17th Angel
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See that I cannot fathom.... He didn't have to put jesus through hell? But he did? Like, he doesn't have to let wars go on, but he does? ;/ It's all crazy to me...
17th Angel
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So some say he died for all some say he didn't.... I obviously am not a believer, but being a god of love could he really say I will save you but not you.... Or show more love to one than another... ?
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Silas
Guest
Actually He did have to put Jesus through Hell is he wanted to save any. A Holy God cannot justify guilty people. So one had to die. Either it will be the sinners or it will be Him on behalf of sinners. Christ died for some to be glorified in His forgiveness of men. The rest goes to Hell by their own choice. Everything that occurs was foreordained to occure and it pans out for God's glory in the end. His ways are amazing and passed finding out. You're missing so much bro. Read the Bible and see how amazing and Big this God is. He's wonderful, fearful, Loving, Glorious, etc.
Get to know Him. Read the Bible!
17th Angel
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Read it... Got a different picture than what you paint though.
Why go through all the pain and hassle? He built the world and universe with ease... Wipe it all out, save jesus all this pain and bother make some more adam and eve's.... and whatever you do don't say you can do whatever you want but DON'T touch that! Cause we are humans you know you're going to touch it no matter what... I don't need a talking snake to convince me to press a big red button if it says "do not press" It's asking for it....
Why go through all the pain and hassle? He built the world and universe with ease... Wipe it all out, save jesus all this pain and bother make some more adam and eve's.... and whatever you do don't say you can do whatever you want but DON'T touch that! Cause we are humans you know you're going to touch it no matter what... I don't need a talking snake to convince me to press a big red button if it says "do not press" It's asking for it....
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Silas
Guest
That's cool. Did Christ die for the sons of Eli in 1 Sam 3:13-14
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Silas
Guest
Sorry, I dont understand. What exactly are you wondering? Are you asing why did Jesus have to suffer?
17th Angel
לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות
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Wait a minute..... Something is messed up... A post has gone? There was something there before which I was replying to now looking down it isn't there..... Uhm, I am going to have a smoke break.
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Silas
Guest
Smoking is bad for you.
Well...that's a good one isn't it. It doesn't really spell it out but at least sacrifice won't do any good. It makes it seem likle this is for the whole family and its generations "forever". They are accused of blasphemy so perhaps Jesus sacrifice won't even work for them.
Hmmm. Really got me thinking, Silas.
Regards,
Mark
LeoSalinas22
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it sure is! i kind of feel bad for 17th angel. i know exactly how he feels. if he only knew that it isn't as easy as just wiping the slate clean. He did that with the flood and He repented in doing that and made the covenant of the rainbow.
LeoSalinas22
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Well...that's a good one isn't it. It doesn't really spell it out but at least sacrifice won't do any good. It makes it seem likle this is for the whole family and its generations "forever". They are accused of blasphemy so perhaps Jesus sacrifice won't even work for them.
Hmmm. Really got me thinking, Silas.
Regards,
Mark
St. John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
St. John 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
you can read the whole prayer on John:17. it is beautiful, just like our Father in heaven.
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Silas
Guest
Well...that's a good one isn't it. It doesn't really spell it out but at least sacrifice won't do any good. It makes it seem likle this is for the whole family and its generations "forever". They are accused of blasphemy so perhaps Jesus sacrifice won't even work for them.
Hmmm. Really got me thinking, Silas.
Regards,
Mark
Thanks for being so gracious! I know that certian topics within the Bible, like election and God's sovereignity, are really hard to discuss with some people. I will encourage you to pray and seek God's face on these issues.
Proverb 25:2
- Silas
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Silas
Guest
Good point. Jesus is our High preist. Like the High preist of the Old Testament, Jesus only prays for and offers sacrifices for His people; not the whole world.
Actually according to Jesus' own words and those of John 3:16 for starters, he does. All he has to do is accept the gift that Jesus offers. That is all anyone has to do (genuinely accept the salvation offered them). So if anyone has spoken to 17th about the salvation of Christ that awaits him if he accepts it, they are not liars at all.
Many are called, few are chosen (few choose). Remember the banquet that the king threw and invited all the rich and powerful and popular, and not a one showed up. So he threw open the doors to the hall and had his servants go and gather the poor the wretched, the sick off the streets, and he threw them a feast of feasts, while having the self-righteous uh, dispatched for snubbing him?
Who do you think that metaphor was describing? An earthly king?
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Silas
Guest
Josh
Actually according to Jesus' own words and those of John 3:16 for starters, he does.
First, the word "world" in scripture doesnt always mean everybody. Second, in context of John 3:16, the scriptures are talking about believers. God cant love the world because He already said He hated Esua and the sons of Eli. We must learn to read God's words in context. Superimpose John 3:16 with John 3:18. Third, read all of John 3 in context to see what is being discussed, namely Jesus' teaching of regeneration, which is done by God first (unless one is born agian...) Ezk 37:35-36.
All he has to do is accept the gift that Jesus offers.
How's an regenerated person in the flesh supposed to do that, especially considering Romans 8:7..."For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot."
Many are called, few are chosen (few choose). Remember the banquet that the king threw and invited all the rich and powerful and popular, and not a one showed up. So he threw open the doors to the hall and had his servants go and gather the poor the wretched, the sick off the streets, and he threw them a feast of feasts, while having the self-righteous uh, dispatched for snubbing him? Who do you think that metaphor was describing? An earthly king?
The parable is talking about the Kingdom of Heaven, God, Jews, and Gentiles. It actually deals with a lot.
Actually according to Jesus' own words and those of John 3:16 for starters, he does.
First, the word "world" in scripture doesnt always mean everybody. Second, in context of John 3:16, the scriptures are talking about believers. God cant love the world because He already said He hated Esua and the sons of Eli. We must learn to read God's words in context. Superimpose John 3:16 with John 3:18. Third, read all of John 3 in context to see what is being discussed, namely Jesus' teaching of regeneration, which is done by God first (unless one is born agian...) Ezk 37:35-36.
All he has to do is accept the gift that Jesus offers.
How's an regenerated person in the flesh supposed to do that, especially considering Romans 8:7..."For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot."
Many are called, few are chosen (few choose). Remember the banquet that the king threw and invited all the rich and powerful and popular, and not a one showed up. So he threw open the doors to the hall and had his servants go and gather the poor the wretched, the sick off the streets, and he threw them a feast of feasts, while having the self-righteous uh, dispatched for snubbing him? Who do you think that metaphor was describing? An earthly king?
The parable is talking about the Kingdom of Heaven, God, Jews, and Gentiles. It actually deals with a lot.
Ok, I'll let scripture speak for itself:
I. Jesus – The Prophet
a. "The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers-it is to him you shall listen- just as you desired of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God or see this great fire any more, lest I die. And the Lord said to me, they are right in what they have spoken. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. - Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15-18)
b. “But I say to you…..” Jesus speaking (Matthew 5:22)
i. Old testament Prophet “Thus sayeth the Lord”
ii. Jesus – “But I say to you”
1. Appeals to his own authority
2. Book of John – More than 50 times stated “I tell you the truth”
c. Jesus came to preach – (Mark 1:36-42)
d. Jesus came to teach us how to be born again – (John 3:1-3)
Jesus – The Priest
a. The priest was the “mediator” between God and the people. He would ask for forgiveness on behalf of the people.
i. The Book of Hebrews describes the priestly ministry of Jesus
b. He reconciles us to God by sacrificing Himself for our sin (Hebrews 9:26) and by living to intercede for us continually (Romans 8:34)
c. Jesus came to save lost people
i. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost. – (Luke 19:10)
d. Jesus came to save the world
i. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness. As for the person who hears my words, but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. (John 12: 46-47)
e. Jesus came to die – (John 12:27-33)
f. Jesus came to serve us through His death – (Matthew 20:25-29)
g. Jesus came to call sinners to repentance - (Luke 5:31-32)
h. Jesus came to call sinners to Himself – Matthew 9:9-14
i. As Jesus passed on from there, he saw a man called Matthew sitting at the tax booth, and he said to him, “Follow me.” And he rose and followed him. And as Jesus reclined at the table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were reclining with Jesus and his disciples. And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” But when he heard it he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
III. Jesus – The King
a. Jesus came to reveal His kingdom
i. Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” Then Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world – to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.” – John 18:36-38
b. Jesus came to rule over Satan and demons – Luke 11:19-21
c. Jesus came to rule over our new life – John 10:9-10
As Prophet, Jesus confronts us and calls us to repent of sin.
As Priest, Jesus comforts us and enables us to repent of sin.
As King, Jesus commands us to relinquish authority over all areas of our life to keep us from sin. "
Finaly, Jesus is specific to whom He is addressing and whom He is here for:
I am the Light of the world, he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the Light of Life, John 1:9, and 8:12.
So the opportunities for people to be saved was apparently expanded to include the four corners of the earth and all who inhabit therein...if they choose His offer.
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Silas
Guest
I am pleased to see you look up scripture, Josh. I praise God for this! Now, can you kindly show me one scripture where it shows that anyone accepted Jesus' offer without assistance from God? The reason I ask this is because I'd like to show you from scripture, where you arrived to an assumed premise and therefore hold a false conclussion. It goes something like this:
Because the Bible commands us to repent and come to Christ (starting premise), you assume that God will not command something we cannot do (assumed premise), and because he did command repentence and faith, you therefore conclude that we can and have (Conclussion). I'll explain more when you give me one scripture where anyone came to Christ on their own.
The insult was not lost on me.
Regardless, there was never mention of man accepting or doing anything without the grace of God. However as God is no respector of persons His grace is shed on whom He will, where He will, when He will, and He does not tell us who that may or may not be.
That is not a prerequisite that anyone can control, and therefore not subject to judgement or debate by any human. Those that are called must choose to accept, and we do not know who is called.
So by berating someone and telling him he is not called, is a falsehood as we have no foresight (no one does). And lecturing one who may not be chosen is as useless as talking to a deaf man at one hundred yards in a high wind.
Just because someone is angry with God, or sarcastic or overly askance concerning God, does not mean God is not with or in them, or calling them. Quite the contrary, the calling may be quite strong within them.
The Prodigal son comes immediately to mind...as does his "faithful" yet angry and judgmental "brother"...
v/r
Joshua
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Silas
Guest
Josh
The insult was not lost on me.
But it is to me. Sorry if I said anything to offend you. It wasnt my intent!
Regardless, there was never mention of man accepting or doing anything without the grace of God.
That's exactly right.
However as God is no respector of persons His grace is shed on whom He will, where He will, when He will, and He does not tell us who that may or may not be.
It is because God is not a respector of any person that He has been pleased to have an unconditional election, whereby He and He alone chooses whom He will have mercy on. That said, I agree with the latter half of what you said - "He does not tell us who those are."
That is not a prerequisite that anyone can control, and therefore not subject to judgement or debate by any human. Those that are called must choose to accept, and we do not know who is called.
This is exactly right. This is why we are told to "preach the gospel to 'every' creature." Also, you are right to infer man's responsiblity in doing what God commands, namely to repent and believe. In the scriptures, divine sovereignity and human responsiblity are not mutually exclussive.
So by berating someone and telling him he is not called, is a falsehood as we have no foresight (no one does). And lecturing one who may not be chosen is as useless as talking to a deaf man at one hundred yards in a high wind.
Also right! I dont believe any real Christian will say to another person that they arent call. Rather, I believe the ones who understands this doctrine will look at the worst of sinners and think..."the bigger they are, they harder they fall when God gets a hold of them." This is prehaps the reason why missionaries were started by Calvinist and why most of the Christians who God was pleased to use in mighty ways to witness and change history, were Calvinist.
Just because someone is angry with God, or sarcastic or overly askance concerning God, does not mean God is not with or in them, or calling them. Quite the contrary, the calling may be quite strong within them.
True. Pior to converstion, I cursed God. Yo, I acually cursed God. How scary is that. But, look at the mercy God had. He gave me faith and granted me repentence. Now, I actually want to serve Him.
The Prodigal son comes immediately to mind...as does his "faithful" yet angry and judgmental "brother"...
I dont understand this part.
The insult was not lost on me.
But it is to me. Sorry if I said anything to offend you. It wasnt my intent!
Regardless, there was never mention of man accepting or doing anything without the grace of God.
That's exactly right.
However as God is no respector of persons His grace is shed on whom He will, where He will, when He will, and He does not tell us who that may or may not be.
It is because God is not a respector of any person that He has been pleased to have an unconditional election, whereby He and He alone chooses whom He will have mercy on. That said, I agree with the latter half of what you said - "He does not tell us who those are."
That is not a prerequisite that anyone can control, and therefore not subject to judgement or debate by any human. Those that are called must choose to accept, and we do not know who is called.
This is exactly right. This is why we are told to "preach the gospel to 'every' creature." Also, you are right to infer man's responsiblity in doing what God commands, namely to repent and believe. In the scriptures, divine sovereignity and human responsiblity are not mutually exclussive.
So by berating someone and telling him he is not called, is a falsehood as we have no foresight (no one does). And lecturing one who may not be chosen is as useless as talking to a deaf man at one hundred yards in a high wind.
Also right! I dont believe any real Christian will say to another person that they arent call. Rather, I believe the ones who understands this doctrine will look at the worst of sinners and think..."the bigger they are, they harder they fall when God gets a hold of them." This is prehaps the reason why missionaries were started by Calvinist and why most of the Christians who God was pleased to use in mighty ways to witness and change history, were Calvinist.
Just because someone is angry with God, or sarcastic or overly askance concerning God, does not mean God is not with or in them, or calling them. Quite the contrary, the calling may be quite strong within them.
True. Pior to converstion, I cursed God. Yo, I acually cursed God. How scary is that. But, look at the mercy God had. He gave me faith and granted me repentence. Now, I actually want to serve Him.
The Prodigal son comes immediately to mind...as does his "faithful" yet angry and judgmental "brother"...
I dont understand this part.