Hard topic...maybe?

Originally Posted by Silas
What I meant by that statement is basically this: God is Love, therefore He hates anything opposite to most perfect attribute. For instance, a person who has a great love for children cannot and will not, love child molestors.
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I don't believe G-d hates anyone. Spirit wishes us all to succeed and is there to support us when we fall. Hate the sin, love the siner, yes the child molestor.

If your kid strikes out at you (disrespects his father) do you quit loving him or support him. Say we are talking about your vegetable garden that is wilting and not producing enough flowers, hence not enough perfect fruits. If you wish to change the outcome the solution is not to hate the veggie, but feed it, nurture it, care for it.

If someone is molesting children or acting out in any way they are crying out for love. They need TLC, nurturing, they need our support not our hate.

Jesus taught us this.
 
How do you understand God saying "Jacob I loved and Esua I hated?"
 
Silas said:
What I meant by that statement is basically this: God is Love, therefore He hates anything opposite to most perfect attribute. For instance, a person who has a great love for children cannot and will not, love child molestors.
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I might suggest that he doesn't hate the sinner, but rather that spirit within the sinner that intices the molester to do such things in the first place. "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places"

It all takes place on a spiritual level, Imo. Good example, tho silas. I sometimes have a hard time seperating the sin from the sinner myself.


Much Love,


James
 
wil said:
Are you following all the commandments and dietary rules of the old testament now? Or are you with Christ Jesus and his teachings?
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Jesus followed the OT. As a matter of fact, he fulfilled the OT. But, that has nothing to do with I said. How do you understand God saying "Jacob I loved and Esau I hated?" and Apostle Paul reitterating those words?
 
You referred to the Old testament...and then Paul referring to it.

Can you help me with the location of your Old testament quote...'Where it is written'?
 
Silas said:
What do you mean by "separate a person from his sin?" Do you mean that Christ changed a sinner into a saint by granting him repentance and faith, or something else?
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I am suggesting that saying, "God hates a sinner" is wrong in that Jesus loved a sinner by loving the person and hating the sin. I understand the way you word it, but I suggest that Jesus' vernacular, who you call God, separates a person from a sin. Nowhere did Jesus say that he hates someone... in fact he says to love those who you think sin. Are you not bringing God down to your vernacular?

Silas said:
I agree with you. It is of the utmost importance to forgive! God, however, doesnt forgive just because He's good. He says that He will by no means clear the guilty and that justice must be met. Therfore, in Love and Justice, God put forth Christ as the atoning scrifice for sinners. Christ suffered God's wrath to both show God's justice, and to justifiy sinner's through Him. "Whosoever will believe upon Him, shall not perish."
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Here you say that God justifies sinners... elsewhere you say that God hates sinners. Does a person who hates a sinner, justify the sinner? Does God (or Jesus) justify a sin, the person who had committed a sin, or both?

<< added >> Oops, I responded to the thread in an older state... wil said it... I step off the floor.
 
Yes Malachi. Angel, Oracle or Messenger? Prophet or prophetic story? Parable or Metaphor?

While it is cannonized in the Prophets it is unlike the others, no lineage or birth of this prophet, no ministry...it toys with us from the beginning. The lord loves us? and then "How have you loved us?" Discussing how G-d picks and chooses, like rolling dice...second born twin gets to rule, prior to birth..

To me the word hate is not hate but seems like hate in reference to the gifts laid on Jacob and the turmoil that Esau lived through.

Tis not my understanding of G-d in a literal reading of this vision/dream. A G-d that is so insecure that demands sacrifice from its creation. The whole story is written in such a sarcastic nature as to taunt us..."You don't really believe this to be true do you....alright, then in that case I will continue, and see if I can get you to understand how ridiculous that is."

No a hateful and vengeful G-d I do not see. I see a people who did not could not understand what was going on around them...needing someone to blame for their ills....and they invented this G-d in their image...and this story filled their need.
 
I am suggesting that saying, "God hates a sinner" is wrong in that Jesus loved a sinner by loving the person and hating the sin.

There is nothing in the sinner but sin. Therefore, there is nothing in man to draw God's effection. God's choice of loving people is just that, His choice. He chooses whom He will love and whom He will not love. As it is written, "Jacob have I loved, but Esua I have hated."

I understand the way you word it, but I suggest that Jesus' vernacular, who you call God, separates a person from a sin. Nowhere did Jesus say that he hates someone... in fact he says to love those who you think sin. Are you not bringing God down to your vernacular?

I'm not sure what you're mean here? I do agree that we are to love our enemies, but that is us (humans). The Laws of God are made for us and not God. Christ is Lord over all laws and is a law unto Himself. And as for Jesus hating people. Well, Jesus is God and scriptures are replete with God hating people. Lev 20:23, comes to mind.

Here you say that God justifies sinners... elsewhere you say that God hates sinners. Does a person who hates a sinner, justify the sinner?

Very good observation and question! The answer to it is, yes. Though there is nothing in the sinner to attract God's love and though God's anger burns against sinners, God has chosen to set His eternal love upon some equally wicked and equallly hell deserving sinners to save them to the praise of His glorious grace. He died to save the sinners whom He chose to Love for His own glory.

Does God (or Jesus) justify a sin, the person who had committed a sin, or both?

God never forgives sin without payment, He is way too just. Christ died for two main reasons:

1. To show forth the holiness of God in that He does not let sin go unpunished.

2. To justify those who trust in Christ. In other words, those who trust in Christ can have their debt paid because their sin will be imputed to Christ' body where He paid for sin, and Christ' righteousness will be imputed or credited to the believer's account, whereby they can be forgiven and counted as perfect in Christ, making them worthy of being in God's Holy presence.
 
Hi Silas –

Matthew 6:14:
"For if you will forgive men their offences, your heavenly Father will forgive you also your offences. But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offences."

Matthew 18:21
"Then came Peter unto him and said: Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith to him: I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven times.

Matthew 18:35
"So also shall my heavenly Father do to you (deliver you to torment), if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts."

Luke 6:37
"Judge not: and you shall not be judged. Condemn not: and you shall not be condemned. Forgive: and you shall be forgiven."

Forgiveness is not in constantly reminding someone he is a sinner, for all that does is confirm them in their sin.

I would rather the better message is to extend the same love and charity to others that God extends to you, because you don't know what plans God has for every man, so wiser to keep one's counsel, and not be too quick to judge.

Consider, you say:
God never forgives sin without payment, He is way too just. Christ died for two main reasons:
1. To show forth the holiness of God in that He does not let sin go unpunished.

Jesus said: "Father, forgive them"

Are you saying God said "No"?

Thomas
 
Silas said:
How do you understand God saying "Jacob I loved and Esua I hated?"
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That is an easy one. Jacob feared God, and obeyed as a result. Esua proved over and over to be a carnal and disobedient man to God, even unto the point of plotting his God fearing brother's murder (sounds an awful lot like Cane and Able beginning all over again).

God was not with Esua for a time, while God was with Jacob.

It is also a warning to the First Born of every family, to not be too prideful and headstrong and independent in their ways (First borns seem to have the hardest time getting to know God...):eek:

v/r

Joshua
 
Quahom1 said:
That is an easy one. Jacob feared God, and obeyed as a result. Esua proved over and over to be a carnal and disobedient man to God, even unto the point of plotting his God fearing brother's murder (sounds an awful lot like Cane and Able beginning all over again).

God was not with Esua for a time, while God was with Jacob.

It is also a warning to the First Born of every family, to not be too prideful and headstrong and independent in their ways (First borns seem to have the hardest time getting to know God...):eek:

v/r

Joshua
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That makes a lot of sense! But, is it Biblical? What did Apostle Paul said in Romans 9? "Before they were born and did any good or bad..." Finish it.
 
Thomas said:
Hi Silas –

Matthew 6:14:
"For if you will forgive men their offences, your heavenly Father will forgive you also your offences. But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offences."

Matthew 18:21
"Then came Peter unto him and said: Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith to him: I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven times.

Matthew 18:35
"So also shall my heavenly Father do to you (deliver you to torment), if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts."

Luke 6:37
"Judge not: and you shall not be judged. Condemn not: and you shall not be condemned. Forgive: and you shall be forgiven."

Forgiveness is not in constantly reminding someone he is a sinner, for all that does is confirm them in their sin.

I would rather the better message is to extend the same love and charity to others that God extends to you, because you don't know what plans God has for every man, so wiser to keep one's counsel, and not be too quick to judge.

Consider, you say:
God never forgives sin without payment, He is way too just. Christ died for two main reasons:
1. To show forth the holiness of God in that He does not let sin go unpunished.

Jesus said: "Father, forgive them"

Are you saying God said "No"?

Thomas
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Jesus was the payment, Thomas. Its a huge part of the gospel, e.g., Christ paid the price of sin for sinners. God forgive because Christ atoned for sin.
 
17th Angel said:
If jesus was the payment, and he's paid the price for us... Why do we have to bother with "oh praise jah".... If we have paid then leave us alone... I've got my ticket! :D
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You dont, actually. The truth is, Christ only paid the price for His elect, i.e., a group of sinners that the Father has given the Son from out of the whole world. Their law breaking debt has been paid by Jesus' gracious free offer. As a result, they actally want to bother with praising God. They desire to know Him more and live for Him. They dont want to leave Jesus alone. They love Him. He too God's wrath in their stead and they know this to be true. Therefore, they aim to please Him and Love Him with all their hearts, mind, soul, and strength. Now the rest, those whom he didnt die for, ask questions like, "why do we have to bother with praising Him?"
 
17th Angel said:
So when people tell me jesus died for me, they are just a bunch of liar liar's pant's on fire!! And jesus was selfish and only died for his friends and not poor people like me :(
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You have a very good point, actually! People in NO way should witness to you by telling you that God died for you. No one but God knows that. It could be that you are not yet ready to be converted, but will be one day. Or, it could be true that you will never be converted because you arent one of God's sheep. To be honest, this should cause you to consider you eternal state and where you will spend eternity - Heaven or Hell. Do you want Jesus? If you do, I can say that He wants you more. If you dont however...well, thats not a good sign. As for Jesus being selfish and dying only for those he foreknew, well, you'll have to take that up with Him. Truth is, He didnt make you sin, nor did He have to die to save anyone. He has a right to give eternal life to any He wants.
 
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