Homosexuals

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Postmaster!

One could say on the psychological aspect the homosapien mind is one of exploration, so if they don’t have the right guidance they will explore pointless avenues even in sexuality.

And perhaps, (just perhaps), this is one of the "points" of religious teaching(s). Guidance.

But saying that, homosexuality can be seen in all kinds of other mammals too. Scientists have recently have found evidence that smell plays a big part in choosing a partner, if nature has geared us up correctly then we wouldnt be smelling out same sex.

Actually, the study of pheromones (sp?) has been around for awhile now. And nature is a fickle mistress...if nature "geared us correctly," we wouldn't have disease either.

To all those that choose to say homosexuality is purely physiological, what would you call a hermaphrodite to be? And doesn’t this show that nature can mix and match female and male genes?

Actually, I think a hermaphrodite has a legitimate position to argue from. Physiology would be a pretty good indicator of interior brain construction. Where the argument gets dicey, is those who claim interior brain construction without external evidence to show. And then enters the "nurture" part of the equation...

Maybe its a disability.

Oh boy! Would that ever open a huge can of worms...I can see it now, social security disability payments from the government for sexual orientation...

 

[juantoo3]

eh! you smiling at me...

Chalk it up to mixed massages.

 

[Postmaster]

In my school days whenever a kid came across abit feminine he was labelled gay and taunted by it. The guys taunted, I noticed had a great way with the women too, they seemed to be trusted even to the point of letting them get intimate which always seemed to last very short term, whats all that about? And my uncle who seems to fit in the category and also kind of the black sheep of the family has numerous God children. Kind of like Elton John. Maybe it’s a personality aspect a man is blessed with, and society makes them believe it’s a curse and with abit of depression can make them believe they are homosexuals?

As for women I can't get my head round it.

 

[cavalier]

It really seems like CR is obsessed by homosexulity, there are threads on the issue at every turn.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Cavalier!

It really seems like CR is obsessed by homosexulity, there are threads on the issue at every turn.

Hmmm, almost as many threads as the evolution / creation debate, but with nowhere near the same degree of substance...

 

[chakraman]

many happy returns of the day to you also juantoo3..

all boys schools possibly encourage homosexuality..not actively of course , but as a result of enviroment..
i feel there must be some degree of proclivity though, as personally speaking enviroment couldn't effect me..
i've been propositioned by half a dozen or so men in the past, which i dont mind; they seem to find it difficult to believe you can be totally hetero...

 

[cavalier]

all boys schools possibly encourage homosexuality..not actively of course , but as a result of enviroment..

I went to an all boys school, it was the most absurdly homophobic environment I have ever experienced. I only knew of one kid who came out whlie at the school, and he was routinely beaten up. Who knows though, maybe his attackers rage was fueled by latent homosexual desires to have close physical contact with another male.

While the all-boy environment affected how I saw girls and women, strange creatures who should be idolised, I don't think it affected how I saw other members of my sex.

i feel there must be some degree of proclivity though, as personally speaking enviroment couldn't effect me..

Not even a little bit?

 

[chakraman]

Not even a little bit?

hello cavalier
speak for yourself!!!

as for all boys i'm recounting a firends experience of boarding school which i think is different, though of course this could be an isolated experience.

i think the point i'm making is unnatural environments dont help. regards j

 

[17th Angel]

I only knew of one kid who came out whlie at the school, and he was routinely beaten up. Who knows though, maybe his attackers rage was fueled by latent homosexual desires to have close physical contact with another male.

Cav, you're not one of those are you? At school I used to beat up and make fun of a homosexual... And I got told by his "friend" that I only picked on him and made jokes about him because, I was gay? lol..... It's like the child taunt "I know you are, you said you are, but what am I?" It makes no sense, I picked on him and laughed at him, not because I was gay or wanted to be gay, but because I had hatred for him, I felt he didn't belong and I wished his demise. I was far from any thought of being like him. I think if someone is homophobic it has nothing to do with them being gay.... It's like I say I hate blacks, I want to discriminate and pick them out... Does that mean I am black? Of course not... I simply have a grudge for them...

-post edit-
That was an EXAMPLE, I have nothing agaisnt any race.

 

[wil]

Cav, you're not one of those are you? At school I used to beat up and make fun of a homosexual... And I got told by his "friend" that I only picked on him and made jokes about him because, I was gay? lol..... It's like the child taunt "I know you are, you said you are, but what am I?" It makes no sense, I picked on him and laughed at him, not because I was gay or wanted to be gay, but because I had hatred for him, I felt he didn't belong and I wished his demise. I was far from any thought of being like him. I think if someone is homophobic it has nothing to do with them being gay.... It's like I say I hate blacks, I want to discriminate and pick them out... Does that mean I am black? Of course not... I simply have a grudge for them...

-post edit-
That was an EXAMPLE, I have nothing agaisnt any race.

How do you feel today about how you reacted then?

 

[17th Angel]

How do I feel today? Well, I was just a kid, I did far worse, I don't -tend- to act in a psychotic/aggressive manner now-a-days. But, I guess in some ways gay or not I was still, just simply not a nice kid to anyone... Just the homosexual boy obviously got thrown gay insults and jokes...

But if you mean do I still feel hatred for gays? No but, I will avoid them. That I believe is my choice.. "Stay out of my face, and I'll stay out of yours." Kinda thing going on. I just wanted to bring up the point that "lashing out" at homosexuals is not a homosexual frustation thing from the attacker... I did it plainly cause I didn't like him...

 

[wil]

I sure acted like a kid when I was a kid. I look at the growth curve...seeing where I am now in relation to 10, 20, 30 years ago and more. And wonder how much more growth I'll see in the next 10, 20, 30 years.

Looking back then at now, saying...yeah, I sure was immature...

 

[17th Angel]

I sure acted like a kid when I was a kid. I look at the growth curve...seeing where I am now in relation to 10, 20, 30 years ago and more. And wonder how much more growth I'll see in the next 10, 20, 30 years.

Looking back then at now, saying...yeah, I sure was immature...

I just think our mind set, changes... were we really immature 10 20 30 40 years back? Or have we just changed our set of beliefs, values or changed to another phase. Again we can see this with not just ourselves but with our goverments and countries... The view of homosexuals 10 20 30 years back was different and I am sure in 10 20 30 years ahead it will change.

 

[cavalier]

Cav, you're not one of those are you?

No, and I understand why you ask. I think it's a bit ridiculous how some people think that any ill-feeling towards a homosexual must be based on homphobia.
However, I do think that in my all boys school some/a lot of the exaggerated hostility towards homosexuality was based on homophobia. I guess we all knew that kids from other schools made jokes about all the kids at our school being gay. That leads to a certain level of discomfort, there was a desire to prove to ourselves that we were not gay, and a desire to prove it to our friends. We also wanted to send out a message to anyone who might be a homosexual, that we were not interested.

The bit that you quoted me on though, was actually a little tongue-in-cheek. I mean, what I wrote is possible and was probably true for 1 or 2 kids. However to suggest that everyone who dislikes, or as a kid bullies homosexuals, does so because they secretly burn with homosexual desire is absurd.

 

[cavalier]

hello cavalier
speak for yourself!!!

I don't mean, at least not necessarily, that being around homosexuals has made you consider orientation. Just that I wonder whether you have really never, in any situation, been influenced by your environment.

 

[17th Angel]

Awesome, I did think that would be your opinon, just struck me as odd that maybe you did believe all hostility to a homosexual makes the attacker a secret closet homosexual lol.... Sorry I didn't catch on sometimes it is hard to "read" text you know...

 

[cavalier]

Awesome, I did think that would be your opinon, just struck me as odd that maybe you did believe all hostility to a homosexual makes the attacker a secret closet homosexual lol.... Sorry I didn't catch on sometimes it is hard to "read" text you know...

No worries. I'm happy you asked.

 

[chakraman]

I don't mean, at least not necessarily, that being around homosexuals has made you consider orientation. Just that I wonder whether you have really never, in any situation, been influenced by your environment.

got you now, like 17 th said text is not always as straightforward as speach. lets face it its not a subject anyone wants to be miconstrued on. even choice of words has to be thought out; i decided against hard in favour of difficult to explain a point, also didnt use the word "bones".

as for environment; i am sculpted by it; i think cultural, religious and domestic environment make people what they are. for me they can be divisive and need overcoming or understanding. like i said on another post; brought up in a different environment/country i may point the finger elsewhere or behave differently with alternate values that are acceptabl there. jase...

 

[17th Angel]

In some ways I could agree....

Oh come on! Act all "lah de dah" It's the "in" thing...

Hmm.. Yeah I can see that effecting some.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Maybe its a disability.

Sigh. Statements like this make me want to cry or scream. They force me to laugh.

"If homosexuality is a disease, let's call in queer to work. 'Hello, can't work today, still queer.'" - Stephanie Strong
I like juantoo3's idea about social security disability payments.

Imagine this thread about any other group: "Are people born fat? Do fat people serve a purpose in society? I'm asking from a scientific point of view." "Are people born black? Do black people serve a purpose in society? I'm asking from a scientific point of view." "Are people born Christian? Do Christian people serve a purpose in society? I'm asking from a scientific point of view."

I can state with 100% certainty that I was born gay. I certainly didn't want these feelings, nor was I curious about them, nor did I ask for them. In fact, I prayed to Jesus every night between the ages of 11 and 18 to take these feelings away from me, to not let me be gay, to make me straight.
Every other homosexual I have talked with on the subject, male or female, also believes s/he was born gay.

Where the argument gets dicey, is those who claim interior brain construction without external evidence to show.

juan, I'm not sure what you mean by this statement. Are you referring to transsexuals (men "born inside women's bodies" or vice versa)? That is a very different thing than homosexuality. Homosexuality has nothing to do with what sex you want to be, it has to do with what sex you want to be with. Transsexuals can be either gay or straight. In fact, I know a male-to-female transsexual who is lesbian. Born in a male body, attracted to women and always has been, yet feels extremely uncomfortable in a male body and feels much happier as a woman. (I'm not sure I understand it either, but that's because I can't compare anything in my own life to her experiences. But I'm trying.)
I think I have plenty of external evidence to back up my claims of interior brain construction - I claim to have the brain of a woman who is homosexual. Oh, look at that - I am a woman and I have a relationship with a woman.

juan, you have a point to an extent - I don't really care about the scientific evidence in that I know what my own reality is. And the scientific evidence on either side isn't going to make people stop hating me, or calling me names, or telling me I'm not welcome in their house of worship, or refusing to let me teach their children, or denying my partner any say in my medical treatment, or even beating me up.

"Other people get money for being married; they get health benefits for being married; they get money for having children. When we want to be able to kiss and hold hands on the street without being beat up, suddenly we're asking for special rights." - Mark Fisher
"There is this illusion that homosexuals only have sex and heterosexuals fall in love." - Boy George

When I see how far we have to come even to the point of being accepted as fully human, first I get furious, then I want to weep, and finally I just get tired.