator God who created me and saved me from a life of sin by sending His infinitely precious Son who shared eternity with Him, to suffer and die in my stead, will not be there that I may worship him face to face and sing songs of thanksgiving. If you could have pradise without God there, Im sorry to say you've never had an encounter with Him - your god would be an idol.

Good. But if God puts you in Paradise will you be grateful or ungrateful? None of us know how good Paradise will be with or without being able to see God's face.

When I was serving an idol god, I heard the gospel and the true God opened my eyes, stripped me of self-righteousness, and I saw my sin and understood my need for Jesus. I was amazed that Jesus would die for a wretch like me, when I wouldnt even admit I was in need of a Savior. I saw that God called me from the foundations of the world to be transformed into the image of His Son that I may be with Him forever. For that, I am infinitely greatful! In fact, the word "greatful" is an understatement.

Good.

Seriously, how could you even dream of living any other place than with God. You would be happy with that? Please look at yourself in light of God's Ten Commandments and see that in God's eyes (apart from Christ - the Real Jesus, you are a murderer and adulterer because you looked with lust and have hated people in your past). Let the weight of the Law crush you and then call out to the Savior to save you and He will!

Again, none of us know how good Paradise will be with or without being able to see God's face. Seriously I DON'T KNOW what it will be like... but surely anything God has set aside for his sheep will be good enough for them, and I'm sure he can make his sheep happy without even showing them his face.

Thats a nonsensical question and based from a wrong premise and wrong theology.

Says you!

First of all, God's desier is for His people to be where He is. Therefore, since that is what He wants, I am content with that!

So why did God put Adam and Even in Eden? What then is the use for a new Heaven AND A NEW EARTH? Do you even believe there will be a new Earth?

This is why doctrine and theology is SOOO important, Chrisitans. This world has NOTHING to do with Satan, but everything with God. Satan is nothing to God. He cant even do his bidding without premission! God is not making a bet with the devil to see who will choose Him, God is in TOTAL Control.

Isn't Satan the god of this system of things? True, God has allowed Satan to do everything that Satan has ever done. Satan did indeed challenge God, and this is his proving ground, but we all know he will fail.

Your view on the God of the Bible is way too Human and way to Small. I know if you seek God and let the Bible alone interprete the Bible, you will know God!

Everyone's view of God is too Human, even you can't completely comprehend God in your limited Human state. Do you actually think any of us desire to interpret any other way than the correct way - or is that part of our being a slave to sin, also being a slave to desire to interpret the Bible incorrectly??

 

[Silas]

aburaees

Tell me Terrence, are Paradise and Heaven two different places, or are they the same place?

Call me Proph 1 or knowledge or Conscience, or Sincere, or Ambassador, and leave Terrence for my mother. Now as for your question: Again, it is a nonsensical question because a Heaven without God isnt paradise.

Why then Terrence did God put Adam and Eve in Eden? Can not God's will be done on Earth also as in Heaven?

God's purpose in creating man was to be glorified. He foreknew they would sin and foreordained that Christ would be glorified in His forgiveness of men (Acts 2:22-23)

Good. But if God puts you in Paradise will you be grateful or ungrateful? None of us know how good Paradise will be with or without being able to see God's face.

Again, wrong question based from a wrong premise and not grounded in scripture. Therefore I cannot answer.

Again, none of us know how good Paradise will be with or without being able to see God's face. Seriously I DON'T KNOW what it will be like... but surely anything God has set aside for his sheep will be good enough for them, and I'm sure he can make his sheep happy without even showing them his face.

Thats what Im trying to tell you: God's dwelling place is going to be with man. Those in Christ will be in the presence of God and we will KNOW Him and Be with Him forever. That is going to be beyond words. whoa!

So why did God put Adam and Even in Eden? What then is the use for a new Heaven AND A NEW EARTH? Do you even believe there will be a new Earth?

God's reason for putting man in the garden was to show that He is not the author of sin. He knew they would sin and therefore Had in mind the scarifice before the worlds were. Moreover, because He foreknew they would sin, He foreordained His plan of salvation and His glorious return when He will fix everything and set up a new Heaven and New earth. Life is all about God - He's revealing Himself in History or better yet, His Story, to His creation. God is in control and isnt suprised by anything that goes on because from the foudation of the world, He foreordained things to go as they are now. Thats why He promises that all things will work for the good to all those who love Godf (Romans 8:28).

Isn't Satan the god of this system of things? True, God has allowed Satan to do everything that Satan has ever done. Satan did indeed challenge God, and this is his proving ground, but we all know he will fail.

Satan only did what God allowed Him to do. Imagine the finte created being thinking he could challenge the Uncreated Creator whos wisdom is from every lasting to ever lasting? Thats funny. (Psa. 2 comes to mind).

Everyone's view of God is too Human, even you can't completely comprehend God in your limited Human state.

Exactly! Thats why I let scripture paint my picture of who God is.

Do you actually think any of us desire to interpret any other way than the correct way - or is that part of our being a slave to sin, also being a slave to desire to interpret the Bible incorrectly??

Actually, I know that believers have a desier to study God's word. Its a blessing that comes from the God who birth them. But, not everyone goes deep into the word. Some actually get content and others go by what others say (like me sometimes).

 

[aburaees]

I'm having some sticking-points here with you, I know you're trying, so I'll return the favour...

Again, it is a nonsensical question because a Heaven without God isnt paradise.

Paradise is Biblical.
Heaven is Biblical.
What is the difference between the two?
I have been of the opinion that they are separate places, are you telling me that they are one and the same?

What then is the use for a new Heaven AND A NEW EARTH? Do you even believe there will be a new Earth?

A new Heaven is Biblical.
A new Earth is Biblical.
I have been of the opinion that the new Earth will come about after mankind has been judged etc.
What is this new Earth in which the tent of God is with mankind?
Who will be in this new Earth?

Do you see where I'm coming from? There are those who will be in the new Heaven, yet others will be in the new Earth. Isn't that Biblical?

 

[Silas]

aburaees

I'm having some sticking-points here with you, I know you're trying, so I'll return the favour...
Paradise is Biblical.
Heaven is Biblical.
What is the difference between the two?
I have been of the opinion that they are separate places, are you telling me that they are one and the same?

Yeah, in the Bible they're the same. In the paradise described in the book of Gen. God walked with man.

A new Heaven is Biblical.
A new Earth is Biblical.
I have been of the opinion that the new Earth will come about after mankind has been judged etc.

I agree with that!

What is this new Earth in which the tent of God is with mankind?
Who will be in this new Earth?

God and man (like in the garden in the book of Gen.).

Do you see where I'm coming from? There are those who will be in the new Heaven, yet others will be in the new Earth. Isn't that Biblical?

No. The New Heaven will be "on" earth. Thats whats the scriptures teach.

 

[aburaees]

aburaees

I'm having some sticking-points here with you, I know you're trying, so I'll return the favour...
Paradise is Biblical.
Heaven is Biblical.
What is the difference between the two?
I have been of the opinion that they are separate places, are you telling me that they are one and the same?

Yeah, in the Bible they're the same. In the paradise described in the book of Gen. God walked with man.

A new Heaven is Biblical.
A new Earth is Biblical.
I have been of the opinion that the new Earth will come about after mankind has been judged etc.

I agree with that!

What is this new Earth in which the tent of God is with mankind?
Who will be in this new Earth?

God and man (like in the garden in the book of Gen.).

Do you see where I'm coming from? There are those who will be in the new Heaven, yet others will be in the new Earth. Isn't that Biblical?

No. The New Heaven will be "on" earth. Thats whats the scriptures teach.

Ok, I'm beginning to understand you now Silas.

So this new Heaven AND new Earth are one and the same place? Just like Heaven and Paradise are one and the same place...

You see, the JW position is that the residents of the New Heaven or New Jerusalem will be the 144,000 ruling as kings alongside Christ. The residents of the New Earth (Paradise) will be the rest of God's sheep, and God will be with them.

 

[Silas]

Ok, I'm beginning to understand you now Silas.

So this new Heaven AND new Earth are one and the same place? Just like Heaven and Paradise are one and the same place...

You see, the JW position is that the residents of the New Heaven or New Jerusalem will be the 144,000 ruling as kings alongside Christ. The residents of the New Earth (Paradise) will be the rest of God's sheep, and God will be with them.

Yeah, the New Heaven and New Earth is the same place. I know how JWs understand the scripture and I'm sorry to say that its wrong (no offense). Just a basic read will show that God's people will be with Him forever. We'll be co-heirs with Christ if we are born again. Oh what pleasure God has in store for all those who love Him!!

 

[aburaees]

Yeah, the New Heaven and New Earth is the same place. I know how JWs understand the scripture and I'm sorry to say that its wrong (no offense). Just a basic read will show that God's people will be with Him forever. We'll be co-heirs with Christ if we are born again. Oh what pleasure God has in store for all those who love Him!!

How then do you understand the number of 144,000? Is it a literal number or a symbolic number?

I think you'll find that the JWs will agree with you in that God's people will be with him forever. They just see a two groups of people fulfilling two functional capacities - the little crowd (144,000 elect, co-rulers) and the great crowd (that no man can number, from all tribes and nations, who will inhabit the Earth).

 

[Silas]

How then do you understand the number of 144,000? Is it a literal number or a symbolic number?

I think you'll find that the JWs will agree with you in that God's people will be with him forever. They just see a two groups of people fulfilling two functional capacities - the little crowd (144,000 elect, co-rulers) and the great crowd (that no man can number, from all tribes and nations, who will inhabit the Earth).

I want to say "symbolic" but I dont know because I havent studied that subject. So rather than speaking about something I dont know, I'll have to shut up on this issue. I will say this, however. The J bubs are very envangelistic and are faithful in witnessing probably more than any other religous group. Unfortunately, the message is full of desceptions and false doctrines. I pray that God opens their eyes and lead them to Christ.

 

[mee]

The J bubs are very envangelistic and are faithful in witnessing probably more than any other religous group. Unfortunately, the message is full of desceptions and false doctrines.

Because my eyes are no longer pasted togeather, but open to the pure word of God ,i can now see that the JW are sticking very faithfully to the pure word of God the bible . and i can also see that they have cast off the manmade false doctrines of man , revelation 18;4 which means that they are nolonger contaminated with false religion, and they have allowed Jehovah God to take them in , and then they have been blessed by Jehovah and been given much understanding about bible prophecy and much insight . Danial 12;4and then these faithful ones can feed the other sheep with the spiritual food that is being given to them. and the reason that JW are a worldwide people preaching in unity, is because Jehovah can accomplish whatever he wills , and when Jehovahs spirit or active force is behind a work it will be sucessfull.even under opposition.

 

[Quahom1]

Because my eyes are no longer pasted togeather, but open to the pure word of God ,i can now see that the JW are sticking very faithfully to the pure word of God the bible . and i can also see that they have cast off the manmade false doctrines of man , revelation 18;4 which means that they are nolonger contaminated with false religion, and they have allowed Jehovah God to take them in , and then they have been blessed by Jehovah and been given much understanding about bible prophecy and much insight . Danial 12;4and then these faithful ones can feed the other sheep with the spiritual food that is being given to them. and the reason that JW are a worldwide people preaching in unity, is because Jehovah can accomplish whatever he wills , and when Jehovahs spirit or active force is behind a work it will be sucessfull.even under opposition.

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face."—1 Corinthians 13:12.

We don't see anything clearly, none of us. That too is biblical.
​

 

[Faithfulservant]

I want to say "symbolic" but I dont know because I havent studied that subject. So rather than speaking about something I dont know, I'll have to shut up on this issue. I will say this, however. The J bubs are very envangelistic and are faithful in witnessing probably more than any other religous group. Unfortunately, the message is full of desceptions and false doctrines. I pray that God opens their eyes and lead them to Christ.

The end-time prophetic belief is that the 144,000 are literal amount of Jewish Christians that evangalize the world during the tribulation..

 

[Quahom1]

The end-time prophetic belief is that the 144,000 are literal amount of Jewish Christians that evangalize the world during the tribulation..

Christians, perhaps. But only 12,000 are from the tribe of Judah. The remaining 132,000 are from the remaining eleven tribes of Israel. I think that means they will come from all corners of the earth, and will represent the whole of mankind.

Which would be fitting indeed.

v/r

Joshua

 

[mee]

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face."—1 Corinthians 13:12.​

We don't see anything clearly, none of us. That too is biblical.​

[/quote yes it was hazy, the early christians had as much understanding at that time as they needed . the annointed christians,
including the apostle Paul himself, had not been led by holy spirit to a complete knowledge of all truth. Their knowledge was still only partial, to the extent that God had given them understanding up to that time. But it was sufficient for the needs they then had.—1 Cor. 13:9, 10, 12.
So we can see that, both with regard to Jehovah’s faithful servants in pre-Christian times and the congregation of anointed Christians of the first century of our Common Era, without exception all had incomplete knowledge and understanding. They had to continue to make progress, readjusting their understanding as they observed and experienced the gradual outworking of Jehovah’s purposes. For them, the path of the righteous ones has indeed been like ‘a bright light that gets ever lighter and lighter.’ (Prov. 4:18) As the light increased, they grew in knowledge, discerning more fully the grand truths that Jehovah kept revealing to them.
about the year 64 C.E., about 9 years later what did Peter write his fellow Christians? "Consequently we have the prophetic word made more sure; and you are doing well in paying attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and a daystar rises, in your hearts." (2 Pet. 1:16-21) So Christians still needed to search the Scriptures, giving much attention to the prophetic word, which would be like a lamp shining in a dark place. This they must continue to do clear down to the time when anointed Christians would experience their reward at the glorious revelation of Jesus Christ. but now in the time of the end Jesus is feeding his faithful ones matthew 24;45-47 its all happening the light keeps flashing up for the righteoues one
"Light itself has flashed up for the righteous one, and rejoicing even for the ones upright in heart."—PSALM 97:11.

 

[mee]

The end-time prophetic belief is that the 144,000 are literal amount of Jewish Christians that evangalize the world during the tribulation..

That fleshly distinctions no longer count with God is clear from Galatians 3:28, where we read: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus." And at Galatians 6:16 this composite body of believers, both Jews and non-Jews, is called the "Israel of God

 

[Faithfulservant]

Christians, perhaps. But only 12,000 are from the tribe of Judah. The remaining 132,000 are from the remaining eleven tribes of Israel. I think that means they will come from all corners of the earth, and will represent the whole of mankind.

Which would be fitting indeed.

v/r

Joshua

yes lol sorry thats what I get for posting before my cup of coffee haha

 

[Faithfulservant]

That fleshly distinctions no longer count with God is clear from Galatians 3:28, where we read: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus." And at Galatians 6:16 this composite body of believers, both Jews and non-Jews, is called the "Israel of God

I love you mee you are a good and loyal JW

 

[Quahom1]

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face."—1 Corinthians 13:12.​

We don't see anything clearly, none of us. That too is biblical.​

[/quote yes it was hazy, the early christians had as much understanding at that time as they needed . the annointed christians,
including the apostle Paul himself, had not been led by holy spirit to a complete knowledge of all truth. Their knowledge was still only partial, to the extent that God had given them understanding up to that time. But it was sufficient for the needs they then had.—1 Cor. 13:9, 10, 12.
So we can see that, both with regard to Jehovah’s faithful servants in pre-Christian times and the congregation of anointed Christians of the first century of our Common Era, without exception all had incomplete knowledge and understanding. They had to continue to make progress, readjusting their understanding as they observed and experienced the gradual outworking of Jehovah’s purposes. For them, the path of the righteous ones has indeed been like ‘a bright light that gets ever lighter and lighter.’ (Prov. 4:18) As the light increased, they grew in knowledge, discerning more fully the grand truths that Jehovah kept revealing to them.
about the year 64 C.E., about 9 years later what did Peter write his fellow Christians? "Consequently we have the prophetic word made more sure; and you are doing well in paying attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and a daystar rises, in your hearts." (2 Pet. 1:16-21) So Christians still needed to search the Scriptures, giving much attention to the prophetic word, which would be like a lamp shining in a dark place. This they must continue to do clear down to the time when anointed Christians would experience their reward at the glorious revelation of Jesus Christ. but now in the time of the end Jesus is feeding his faithful ones matthew 24;45-47 its all happening the light keeps flashing up for the righteoues one
"Light itself has flashed up for the righteous one, and rejoicing even for the ones upright in heart."—PSALM 97:11.

Afraid it doesn't work that way Mee. See the Bible is supposed to be out of time (not subject to time). Which means it is as pertenant today as it was yesterday, as it will be tomorrow. As long as we are on earth in this life, we do not see clearly. Only when we meet God, is everything become clear. You can't have it both ways. So, I opine everyone is still looking through glass darkly...even you.

v/r

Joshua

 

[Quahom1]

That fleshly distinctions no longer count with God is clear from Galatians 3:28, where we read: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one person in union with Christ Jesus." And at Galatians 6:16 this composite body of believers, both Jews and non-Jews, is called the "Israel of God

Perhaps because the 11 remaining tribes have scattered across the earth, hence there is neither Greek nor Jew...