M
mee
Guest
yes i am quite happy to say that JW thoughts are in line with the bible teachings in it . but we do not take on the thoughts of the majority .
Christ Jesus spoke of a ‘broad and spacious way’ and of a ‘narrow and cramped way,’ and he told what was at stake: "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."—Matthew 7:13, 14. not many stick to true bible teachings , but many have been led along to seriously be on the wrong road.manmade thoughts not based on accurate bible knowledge lead to us being on the wrong road.keeping focused on bible teachings with out manmade teachings attached is the way to go.
M
mee
Guest
who does Jesus think he is? this is what the bible teaches about Jesus , so Jesus would be in agreement with the following things
Jesus
Definition: The only-begotten Son of God, the only Son produced by Jehovah alone. This Son is the firstborn of all creation. By means of him all other things in heaven and on earth were created. He is the second-greatest personage in the universe. It is this Son whom Jehovah sent to the earth to give his life as a ransom for mankind, thus opening the way to eternal life for those of Adam’s offspring who would exercise faith. This same Son, restored to heavenly glory, now rules as King, with authority to destroy all the wicked and to carry out his Father’s original purpose for the earth. The Hebrew form of the name Jesus means "Jehovah Is Salvation"; Christ is the equivalent of the Hebrew Ma·shi´ach (Messiah), meaning "Anointed One."...........so seriously... this is what Jesus thinks he is .
Jesus
Christ
Definition: The only-begotten Son of God, the only Son produced by Jehovah alone. This Son is the firstborn of all creation. By means of him all other things in heaven and on earth were created. He is the second-greatest personage in the universe. It is this Son whom Jehovah sent to the earth to give his life as a ransom for mankind, thus opening the way to eternal life for those of Adam’s offspring who would exercise faith. This same Son, restored to heavenly glory, now rules as King, with authority to destroy all the wicked and to carry out his Father’s original purpose for the earth. The Hebrew form of the name Jesus means "Jehovah Is Salvation"; Christ is the equivalent of the Hebrew Ma·shi´ach (Messiah), meaning "Anointed One."...........so seriously... this is what Jesus thinks he is .
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Silas
Guest
OK, I tried to be fair to the JWs and read the Bible as one of them. Here's what I got:
For God so loved the world that He gave one of His angels up that whosoever confesses with his mouth that "Michael is an angel and Satan's brother," could be one of His disicples. And so Michael said, "I go to prepare a place for you and will be back in 1914, that where I am, you may be as well. And lo, I am with you, even until World War 2." Then the witnesses of Michael boldly proclamed the news of their Father's kingdom with failed prophecies after failed prophecies. And many signs were shown of them. They laid hands on the sick and said, "you shall have no medicine, because it is evil." In those days, many followed them and their number was added daily. Persecuation was a daily trail for the witnesses of Michael, for they would get the door slammed in their faces almost every morning for waking people up and for filling people's mail boxes with their "awake" magazines. So they shook the dust off of their feet and pressed on. They came upon a man who said, "how shall I entered the kindom of Heaven" and they replied, "unless you have witnessed of Jehovah's kingdom, you shall not enter into the Kindom of Heaven." Therefore, many departed from them and followed them no more. Once a man asked of them, "God sirs, how shall I enter Heaven." They replied, "You do well to call us good, for we are not like the sinners who beat upon their beast sayiing 'forgive me a sinner,' but are instead outstanding and moral people. Follow us and you will enter the kingdom." Many followed on that day. Then they came upon a city where a woman was being stoned for adultery and said, "give me the first stone, for I will cast it." And so they did. For, they said, "only the Jehoavah's witnesses will inherit the earth and the feilds therefore." And it was good.
For God so loved the world that He gave one of His angels up that whosoever confesses with his mouth that "Michael is an angel and Satan's brother," could be one of His disicples. And so Michael said, "I go to prepare a place for you and will be back in 1914, that where I am, you may be as well. And lo, I am with you, even until World War 2." Then the witnesses of Michael boldly proclamed the news of their Father's kingdom with failed prophecies after failed prophecies. And many signs were shown of them. They laid hands on the sick and said, "you shall have no medicine, because it is evil." In those days, many followed them and their number was added daily. Persecuation was a daily trail for the witnesses of Michael, for they would get the door slammed in their faces almost every morning for waking people up and for filling people's mail boxes with their "awake" magazines. So they shook the dust off of their feet and pressed on. They came upon a man who said, "how shall I entered the kindom of Heaven" and they replied, "unless you have witnessed of Jehovah's kingdom, you shall not enter into the Kindom of Heaven." Therefore, many departed from them and followed them no more. Once a man asked of them, "God sirs, how shall I enter Heaven." They replied, "You do well to call us good, for we are not like the sinners who beat upon their beast sayiing 'forgive me a sinner,' but are instead outstanding and moral people. Follow us and you will enter the kingdom." Many followed on that day. Then they came upon a city where a woman was being stoned for adultery and said, "give me the first stone, for I will cast it." And so they did. For, they said, "only the Jehoavah's witnesses will inherit the earth and the feilds therefore." And it was good.
I believe you are mixing up two denominations. Michael seems to be with another group of believers. JWs consider Jesus a Mighty God, and don't believe they too will become gods of their own worlds some day...
just a thought.
S
Silas
Guest
Actually, JWs believe Jesus to be the created angel, Michael. He's Satan's brother, they say. Ask Mee.
Then that would mean that two denominations Hail "Michael" as Jesus...JW and Mormonism...
however, since Angels are not "brothers" (literally), and I can find no JW tract to point out the two beings considered such, I'd like you to point out your references. Mee isn't around at this conjuncture, and I can't find such declarations on any web site (but then I might be missing something).
Dor
Bible Thumper
Here Q.
Jesus is Michael the Archangel who became a man, died on a stake -- not a cross -- rose in a spirit body, and returned to heaven to be an angel again (The Watchtower, May 15, 1963, p. 307; The New World, 284)
Jesus, the devil, and all of us are literal spirit children born in a pre-existence, the literal offspring of God the Father and his goddess wife (Mormon Doctrine p. 516; Journal of Discourse, Vol. 4, p. 218)
Added note on SDA.
Early SDA denied His deity saying He's the archangel. Their Commentary vol 5 p 1129 cites Ellen "The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty"
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Silas
Guest
IMO A more thorough reading of Ellen White shows that she was saying that Jesus choose to hold himself in the human body (although since he was divine, he could have assumed that form at any time) to fully experience our condition and the sacrifice he was to give.
Adventists believe in Jesus divinity.
M
mee
Guest
i am glad to say that i see things very differently to you. if you see Jehovahs witnesses in this way , then i can see that you are without accurate knowledge about them .many people have many thoughts but not always according to accurate knowledge. Also regarding satan , as you mentioned him . To be a brother of satan would mean that you are in opposition to Jehovah, because that is what satan is ,he is in opposition and i think you will find that the bible teaches us that michael is a warrior king for Jehovah , and Michael is the one that cast satan and his followers out of the heavens revelation 12;7-9 . so no michael is not a brother of satan because michael is on the side of his father Jehovah. michael is a faithful son of God, and because of his faithfulness he has been given great aurthority and one of the things he has to do is to get rid of all those in opposition to Jehovah and him . but no worries , he will come out of it as victor
(Psalm 45:3) Gird your sword upon [your] thigh, O mighty one, [With] your dignity and your splendor.
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Silas
Guest
Mee
i am glad to say that i see things very differently to you.
So you dont see that Jesus is Michael the arch angel and that salvation is by works?
if you see Jehovahs witnesses in this way , then i can see that you are without accurate knowledge about them.
Also regarding satan , as you mentioned him . To be a brother of satan would mean that you are in opposition to Jehovah,
So you do not teach that Satan is Jesus' brother? What if I can show you from your Bible...I mean watch tower magazines?
i think you will find that the bible teaches us that michael is a warrior king for Jehovah
"Michael a warrior king for Jehovah?" What Bible verse is that?
michael is a faithful son of God, and because of his faithfulness he has been given great aurthority and one of the things he has to do is to get rid of all those in opposition to Jehovah and him . but no worries , he will come out of it as victor
Hey mee, is Jesus a mighty god or is He God almighty? If he is just another god, why then does God say that there is no other God besides him?
i am glad to say that i see things very differently to you.
So you dont see that Jesus is Michael the arch angel and that salvation is by works?
if you see Jehovahs witnesses in this way , then i can see that you are without accurate knowledge about them.
Also regarding satan , as you mentioned him . To be a brother of satan would mean that you are in opposition to Jehovah,
So you do not teach that Satan is Jesus' brother? What if I can show you from your Bible...I mean watch tower magazines?
i think you will find that the bible teaches us that michael is a warrior king for Jehovah
"Michael a warrior king for Jehovah?" What Bible verse is that?
michael is a faithful son of God, and because of his faithfulness he has been given great aurthority and one of the things he has to do is to get rid of all those in opposition to Jehovah and him . but no worries , he will come out of it as victor
Hey mee, is Jesus a mighty god or is He God almighty? If he is just another god, why then does God say that there is no other God besides him?
Mee said Michael will cast out the devil...again. And as I pointed out earlier, the only faith that considers Jesus, Michael and Lucifer as brothers or spirit brothers is Mormonsim (albeit early Mormonsim, which means they have changed their tune).
Now Mee, Is Michael, JESUS? yes or no is sufficient.
v/r
Joshua
Not on any website since 1963...oh wait, there were no websites in 1963. That means what is being said on the web sites is accurate (circa 2000-2007). And if you look on the JW official web pages, Jesus is not an angel and Michael and Gabriel specifically are, mentioned as angels, and are not to be prayed to...but Jesus is to be prayed to. So, I think you might revamp your anti JW stuff, because it is out of date by about 40 years.
If you also notice, JWs have been slowly working themselves toward mainstream Christian beliefs (again for the last 47 years).
What amazes me it that people go after younger faiths, trying to get it together, when theirs isn't so old either. Your particular faith...how old? 137 years? And you have all the answers. Mee's faith 114 years old, and he has all the answers. My faith (for example), 1600-2000 years old, and I don't know squat? How amazing. Furthermore, by y'all's own admissions you haven't been long in the faith (concidering your life spans so far). I've been in mine since I was four years old, and never thought to leave it or to believe anything else, even when I was stomping mad at life. That means, I may have been angry with my faith, but I never gave it up...not some of the stories I hear from y'all.
Yet you come back in spades to nail anyone who doesn't believe as you do...
what a shame.
Mee, still needs to answer the basic question about Michael and Jesus though...I want to know the truth as well.
/r
Q
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Since Im the one that gave Silas the information I feel obligated to defend him on this.
From JW's own literature.
"Scriptural evidence indicates that the name Michael applied to God's Son before he left heaven to become Jesus Christ and also after his return. . . In his prehuman existence Jesus was called 'the Word.' (John1:1) He also had the personal name Michael. By retaining the name Jesus after his resurrection (Acts 9:5), the 'Word' shows that he is identical with the Son of God on earth. His resuming his heavenly name Michael and his title (or, name) 'The Word of God' (Rev. 19:13) ties him in with his prehuman existence" (Aid to Bible Understanding, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Brooklyn New York, 1971, p. 1152).
Also,
"So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God" (Reasoning from the Scriptures, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Brooklyn New York, 1985, p. 218).
And,
Furthermore, the Watchtower teaches that Michael the Archangel set aside his angelic existence in order that his "spirit" or "life-force" could be transferred to the womb of Mary and become Jesus Christ.
For instance,
"Since actual conception took place, it appears that Jehovah God caused an ovum, or egg cell, in Mary's womb to become fertile, accomplishing this by the transferal of the life of his firstborn Son from the spirit realm to earth. (Gal. 4:4) Only in this way could the child eventually born have retained identity as the same person who had resided in heaven" (Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 1, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Brooklyn New York, 1988, p. 56).
Also,
"He has rightly been called Michael the Archangel. His life-force having been transferred to Mary's egg cell by Almighty God's power that overshadowed Mary meant that he, Michael, disappeared from heaven. By human birth from Mary, the Jewish virgin, he was to become a human soul" (God's "Eternal Purpose" Now Triumphing For Man's Good, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Brooklyn New York, 1974, pp. 137-138).
When the Watchtower says that Michael "disappeared from heaven," we can only ask whether or not Michael died, because his "body" is gone and his life-force sent to Mary's womb.
From JW's own literature.
"Scriptural evidence indicates that the name Michael applied to God's Son before he left heaven to become Jesus Christ and also after his return. . . In his prehuman existence Jesus was called 'the Word.' (John1:1) He also had the personal name Michael. By retaining the name Jesus after his resurrection (Acts 9:5), the 'Word' shows that he is identical with the Son of God on earth. His resuming his heavenly name Michael and his title (or, name) 'The Word of God' (Rev. 19:13) ties him in with his prehuman existence" (Aid to Bible Understanding, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Brooklyn New York, 1971, p. 1152).
Also,
"So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God" (Reasoning from the Scriptures, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Brooklyn New York, 1985, p. 218).
And,
Furthermore, the Watchtower teaches that Michael the Archangel set aside his angelic existence in order that his "spirit" or "life-force" could be transferred to the womb of Mary and become Jesus Christ.
For instance,
"Since actual conception took place, it appears that Jehovah God caused an ovum, or egg cell, in Mary's womb to become fertile, accomplishing this by the transferal of the life of his firstborn Son from the spirit realm to earth. (Gal. 4:4) Only in this way could the child eventually born have retained identity as the same person who had resided in heaven" (Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 1, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Brooklyn New York, 1988, p. 56).
Also,
"He has rightly been called Michael the Archangel. His life-force having been transferred to Mary's egg cell by Almighty God's power that overshadowed Mary meant that he, Michael, disappeared from heaven. By human birth from Mary, the Jewish virgin, he was to become a human soul" (God's "Eternal Purpose" Now Triumphing For Man's Good, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, Brooklyn New York, 1974, pp. 137-138).
When the Watchtower says that Michael "disappeared from heaven," we can only ask whether or not Michael died, because his "body" is gone and his life-force sent to Mary's womb.
I think you missed my point (2000-2007). 1974 is about 26 years behind the times as well. Mee is now. So I'll ask again. Mee, what of Jesus and Michael?
Or, E99, or Tommy?
M
mee
Guest
its good to want to know the truth , and over the years sincere bible students have been blessed because they are after truth.
And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant."Daniel 12;4 this roving around the bible by sincere bible students has in the time of the end been blessed, and true knowledge is now more and more abundant. especially when it comes to the book of revelation and the role that michael is playing in Gods purpose for the earth. thrilling times indeed for those who are willing to listen and take on board what the channel Jesus is using is saying . matthew 24;45 yes the bible really is alive and benificial to us .the light is getting brighter and brighter
(Psalm 97:11) Light itself has flashed up for the righteous one, And rejoicing even for the ones upright in heart.
M
mee
Guest
Seriously...Who does Jesus think He is? a warrior king for Jehovah.
The name "Michael" means "Who Is Like God?
Back in the early 1800’s, Bible scholar Joseph Benson stated that the description of Michael as found in the Bible "manifestly points out the Messiah." Nineteenth-century Lutheran E. W. Hengstenberg agreed that "Michael is no other than Christ." Similarly, theologian J. P. Lange, when commenting on Revelation 12:7, wrote: "We take it that Michael . . . is, from the outset, Christ in warlike array against Satan." Does the Bible support this identification? Yes, it does.
The name "Michael" means "Who Is Like God?
Back in the early 1800’s, Bible scholar Joseph Benson stated that the description of Michael as found in the Bible "manifestly points out the Messiah." Nineteenth-century Lutheran E. W. Hengstenberg agreed that "Michael is no other than Christ." Similarly, theologian J. P. Lange, when commenting on Revelation 12:7, wrote: "We take it that Michael . . . is, from the outset, Christ in warlike array against Satan." Does the Bible support this identification? Yes, it does.
pfw
interested
I can definatly back you up on the Mormon interpritation- I've made a post elsewere about my mother converting and all- I've read the Mormon Doctrine, Pearl Of Great Price, Book Of Mormon and Joseph Smiths 'translation' of the King James Bible (funny how, being divivnly inspired and all, he missed the 'thiu shal not suffer a witch to live' should have replace witch with poisoner... sorry, going way off topic)
Maybe the biggest problem we're seeing here is that Christianity has become so big, diverse and damn complicated it's got to the point were it's starting to tear itself to pieces and this fourm is just a microcosm of what's happening in the 'real world'?
Perhaps that would be for the best, tear it down and start again...
I've started reading up on Paganism- there's an interesting religion or system of thought and not as incompatable with Christianity as both sides seem to think... (please take this target up and start shooting- maybe you'll all find you have more in common than you think and I'm immune to 'internet bullets')
For my part I've, on this site, disagreed, argued and 'shouted' at a good few (and had the reverse) but, overall I've learnt and grown.
S