Why We Need a Savior

[Silas]

I'm stitting here thinking of how to give you a glimpse of God's holiness by purposely using seemingly "small" or seemingly "insignificant" scripture. I came up with the following:

"For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin." (Rom 14:23)

To a Perfect and Holy God, who's thoughts aren't like our thoughts and ways not like our ways; but instead infinitely higher, our doubt is an offense to Him. "Without faith it is impossible to please God."-Hebrews 11:6.

"So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." (1Cor 10:31)

God's Glory is bound up in the full satisfaction of His creatures, whereby He gets all the glory and they all the joy, which is the best of both worlds. Man's cheif end is to glory God (Isa 43:1-7) and to Know and enjoy Him forever (John 17:3).

"We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away." (Isa 64:6)

Which of us can say that we are good when compared to what God calls good, namely, Jesus? Jesus never once broke any of God's law. Sin is trasgrettion of God's Laws (the Ten Commandments), and we've all broken them. Like Christ, we have all done some good. But, unlike Christ, our good works we not always done with pure and pefect motives. Futhermore, unlike Christ, our good works were done apart from Christ (without faith) and therefore not done to the glory of God. Rather, they were done to our own glory. We, not He [God], received credit for it. The purpose for which we were created, i.e., to Glory God, is not fulfilled in self-glorification. Therefore, all good works apart from Christ are as "filty rags" or "a polluted garment." To live any other way than what we were designed to live for, namely the glory of God, is a waste of life and ultimately vain.

 

[iBrian]

You basically seem to be saying that people must feel worthless and disgusting in order to know God - and that those people who don't feel worthless and disgusting are therefore even more so?

Have I read that right?

 

[Faithfulservant]

Hi Brian

I think hes saying that when you know God really.. is when you feel how small in comparison and how corrupt your flesh truely is.. what your missing is that in spite of those things we are most precious in the eyes of our Lord and that He came to this earth and died so that we may have His righteousness and His purity and be Holy because He is Holy...

Silas has all the good words for how bad we are.. I challenge him to find good words for how good we become because of Jesus Christ.

 

[earl]

Well I for one Faithful Servant could largely agree we're "fuller," more "complete" when we act from some sort of divine awareness-the wonderful Christian notion of kenosis-self-emptying. Have to pour out some of the self to make room for God so to speak. But Silas' tone reminds me of stuff I hear from certain Christian camps reflective of their views of what God and/or the Christ is that never made sense to me. The premise from that camp looks like this: 1) God is a being 2) God created people to provide him with continual adoration. 3) God is a very insecure being that rquires constant reassurance. Same stuff I hear re doing things to glorify Christ-don't think he needs it either. Now on the other hand, when we are less full of ourselves/more full of God's good graces, a natural gratitude flows out of self and we revel/glorify in the wonders that seem to be about us. That's a whole nuther way of looking at the same thing. earl

 

[Silas]

I Brain,

If you do not understand, at least to some degree, your sins in juxtaposition to God's Holiness, you can never understand His Love and Mercy that He showed forth in the cross of Christ. If you continue to think and believe that you are a good guy when God says different, you would never be able to appreciate the glory of God in Christ. Just be honest with yourself. Have you broken His laws? If so, can you understand why a Perfect and Holy God who knows nothing but perfection can be offended by imperfection? If you fathom that, would consider the means by which God made justification for sinners and justice for His holy name - namely the cross of Christ? Consider these things. Try to get a glimpse of what it means to be so holy and perfect that sin, even of the most minute kind, is the most wicked and vile and evil and detestable thing ever to you. If you could just get a glimpse of that, then know God hates sin infinitely more. This is why the world needs Christ and not religion.

Think about it,

Silas

 

[wil]

I Brain,

Think about it,

Silas

Namaste Silas,

If it weren't for I Brian and his sweat, time, dedication, passion, effort, and all those other mods...this forum would not be here for you to tell him and others what he and we doesn't know, and how much work he and we still need to do...gratitude must come in there someplace.

Think about it,

wil

 

[Silas]

Namaste Silas,

If it weren't for I Brian and his sweat, dedication, time, dedication, passion, effort, and all those other mods...this forum would not be here for you to tell him and others what he and we doesn't know, and how much work he and we still need to do...gratitude must come in there someplace.

Think about it,

wil

"The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will." - Proverb 21:1

"A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.." - Proverb 16:9

If God didn't allow and give the ability to have this website available, I and the other Chrisitans here, wouldnt have been here to tell what some others did not know. Since God in his kindness has been pleased to allow this website, we should show Him gratitude and be thankful to Him.

Think about it,

Silas

 

[wil]

If God didn't allow and give the ability to have this website available, I and the other Chrisitans here, wouldnt have been here to tell what some others did not know. Since God in his kindness has been pleased to allow this website, we should show Him gratitude and be thankful to Him.

Think about it,

Silas

Alright then my brother, take a trip over to Evil Bible Home Page and thank G-d for all He is providing there. And all those thousands of porn sites that are taking advantage of young women around the world and making millions for their webmasters, are you showing Him gratitude for allowing and providing that ability as well?

I'm thinking about it,

wil

 

[lunamoth]

I Brain,

If you do not understand, at least to some degree, your sins in juxtaposition to God's Holiness, you can never understand His Love and Mercy that He showed forth in the cross of Christ. If you continue to think and believe that you are a good guy when God says different, you would never be able to appreciate the glory of God in Christ. Just be honest with yourself. Have you broken His laws? If so, can you understand why a Perfect and Holy God who knows nothing but perfection can be offended by imperfection? If you fathom that, would consider the means by which God made justification for sinners and justice for His holy name - namely the cross of Christ? Consider these things. Try to get a glimpse of what it means to be so holy and perfect that sin, even of the most minute kind, is the most wicked and vile and evil and detestable thing ever to you. If you could just get a glimpse of that, then know God hates sin infinitely more. This is why the world needs Christ and not religion.

Think about it,

Silas

Silas, For your edification, this is exactly the kind of post I refer to in the sticky above regarding this board, where one crosses over from discussing ideas and topics to making things personal. The purpose of this board, as for all the boards at CR, is to promote discussion and compare views about religion and spirituality in a repsectful manner...not to preach or prosyletize, and especially not to condemn or tell others how they are deficient in their religious/spiritual/philosophical views.

I recommend that before you press that 'submit' button on your posts, re-read that post and everywhere you've used the word 'you,' instead insert the word 'one,' or 'we,' or even 'I.' Perhaps you do this in your mind...but it does not come across in your posts.

Your views are welcome here as anywhere at CR, but please refrain from the personal comments.

--lunamoth

 

[Silas]

Alright then my brother, take a trip over to Evil Bible Home Page and thank G-d for all He is providing there. And all those thousands of porn sites that are taking advantage of young women around the world and making millions for their webmasters, are you showing Him gratitude for allowing and providing that ability as well?

I'm thinking about it,

wil

"Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it?" - Lamentations 3:37

God premits that which He hates, namely sinful actions of sinful people, in order that He may be glorified in His forgiveness of men and that He may be glorified in His Justice. God takes what we mean for evil and makes it for His and His people's good. Dwell on this amazing truth.

 

[wil]

God premits that which He hates, namely sinful actions of sinful people, in order that He may be glorified in His forgiveness of men and that He may be glorified in His Justice. God takes what we mean for evil and makes it for His and His people's good. Dwell on this amazing truth.

Namaste Silas,

Quite similar to my understanding, especially the last line. G-d is good, therefor all of creation is good. However your previous statement where G-d allowed I brian to create and maintain this site, and now permits evilbible.com to operate I contend with. If G-d allows and permits both Good and Evil, if G-d allows and permits all...than he allows and permits nothing. I see no separation only oneness. While I am not in a position to understand why or how it is all good...I just know it is....and in time we will learn more.

But I still chuckle at you "stitting here thinking of how to give you a glimpse of God's holiness by purposely using seemingly "small" or seemingly "insignificant" scripture."

It just seems funny that you would think that we would believe that this is how this thread started. Now I could be wrong, but it seems to me you had a few lines of scripture you thought us over on the liberal board needed desperately and then came up with an introduction for it.

Now I am wondering how you are so clairvoyant to say " Futhermore, unlike Christ, our good works were done apart from Christ (without faith) and therefore not done to the glory of God. Rather, they were done to our own glory. We, not He [God], received credit for it. The purpose for which we were created, i.e., to Glory God, is not fulfilled in self-glorification."

I don't understand your reasoning to insist all good works are not done by folks who are walking with Christ and that we don't give glory to our creator. I don't know whose bush you are beating here. I travel with many who's mantra is 'there is only one power and one presence in my life and affairs, only one source for my supply, G-d the good, omnipotent.'

 

[Silas]

wil

Quite similar to my understanding, especially the last line. G-d is good, therefor all of creation is good.

I do not agree that man as a created being is actually good. Rather, I hold the view of Jesus and born again Christians in that after the fall of man, man's whole nature, i.e., his mind, heart, will, conscience, etc., became ravished by sin and therefore as a result, man became evil.

However your previous statement where G-d allowed I brian to create and maintain this site, and now permits evilbible.com to operate I contend with. If G-d allows and permits both Good and Evil, if G-d allows and permits all...than he allows and permits nothing. I see no separation only oneness. While I am not in a position to understand why or how it is all good...I just know it is....and in time we will learn more.

The reason there is anything, good or bad, is because God permits it. We have our whole being in Him. If he wanted to, he could have stopped what occured at Sept. 11, 2001. If he was pleased to, he could have never allowed slavery, or Hitler to rise to power. In fact, if He was pleased to allow Justice to be done without showing forth his mercy, Jesus would have never died for sins and we'd have no hope.

But I still chuckle at you "stitting here thinking of how to give you a glimpse of God's holiness by purposely using seemingly "small" or seemingly "insignificant" scripture."
It just seems funny that you would think that we would believe that this is how this thread started. Now I could be wrong, but it seems to me you had a few lines of scripture you thought us over on the liberal board needed desperately and then came up with an introduction for it.

In the case of any good news, one must first understand and understand well enough, the bad news. The bad news is that we've all broken God's Laws and are indebted to His justice. God is too holy than to allow sinners to be justified without having justice met. There is no amount of good works we can do that can make void or take away the fact that we've already broken His laws and are indebted to His justice - our fine must be paid. The good news is that God showed His love to us that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. If we repent from our sins and trust in Christ alone (not in ourselves), God will forgive us on the grounds that Christ paid our fine and the law will be lifted from our heads. God's wrath will be appeased and we will be justified.

Now I am wondering how you are so clairvoyant to say " Futhermore, unlike Christ, our good works were done apart from Christ (without faith) and therefore not done to the glory of God. Rather, they were done to our own glory. We, not He [God], received credit for it. The purpose for which we were created, i.e., to Glory God, is not fulfilled in self-glorification."
I don't understand your reasoning to insist all good works are not done by folks who are walking with Christ and that we don't give glory to our creator. I don't know whose bush you are beating here. I travel with many who's mantra is 'there is only one power and one presence in my life and affairs, only one source for my supply, G-d the good, omnipotent.'

Sorry, I think you misunderstand me. I should have been more clear - my bad. What I was trying to say is that "we cannot please God without faith" as the Bible says. Furthermore, to qoute again from scripture, "anything apart from faith is sin." Therefore, the reality of the matter is that apart from faith in Christ, we have done nothing but sin. Our whole lives are sinful because we do things, even good things, not in Christ and not to the glory of God. The scriptures are clear that we ought to do everything to the glory of God. "Whatever you do, whether you eat or drink, do it to the glory of God." Jesus implimented this in his life and if we would follow Him, we too must do it. Apart from Christ and apart from faith, our good works, even our very best at its zenith, are likened to filty menstration rags, God says. So, therefore, it comes down to our belief. If you believe you can please God apart from faith in Christ and have Him honor your good works as indeed good, then you may make that choice. However, if you see that scripture is right and that since God is our creator, provider, and sustainer, etc., then we ought to look to please Him first above all others, even, as he said, "family, friends, etc."

 

[iBrian]

I challenge him to find good words for how good we become because of Jesus Christ.

I like the sound of that.

If you do not understand, at least to some degree, your sins in juxtaposition to God's Holiness, you can never understand His Love and Mercy that He showed forth in the cross of Christ.

Indeed, I can't - I don't believe there is any "sin" for me to be "saved" from.

I've transcended reality and been humbled before the awesome infinite majesty of God. In those experiences was always a message of love and peace and goodwill - never did I hear a message that told me I was awful and destestable.

Perhaps you feel you are a detestable person because you have done detestable things in your past, or else people have pushed on their judgement to make you feel detestable.

Either way, if the only message you carry is that we are all hideously imperfect and should suffer for it, then your message is that God's Creation is a blasphemy. I can't accept that.

Perhaps we can help you - perhaps we can show you that you don't have to feel detestable before God.

Just perhaps we can show you that there's more to basic spirituality, a faith in religion, a belief in Christianity, and the words in the Bible than detestation.

 

[Silas]

I like the sound of that.



Indeed, I can't - I don't believe there is any "sin" for me to be "saved" from.

I've transcended reality and been humbled before the awesome infinite majesty of God. In those experiences was always a message of love and peace and goodwill - never did I hear a message that told me I was awful and destestable.

Perhaps you feel you are a detestable person because you have done detestable things in your past, or else people have pushed on their judgement to make you feel detestable.

Either way, if the only message you carry is that we are all hideously imperfect and should suffer for it, then your message is that God's Creation is a blasphemy. I can't accept that.

Perhaps we can help you - perhaps we can show you that you don't have to feel detestable before God.

Just perhaps we can show you that there's more to basic spirituality, a faith in religion, a belief in Christianity, and the words in the Bible than detestation.

Hi I Brain,

I just wanted to say the following: If you could by God's Laws and by the lifestyle of Jesus still claim to be sinless, I worry for you bro. 1Cor. 1:18 says that "the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing." Is the fact that Jesus died to save sinners foolishness to you? If so, then let this be a reminder of how truthful the scriptures are! Everything hinges on this question, Brian: Are you a sinner? Christ came to save sinners and sinners alone. If you cannot be honest with yourself by judging yourself in light of what God says is good, namely Jesus and what is reflected in His laws (Ten Commandments), you will not be able to appriciate Christ who calls people evil and then gave His life as a ransom to save them. Your unwillingness to humble yourself and admit your need for forgiveness (if unchanged), will result in heardness of heart whereby you will die in that state. And, it is those who die in that state, they will face the fierce wrath of the Almight God. But, why will you die? Why not just be honest with yourself and let God's laws humble you? He offers forgivenss to anyone who would come to Jesus in Repentance and Faith. Why not repent and believe upon the Savior? Why will you die? While you live, God stands to offer you forgivenss through Christ. Come to the Savior that you may both Know and enjoy God forever.

 

[iBrian]

Silas, if you are a human being, and comapre yourself to God, all you're going to find is that you are a human being. If you find that makes you detestable then that's your opinion to make, but don't be surprised if not everyone shares that opinion.

Also, you might want to look twice at this site - it's an interfaith community, where people come to discuss religion. Some people may even try to learn something. I know many do without even trying. It tries to be as inclusive as possible - what people believe isn't anywhere near as important as how they behave.

Point is, we get people of every faith through here declaring that they know TRUTH and everyone else needs to take that opinion on board. They usually have to move along, because they clearly don't have an interest in CR as an interfaith community.

I've received various complaints about your witnessing and judgement of others - the above post shows you have very little concern about the opinions of others, other than to convert them to your way of thinking.

Your choice is to treat CR as a place where you can respect and discuss differing opinions of faith, or else move on and find somewhere else on the net to use as your soapbox.

 

[Silas]

You didnt consider what I said. Why?

 

[juantoo3]

You didnt consider what I said. Why?

With all of the sincere brotherly love I can muster...why don't you consider anything anyone else here has tried to tell you?

 

[Silas]

I have considered what you guys said. You havent been gracious to do the same. How come?

 

[wil]

I have considered what you guys said. You havent been gracious to do the same. How come?

Seems to me a number of people have considered what you said and responded. I'm perplexed that you don't see their responses. This same thing appears to happen to you on other such threads, despite responses and discussion you continue to change the topic. How come?

 

[Silas]

Seems to me a number of people have considered what you said and responded. I'm perplexed that you don't see their responses. This same thing appears to happen to you on other such threads, despite responses and discussion you continue to change the topic. How come?

Dont know. Lets find out why, help me out. What have I said concerning this topic that you have considered?