Christian Law

[lunamoth]

Good morning Dor,

Happy Birthday!

Best Regards,
Mark

It's your birthday! Happy Birthday!

And Happy Valentine's Day everyone!

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Luna and all!

Oh Luna! You little instigator you!

What, if any, are the Christian Laws/Commandments that all Christians are obligated to follow?

Also, please explain the basis for any laws you list.

Following are select quotes and comments:

I tend to read that any Law is a matter of Love, Faith, and Truth... in Matthew 23:23... both with God and with people.

This appears to be the general concensus so far here...

On the lack of law or elimination of law, I tend to find a study of the word iniquity is important, which includes many verses. Jesus said a lot for law through the word iniquity. Where there is an agreement, there is law and where there is no law there is iniquity.

I think this is a key element overlooked so far by everybody else.

If you are not willing to agree that homosexual behavior is wrong, as clearly the bible states, why not go further and say that adultery is not wrong, for some people are attracted to persons who are already married?

While I read your comment as somewhat rhetorical, I think it should be read more literal. The trouble is, in our "modern" society, adultery is almost openly condoned...how many adults do you know of 40 years of age or so working on their 4th or 5th marriage? Why are we not picketing in front of churches, Justice of Peace offices and wedding parlors against multiple marriages? Afterall, once married, always married in the eyes of G-d. Come to think of it, doesn't the Bible state that to sleep with a woman is to be married to her? So even though that person may be on their 5th marriage, counting those they have slept with out of wedlock they may be working on, oh what, for the sake of argument, say their 20th "marriage." How is this any more wise than homosexuality?

Now, I want to be clear...*I am not speaking in favor of homosexuality*...I do think it is an unwise lifestyle. So is multiple marriage an unwise lifestyle. So is smoking marijuana an unwise lifestyle. So is alcoholism an unwise lifestyle. So is wife beating an unwise lifestyle. Etc., etc., etc... Homosexuality needs to be seen in a proper perspective, rather than being an easy target to inflate out of proportion to project unmerited and unwarranted prejudicial bigoted hatred onto, masquerading as G-d's will. Let G-d do the judging and dealing of reward and punishment, let the individual answer to G-d on terms between them (G-d and the person). You can't save anybody but your own hide, nobody else can save you. It is all between G-d and each person.

I think we're all letting ourselves off way too lightly ...

Absolutely!

Read Matthew 5 – The Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes ...

"Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled. For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 5:17-20

Oh goodness, Thomas! Are you sincerely advocating a Christian return to the 613 Mitzvot? Kudos if you are! Now, where do we begin???

Try negotiating with Jesus. You'll find it's all on His terms, or not at all.

Agreed. But it is imperitive we accept the words of Jesus alone in literary and cultural context without administrative interference. I grow weary of this person and that person telling me (*read that as "force feeding me") "Jesus' words say this" and "Jesus' words say that" in complete contradiction to each other.

So, I read here that Christians are obligated to the Golden Rule...OK, that is pretty much a given. What about the laws of the land? Haven't seen anybody mention those. And while I have seen a couple of oblique references, I don't think anybody has quite got around to listing the laws of Nature.

Good morning Dor,

Happy Birthday!

Oh my! Did I miss Dor's birthday? Happy Belated Birthday Dor!

 

[BlaznFattyz]

Are we of consensus then? The only Law is the Greatest Commandment (Love), and the ten commandments are to inform our hearts in the Law?

i would not call it a law, rather commandment. they are two different things. christians are saved from the law by grace. we strive to keep the commandments of god and be holy as christ is holy, as we have accepted christ and the spirit fills our heart to love god and each other. when and where we fall short, christ is there to help us.

 

[Prober]

So, I read here that Christians are obligated to the Golden Rule...OK, that is pretty much a given. What about the laws of the land? Haven't seen anybody mention those. And while I have seen a couple of oblique references, I don't think anybody has quite got around to listing the laws of Nature.

Oh yeah,

"Render unto Caesar", etc...

IMO G-d first, "Caesar" second.

Natural laws?

I'd look to the Garden of Eden for G-d's plan and start with a frugivorous or vegetarian diet.

But Natural Laws aren't just for Christians...

 

[Dondi]

Dondi,

Clever, but the logic doesn't hold up

1. Appeal to nature is a logical fallacy, clever slogans do not equal truth

How so?

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it..." - Genesis 1:27-28

Simple biology, my friend. In the natural world, man cannot reproduce unless there is a male and a female, clever slogan or not.

2. The writers of the Bible did indeed mention this but there is contention even among Christians that this is the inerrant word of God.

Biblical inerrancy is not the issue here. The question Lunamoth asked is why Christians get so bent up over homosexuality. Most Christians in this arena are going to content that the bible is accurate in this area, since most denominations view the bible a inerrant.

3. Look around the planet has over 6billion of us, I think this mission has indeed been accomplished!

No thanks to homosexuals.

4.See #2

See #2 response.

5. Define Wrong in such a way to logically prove your contention.

When you fix your plumbing at home, do you try to screw a female end into another female end, or a male end into another male end? Doesn't work to well, do it?

 

[lunamoth]

i would not call it a law, rather commandment. they are two different things. christians are saved from the law by grace. we strive to keep the commandments of god and be holy as christ is holy, as we have accepted christ and the spirit fills our heart to love god and each other. when and where we fall short, christ is there to help us.

I like that a lot Blazn, and I think you are right that there is a slight nuance between law and commandment, ours being a Covenant relationship with God.

 

[Dondi]

Before I address the rest of your posts I'd just like to say that while we obviously come down on diffrent sides of the fence on the topic of homosexuality, I think it's important to remember that in many other things...in most...we have quite similar beliefs. You have touched my heart many many times with your beautiful posts and love of Jesus, love of God, and I don't want us to lose sight of that.

Sorry, luna, I didn't intend to get into an arguement. You asked why christians get bent up over homosexuality and I replied with the reasons.

As I've said, we must be led by the Spirit. But God will not contradict His Word. I'm not the Holy Spirit, but the only thing I say is that one must pray and be open to the leading of the the Holy Spirit. If one is really seeking God's will, then God is going to send that Holy Spirit conviction in areas of our lives that we may know what needs changing. Conviction is not meant for condemnation, but for correction. If one has earnestly sought the Lord in a certain area and receives no conviction, then there is nothing anyone can say to make them change anyway. It is God who is the change agent, not me or anyone else. All I can do is point at what appears to be the plain command of the Lord in His Word. And if one cannot agree with that plain reading, then one will try to justify it by trying to read what one wants it to say, or say that it was for that culture and not today, or just dismiss it as an error in the scriptures.

Frankly, I don't see how people can read around the issue. True, we are free from penalty the Law, through Christ. But Jesus never said that the Law was done away with. In fact, I think Jesus was much more strict in His interpretation of the Law, going beyond the mere act of adultery and into the thoughts of the heart. Basically, you are what you think.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Dondi!

When you fix your plumbing at home, do you try to screw a female end into another female end, or a male end into another male end? Doesn't work to well, do it?

I apologize in advance if it seems I'm picking on you, but I gotta comment on this...

It doesn't make any more sense to use a hammer for a screwdriver, but I see it happen all the time...

 

[lunamoth]

Kindest Regards, Luna and all!

Oh Luna! You little instigator you!

Bwahahahaha!

I know, just trying to add a different Christian perspective to the board.

Re: cyberpi's post on iniquity:

I think this is a key element overlooked so far by everybody else.

Yes, that is a good point. Cyberpi emphasized iniquity, guess I would emphasize equity as well.

While I read your comment as somewhat rhetorical, I think it should be read more literal. The trouble is, in our "modern" society, adultery is almost openly condoned...how many adults do you know of 40 years of age or so working on their 4th or 5th marriage? Why are we not picketing in front of churches, Justice of Peace offices and wedding parlors against multiple marriages? Afterall, once married, always married in the eyes of G-d. Come to think of it, doesn't the Bible state that to sleep with a woman is to be married to her? So even though that person may be on their 5th marriage, counting those they have slept with out of wedlock they may be working on, oh what, for the sake of argument, say their 20th "marriage." How is this any more wise than homosexuality?

Excellent point.

Now, I want to be clear...*I am not speaking in favor of homosexuality*...I do think it is an unwise lifestyle. So is multiple marriage an unwise lifestyle. So is smoking marijuana an unwise lifestyle. So is alcoholism an unwise lifestyle. So is wife beating an unwise lifestyle. Etc., etc., etc... Homosexuality needs to be seen in a proper perspective, rather than being an easy target to inflate out of proportion to project unmerited and unwarranted prejudicial bigoted hatred onto, masquerading as G-d's will. Let G-d do the judging and dealing of reward and punishment, let the individual answer to G-d on terms between them (G-d and the person). You can't save anybody but your own hide, nobody else can save you. It is all between G-d and each person.

Thank you Juan. This is similar to the point made by earl in another thread. I would say that wifebeating is not just an unwise lifestyle, but a situation the merits intervention...but this just further illustrates the way out of the garden when we judge and condemn others, rather than listening to them.


I think I touched on the rest of your points in other posts. Thank you for your reasoned reply here.

 

[lunamoth]

Sorry, luna, I didn't intend to get into an arguement. You asked why christians get bent up over homosexuality and I replied with the reasons.

I know Dondi, and I don't dismiss what you have to say at all.

As I've said, we must be led by the Spirit. But God will not contradict His Word. I'm not the Holy Spirit, but the only thing I say is that one must pray and be open to the leading of the the Holy Spirit. If one is really seeking God's will, then God is going to send that Holy Spirit conviction in areas of our lives that we may know what needs changing. Conviction is not meant for condemnation, but for correction. If one has earnestly sought the Lord in a certain area and receives no conviction, then there is nothing anyone can say to make them change anyway. It is God who is the change agent, not me or anyone else. All I can do is point at what appears to be the plain command of the Lord in His Word. And if one cannot agree with that plain reading, then one will try to justify it by trying to read what one wants it to say, or say that it was for that culture and not today, or just dismiss it as an error in the scriptures.

Frankly, I don't see how people can read around the issue. True, we are free from penalty the Law, through Christ. But Jesus never said that the Law was done away with. In fact, I think Jesus was much more strict in His interpretation of the Law, going beyond the mere act of adultery and into the thoughts of the heart. Basically, you are what you think.

Believe it or not I do understand this Dondi. I ask myself about these issues all the time. I've raised my voice in this thread not because of the certainty that I'm right and everyone else is wrong, but because I think the strong words of judgement and condemnation I've been reading on the board lately are unnecessary and mean. I may get beat up for saying there are other ways of approaching Christianity and the Bible, but I felt it was important that I should add another perspective to this particular issue.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

Sorry, luna, I didn't intend to get into an arguement. You asked why christians get bent up over homosexuality and I replied with the reasons.

As I've said, we must be led by the Spirit. But God will not contradict His Word. I'm not the Holy Spirit, but the only thing I say is that one must pray and be open to the leading of the the Holy Spirit. If one is really seeking God's will, then God is going to send that Holy Spirit conviction in areas of our lives that we may know what needs changing. Conviction is not meant for condemnation, but for correction. If one has earnestly sought the Lord in a certain area and receives no conviction, then there is nothing anyone can say to make them change anyway. It is God who is the change agent, not me or anyone else. All I can do is point at what appears to be the plain command of the Lord in His Word. And if one cannot agree with that plain reading, then one will try to justify it by trying to read what one wants it to say, or say that it was for that culture and not today, or just dismiss it as an error in the scriptures.

Frankly, I don't see how people can read around the issue. True, we are free from penalty the Law, through Christ. But Jesus never said that the Law was done away with. In fact, I think Jesus was much more strict in His interpretation of the Law, going beyond the mere act of adultery and into the thoughts of the heart. Basically, you are what you think.

if something you are doing is sinful in your life, and you hide it and keep that door closed from god, yet let him in other parts of your life, then you have serious issues. if you are going to accept christ in to your life he wants to cleanse all of you, not just what you want--even the most dirtiest parts that you are so ashamed of and struggling with. this is why christ came. to renew us so we might be able to come before god the father through him. christ being born a jewish man was under the law, followed it completely and perfectly and died a sacrificial lamb without blemish. and to those that think he did not, this is where he spoke the words of god directly and explained what the law really meant and it all hung up loving god and each other more than anything. however, the faulty premise that any of us are good enough to follow all the laws and can find god this way will find that we cannot keep the laws, and if we break one we have broken them all, because we are not perfect and are sinful and all fall short of the glory of god. this is why christ comes in, christ did not do away with the laws, he fulfilled them and died for us. it is through him we find grace and life rather than law and death. he is exalted and glorified back with god the father and he is our lord god and saviour.

 

[Prober]

Here's a thought I read from another forum...

Christians (human nature I think) seem to be most intolerant of sins which they have little or no chance of committing.

As one's sexual preference is usually decided and not open to debate, this makes homosexuality a natural target for people who can then "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican".

Thoughts?


[/FONT]

 

[Dondi]

Here's a thought I read from another forum...

Christians (human nature I think) seem to be most intolerant of sins which they have little or no chance of committing.

As one's sexual preference is usually decided and not open to debate, this makes homosexuality a natural target for people who can then "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican".[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Thoughts?[/FONT]

How do you know that these certain Christians haven't had struggles with the issues themselves? Many ex-[insert sinner here] are some of the strongest opponents of [insert sin here].

 

[BlaznFattyz]

intolerance... that may have some truth to it; however, i think many people confuse intolerance for love and pointing out the serious threat of eternal damnation. if one was in hell fire and tormented, maybe they would not complain so much of intolerance, but wish someone would have knocked some sense into them. as christians we do not wish to see others die and come to judgement and be condemned. rather we wish all to find salvation in christ and be part of gods kingdom. the extreme intolerance that does exist, i know what you are referring to, nobody told them they had the gift of evangelism, but they try to speak for christians anyway--we didnt vote for them to speak for us. many times i think they do more harm by scaring people off and associating christianity with intolerance. the spirit of love is gentle, forgiving, and kind, and that is how we should approach and treat each other. god who is holy and righteous will judge, and all vengeance and wrath is his alone.

 

[Prober]

How do you know that these certain Christians haven't had struggles with the issues themselves? Many ex-[insert sinner here] are some of the strongest opponents of [insert sin here].

I don't. This was something someone suggested as a possible reason some Christians persue this sin more than others.

Just food for thought...

 

[Dor]

Good morning Dor,

Happy Birthday!

Best Regards,
Mark

It's your birthday! Happy Birthday!

And Happy Valentine's Day everyone!

Oh my! Did I miss Dor's birthday? Happy Belated Birthday Dor!

No juantoo3 it is today.

Thank yall and Happy Valentine's to everyone.

 

[Paladin]

How so?

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it..." - Genesis 1:27-28

Simple biology, my friend. In the natural world, man cannot reproduce unless there is a male and a female, clever slogan or not.




Biblical inerrancy is not the issue here. The question Lunamoth asked is why Christians get so bent up over homosexuality. Most Christians in this arena are going to content that the bible is accurate in this area, since most denominations view the bible a inerrant.



No thanks to homosexuals.




See #2 response.



When you fix your plumbing at home, do you try to screw a female end into another female end, or a male end into another male end? Doesn't work to well, do it?

Please don't misunderstand, the illogic stands unless your premise is that homosexuality does not produce offspring and fails to enact procreation. If the premise is that homosexuality is "wrong" because of the four arguments you originally presented then my refutation would have to stand.
It is well known that the "appeal to nature" argument doesn't work to explain why would take several pm's and some links to show you, but it is considered one of the common fallacies of logic.
Using scripture to say it is wrong only works in a context Dependant manner such as is used by Blaise Pascal.
The plumbing issue only works if, again, procreation is the issue and premise and still doesn't make something wrong, it is in fact Non sequitur in a "homosexuality is just plain wrong" context.
The only argument that holds up is that "I feel it to be wrong" then it becomes an argument of preference and cannot be refuted. You see?

Peace
Mark

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards to the militant moth!

I would say that wifebeating is not just an unwise lifestyle, but a situation the merits intervention...

In today's circumstances I would agree with you, but I put that in there for a specific purpose.

How often I have heard the verse quoted out of context that the wife should be subservient to her husband...and whether we wish to face it as Christians or not, in my lifetime this was used to justify beating one's wife as Biblical and Christian!!! Nevermind the verses that say to become one flesh, and for husbands to treat their wives "even as their own flesh."

The Bible has been used to justify all manner of atrocities in the name of Jesus and G-d...many of which we now understand for what they are. We haven't quite reached that point with homosexuality yet...I think because some people will comb the text for loopholes to find a scapegoat to justify their prejudicial bigotry. But that's only my opinion...

A couple of generations back, it was justified prejudice of people of color, a generation back it was justified prejudice to beat one's wife, currently it is justified prejudice to denigrate homosexuals...there are those who require a scapegoat, and will find one at cost. Who next? Me, for exposing the G-d's honest truth?

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Blazn!

if something you are doing is sinful in your life, and you hide it and keep that door closed from god, yet let him in other parts of your life, then you have serious issues. if you are going to accept christ in to your life he wants to cleanse all of you, not just what you want--even the most dirtiest parts that you are so ashamed of and struggling with.

Yes, I agree, but G-d has a lifetime to work with, and the timetable is His. You might see an instant change...*poof*...instant perfect Christian. Me, I've been a sincere Christian for 25 years or so, and I am still a work in progress.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Prober!

Here's a thought I read from another forum...

Christians (human nature I think) seem to be most intolerant of sins which they have little or no chance of committing.

As one's sexual preference is usually decided and not open to debate, this makes homosexuality a natural target for people who can then "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican".

An interesting view...justified judgementalism believing they will not be accountable for that particular sin...while failing to realize that sin is sin, diffentiated only in matter of degree. A cigarette smoker has no business casting judgement against a pot smoker, any more than an adulterer has any business condemning a homosexual.

A thought I neglected earlier...Adultery is covered in the 10 Commandments...homosexuality is not. If there should be emphasis, should it not be properly placed? If it was cast in stone on Mt. Sinai by the finger of G-d, I would think it carries a whole lot more weight than otherwise.